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Developer Discussions: Alpha 17


Roland

Developer Discussions: Alpha 17  

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  1. 1. Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

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But I prefer a restriction based on hard work. Smething like: it is incredibly hard to get all perks, but you can do it, if you put in enough work.

 

Sure. I'm not arguing against that. I'm arguing against kingkrieg's point about being unable to make concrete. Personally, I think it would be cool in this new system if anybody (with enough xp) could make a concrete mixer, but their lack of skills/perks means that you have to use significantly more ingredients to make concrete (or it takes longer to mix or it takes longer to dry). That still takes the "incredibly hard" part of what you want while still not letting you do everything well.

 

I will conclude by saying that I love Skyrim's system (though I think it became cheesy when you could just continue to level up Smithing and get points to spend in Destruction); but I'm also glad for TFP's system to be a little different.

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You could also go into the xml and tweak the amount of points you get per level if you so wish to counteract the issue you are seeing.

 

i really wish i could do that but i'm not computer friendly at all. I can turn them on and play a game, use mods that are steamshop. I have to get the kids to put in other mods that have to go places in specific files if not steamshop. I am looking forward to the new alpha and I'm perfectly fine with waiting till its done. I even don't mind waiting to make up my mind on how the changes to see the outcome on SP. I was just giving my opinion from the last alphas where I watched me go from playing 20-30 hours a week on my own to no time on my own and thought I should speak up, Because I care about this game. I may not post alot but i read posts daily to keep in the loop. I may not be making the game but i've had it since day of release on steam and really believe in this game. For me its my favourite in my game list. But when it lost all fun for what I bought it for SP action I felt i had to speak if you all know what I mean.

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But I prefer a restriction based on hard work. Smething like: it is incredibly hard to get all perks, but you can do it, if you put in enough work.

 

I don't get the fascination with "all the perks" anyway. Nobody needs all the shotgun perks, all the rifle perks, all the pistol perks, all the knife perks, all the blunt perks...maybe all of one set, or if the central part of your playstyle is fighting, all of a gun set and all of a melee set, but who really needs all of all sets?

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I absolutely agree, part of what makes games like skyrim fun is that theres no limit on how you can grow, and fits perfectly with the single player narrative, while being "restrictive to a class" works in mmos like Warcraft and MAY have a bit of variety on 7DTD multiplayer, it should NOT be the scope of development, in here, you have to become the ULTIMATE SURVIVALIST, and having restrictions like this will ultimately end in a poor experience, specially on the solo survival, since you may be unable to use something thats on your perk list because you had to allocate it somewhere else. lets just say, i cant make concrete because i put all my perks on water and food consumption, so now all parts of my game i wont be able to reinforce blocks because i made "a mistake" and now i cant maintain a base on advanced night hordes, or because i put my perks on bows now i cant use a shotgun as adequately, nor maintain it... this is NOT adequate.

 

Please, do not implement this kind of restrictions, as i said, they work on massive mmos like warcraft, but not on here, i dont want to play a restrictive game, i want to be the survivalist, not a withered mongrel that crafts bikes but cant even maintain a gun becuasei made "poor choices" that actually were good on other times in the game. No cookie cutters please!

 

But having all skills IS the ultimate cookie cutter build (same every time). No point in choices

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I absolutely agree, part of what makes games like skyrim fun is that theres no limit on how you can grow, and fits perfectly with the single player narrative, while being "restrictive to a class" works in mmos like Warcraft and MAY have a bit of variety on 7DTD multiplayer, it should NOT be the scope of development, in here, you have to become the ULTIMATE SURVIVALIST, and having restrictions like this will ultimately end in a poor experience, specially on the solo survival, since you may be unable to use something thats on your perk list because you had to allocate it somewhere else. lets just say, i cant make concrete because i put all my perks on water and food consumption, so now all parts of my game i wont be able to reinforce blocks because i made "a mistake" and now i cant maintain a base on advanced night hordes, or because i put my perks on bows now i cant use a shotgun as adequately, nor maintain it... this is NOT adequate.

 

Please, do not implement this kind of restrictions, as i said, they work on massive mmos like warcraft, but not on here, i dont want to play a restrictive game, i want to be the survivalist, not a withered mongrel that crafts bikes but cant even maintain a gun becuasei made "poor choices" that actually were good on other times in the game. No cookie cutters please!

 

I dunno.. i mean, the survivor can already craft perfectly aerodynamic arrows while fighting off hordes of zombies, can wrench a tire and pull out an engine as well as countless amounts of short iron pipes. Can shovel all the way down to bedrock, wait a few seconds then stamina is fully regained to sprint for ages. There's a lot you want your survivor to do. Having class restrictions will probably make it feel more authentic.

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I agree on the fact that limiting the skills and perks, you can get, isn't good. TFP justified this by saying that it forces the player to make choices. Do I want to play like this? Or do I want to play like that? Here is why I think that this is wrong.

 

In Skyrim, one of the most famous games in the world, you can maximize everything, there is no restriction. I played more than one game as different characters, one for example as an archer, one mage, one warrior.. also, guess what, I played one as a mixture of everything, and I enjoyed it. I won't be able to do this in A17 (unless I mod it, which I will do). So they will not force us in any more vary gameplay. They will just limit our choices.

 

Having no cap allows you to play as A, B or C, or everything. Having a cap only allows you to play as A, B or C. You are not enhancing gameplay, you are restricting it.

 

thank you so much better said than me.

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I agree on the fact that limiting the skills and perks, you can get, isn't good. TFP justified this by saying that it forces the player to make choices. Do I want to play like this? Or do I want to play like that? Here is why I think that this is wrong.

 

In Skyrim, one of the most famous games in the world, you can maximize everything, there is no restriction. I played more than one game as different characters, one for example as an archer, one mage, one warrior.. also, guess what, I played one as a mixture of everything, and I enjoyed it. I won't be able to do this in A17 (unless I mod it, which I will do). So they will not force us in any more vary gameplay. They will just limit our choices.

 

Having no cap allows you to play as A, B or C, or everything. Having a cap only allows you to play as A, B or C. You are not enhancing gameplay, you are restricting it.

 

Skyrim ive played thru in about 40ish hours. Felt no need to go back. 7 Days I have around 1000 hours in and waiting on hundreds more when A17 comes. To compare the 2 games is a disservice to 7 days.

 

What kind of an argument is picking one aspect of a popular game and saying 7 days should do it that way just because that game did? In World of Warcraft which is more popular than skyrim your character is limited by class and skill trees. Gotta admit tho, Im looking forward to flying animal mounts in 7 days to die, and 40 man raids, and PVP battlegrounds, and monthly subscription fees, because you know WoW is more popular and has those.

 

Skyrim: In the running for most overrated game of all time.

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As I said before, art is not holding up the release of the game. Each programmer is finishing features and fixing bugs. So far today, 16 different programming changes were made.

 

I currently have 30 bugs/issues assigned to me, about half of which should be fixed before A17e. All the other programmers and designers are in the same boat.

 

What is the funniest bug you have encountered so far? Anything close to Battlefields "stretchy neck man"? Look it up sometime if you havent seen it, hillarious

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I agree on the fact that limiting the skills and perks, you can get, isn't good. TFP justified this by saying that it forces the player to make choices. Do I want to play like this? Or do I want to play like that? Here is why I think that this is wrong.

 

In Skyrim, one of the most famous games in the world, you can maximize everything, there is no restriction. I played more than one game as different characters, one for example as an archer, one mage, one warrior.. also, guess what, I played one as a mixture of everything, and I enjoyed it. I won't be able to do this in A17 (unless I mod it, which I will do). So they will not force us in any more vary gameplay. They will just limit our choices.

 

Having no cap allows you to play as A, B or C, or everything. Having a cap only allows you to play as A, B or C. You are not enhancing gameplay, you are restricting it.

 

Some may agree with you on this and that's cool but, i hate games that let you max everything, hence why i never leveled past 40 in skyrim. Build variety is a good thing in an rpg in my opinion. Especially in a mp rpg.

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What is the funniest bug you have encountered so far? Anything close to Battlefields "stretchy neck man"? Look it up sometime if you havent seen it, hillarious

 

quite a few alphas ago so not revealing anything... when minibike first came into game... we had a build where the damn minibike would actually chase the players.. :)

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I think ultimately this "to max or not max" discussion revolves around whether you're playing SP or MP

 

When you play MP with friends it matters less because each person can max different skillsets and its fun to play different roles, but that's pretty much useless in strictly PVP or SP.

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quite a few alphas ago so not revealing anything... when minibike first came into game... we had a build where the damn minibike would actually chase the players.. :)

 

I think the vulture will be doing that in A17 to a wounded player! Hmmm, I now have a plan on getting unlimited feathers... :)

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quite a few alphas ago so not revealing anything... when minibike first came into game... we had a build where the damn minibike would actually chase the players.. :)

 

Fun Pimps next game: 7D2Maximum Overdrive.. The zombies are just Animatronics ;)

heh, it sounds fun actually :)

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My first instinct was to leave this alone. I have a strong feeling on it but after reading here I think I'm wasting my time, as I think TFP have already made up their minds. But screw it, I going to say it anyway.

 

I absolutely hate the squeeze being put on skills and perks. I'm a mostly sp guy and this only hurts people going it solo. I'm not the kind of guy that needs all perks and skills maxed, there are lots of perks i don't take. But there are a group of perks I feel we should be able to get, if we work hard enough at it. The solution of just restarting is a really bad one imho. I work too hard, grind too much and put in too much time to be forced to start over because of that group of perks I never got to enjoy.

 

And don't think I missed that little tidbit about needing to put points to strength just to get bag space we already had in alpha 16. So you're limiting our bag space and requiring, very limited, skill points to get that bag space back? Please let me know if i'm missing something?

 

Now I'll admit I haven't played alpha 17 obviously but this concern is more than justified based off everything TFP have said.

 

The squeaky wheel gets the grease, that was proven with the removal of the zombie hp bars. Well I'm squeaking.

 

Please don't regard this post as hostile. I'm sure I'll love alpha 17 either way. Just voicing my concerns.

 

Currently you start the game with 40 slots (including the toolbelt). In A17 you will start the game with 35 slots (including the toolbelt). By spending 3 points you will gain six slots and already be above what you are used to and the rest will be gravy. This is largely a preference issue and TFP can't solve for all preferences other than making the xmls available which they have.

 

MY preference would be to start out with only the top row available and then progress from there. Allowing 3 rows at the start is too much imho. Players should have to resort to using strategic stashes at the start until they progress to larger sizes. I also think a nice alternative would have been to purchase slots at the trader to represent buying a larger pack. That would free up skill points for other things as well. I'm likely going to learn how to mod the locked inventory slots so I can start at a much leaner inventory count and then change the number of slots that each point of strength will unlock so I can still get to the top if I wish. Others may want to change it so you start with more or maybe even start with the max if they don't enjoy inventory management and then they wouldn't even have to spend points in that area. I think TFP chose a good middle ground.

 

Can I just throw in my two cents here?

As for me, i'm more MP rather than SP, and imho zombie hp bars were nice. First of all, from the beginning of the game it's very important to understand, how strong Z is, because nobody wants to waste time on strong bosses with axe and 5 arrows. But later, when you have good firearms, you and your server friends just want some fun killing stronger Z and getting better loot (on most servers there are customizable Z, so you can't learn all of the stats). So, imho, it will be perfect if devs give us a switchable option of zombie hp bars, so everyone will configure the game as he wants himself.

 

PS. Sorry for bad English, doing my best to explain

pps. Kage848, nice videos :cocksure:

 

The HP bars for enemies are still implemented in the game as of now. If you go into debug mode they are there for every enemy. Now they might change this but I think they probably won't as it is a really useful tool for development. We will have to wait until people who know what they're doing take a look but it might be an extremely simple toggle to get them to appear again during normal play.

 

I do have to put in a plug, however, for my own preferences once again... Having played both ways it is much better without them. TFP have made changes such that all the cheesy ways that allowed you to know for sure that a zombie was finally dead are gone. You literally have no idea if it is going to stand back up or maybe take a swing at you if you come up close to bash its head a few more times. It is very creepy and one of my favorite differences between pre-A17 and post-A17.

 

So to recap, you can press F1, type dm, and then ESC and play your game with HP bars if you want, possibly be able to mod them in, or play it like a survival horror game and just wonder if that zombie you "killed" behind you might possibly be standing up right now....

 

To be fair, the people on this forum represent the die-hard gamers with most of them having over at least 250 hours of gameplay.

They do not want this HP bar because it would break immersion.

However they forget that 90% still plays a game, not a Zombie Killer Simulator

 

To be really fair, that 90% are usually happy to just play whatever automatically downloads onto their computer and consider playing a game in any way other than how the developers intended it as sacrilege....

 

@Roland , please .

can you check the bosses (legendary biker, worker ,animal boss grace , etc) if they are just pool of health or they have different effects . can they jump higher , can they spit fire :D . running in speed of bullet , etc ;D

 

Nothing will be revealed about bosses. You will have to experience them for yourself. That is all.

 

I agree on the fact that limiting the skills and perks, you can get, isn't good. TFP justified this by saying that it forces the player to make choices. Do I want to play like this? Or do I want to play like that? Here is why I think that this is wrong.

 

In Skyrim, one of the most famous games in the world, you can maximize everything, there is no restriction. I played more than one game as different characters, one for example as an archer, one mage, one warrior.. also, guess what, I played one as a mixture of everything, and I enjoyed it. I won't be able to do this in A17 (unless I mod it, which I will do). So they will not force us in any more vary gameplay. They will just limit our choices.

 

Having no cap allows you to play as A, B or C, or everything. Having a cap only allows you to play as A, B or C. You are not enhancing gameplay, you are restricting it.

 

Here is the error in this argument. Just the knowledge that you can eventually get everything eliminates choices due to the fact that gamers will always gravitate to the most efficient and preferred pathway. They will always get their same favorites first because there is zero risk and they can get what they consider the lesser perks later on if they feel like it. Compare that to a game where there are several great choices but you can only be strongest in 3 of them and average in 4 but you are really curious how the game plays with some of those 4 maxed out. That means the next time you play because you know you can't have it all you will choose from the second set and settle for being average in the first set.

 

The knowledge that you can't get everything also makes each choice a more considered and tougher choice. Why spend more than a moment's thought on what you purchase if you can purchase everything eventually? Games with tough and interesting choices are better than games with weak or uninteresting choices and choosing (A or B) is always more interesting than (A then B) or (B then A).

 

Finally, this game is not, imo, about being the ultimate superman survivor. It is about surviving against the world presented by the game and having some weakness that you must deal with while surviving make the game way more interesting than having no weaknesses. Some people play with the creative menu enabled and have fun but I can't play that way. Giving myself a sniper rifle with five stacks of ammo is fun at first but it gets boring fast.

 

Again this is a preference issue so nobody is wrong about how they like to play. Thankfully the devs have given us the means to redesign it for varying play preferences.

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Currently you start the game with 40 slots (including the toolbelt). In A17 you will start the game with 35 slots (including the toolbelt). By spending 3 points you will gain six slots and already be above what you are used to and the rest will be gravy. This is largely a preference issue and TFP can't solve for all preferences other than making the xmls available which they have.

 

MY preference would be to start out with only the top row available and then progress from there. Allowing 3 rows at the start is too much imho. Players should have to resort to using strategic stashes at the start until they progress to larger sizes. I also think a nice alternative would have been to purchase slots at the trader to represent buying a larger pack. That would free up skill points for other things as well. I'm likely going to learn how to mod the locked inventory slots so I can start at a much leaner inventory count and then change the number of slots that each point of strength will unlock so I can still get to the top if I wish. Others may want to change it so you start with more or maybe even start with the max if they don't enjoy inventory management and then they wouldn't even have to spend points in that area. I think TFP chose a good middle ground.

 

 

 

The HP bars for enemies are still implemented in the game as of now. If you go into debug mode they are there for every enemy. Now they might change this but I think they probably won't as it is a really useful tool for development. We will have to wait until people who know what they're doing take a look but it might be an extremely simple toggle to get them to appear again during normal play.

 

I do have to put in a plug, however, for my own preferences once again... Having played both ways it is much better without them. TFP have made changes such that all the cheesy ways that allowed you to know for sure that a zombie was finally dead are gone. You literally have no idea if it is going to stand back up or maybe take a swing at you if you come up close to bash its head a few more times. It is very creepy and one of my favorite differences between pre-A17 and post-A17.

 

So to recap, you can press F1, type dm, and then ESC and play your game with HP bars if you want, possibly be able to mod them in, or play it like a survival horror game and just wonder if that zombie you "killed" behind you might possibly be standing up right now....

 

 

 

To be really fair, that 90% are usually happy to just play whatever automatically downloads onto their computer and consider playing a game in any way other than how the developers intended it as sacrilege....

 

 

 

Nothing will be revealed about bosses. You will have to experience them for yourself. That is all.

 

 

 

Here is the error in this argument. Just the knowledge that you can eventually get everything eliminates choices due to the fact that gamers will always gravitate to the most efficient and preferred pathway. They will always get their same favorites first because there is zero risk and they can get what they consider the lesser perks later on if they feel like it. Compare that to a game where there are several great choices but you can only be strongest in 3 of them and average in 4 but you are really curious how the game plays with some of those 4 maxed out. That means the next time you play because you know you can't have it all you will choose from the second set and settle for being average in the first set.

 

The knowledge that you can't get everything also makes each choice a more considered and tougher choice. Why spend more than a moment's thought on what you purchase if you can purchase everything eventually? Games with tough and interesting choices are better than games with weak or uninteresting choices and choosing (A or B) is always more interesting than (A then B) or (B then A).

 

Finally, this game is not, imo, about being the ultimate superman survivor. It is about surviving against the world presented by the game and having some weakness that you must deal with while surviving make the game way more interesting than having no weaknesses. Some people play with the creative menu enabled and have fun but I can't play that way. Giving myself a sniper rifle with five stacks of ammo is fun at first but it gets boring fast.

 

Again this is a preference issue so nobody is wrong about how they like to play. Thankfully the devs have given us the means to redesign it for varying play preferences.

 

ya, I expect every server to right away mod it so you can go past the level cap and get everything so there is longer term play. No one wants to stick around when they are maxed out and unable to further progress... since we sometimes plays hundreds if not thousands of hours on a map, getting to level 200 is easy, but now sounds like they are trying to limit things. Might not be what we want, or at the least would like to option to choose this for myself.

 

I would like it if the "backpack" was a piece of clothing you wear or carry. With a slight minimum if you have no backpack or belt on. Like you can carry whats in your hands, like the first row or something only. If you want a belt and backpad, make one from grass.... then equip it, then get a better belt and backpack in the long run. Like a webbing from the military might be even better than a tool belt from a workshop and a backpack from a survival camping kit might be the most modular. They could give different set of bonuses for each type of item equipped too. I would like this much better than what we have now. I think many would enjoy the more customization, and the visual changes it brings too.

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I understand how many players want to max everything, but from my perspective it is not absolutely necessary to do so. Perhaps the solution to the points cap built into the game would be for really difficult quests later (after level 175?) in the game where the quest giver will "teach" you a new skill.

 

This wouldn't be in vanilla, most likely, but with how the Pimps are making this game modable, I can see infinite possibilities. This would also keep long term players busy trying to max their skills and keep them exploring the world.

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@Developers or Illuminated Ones

 

How many block IDs does Alpha 17 support?

 

You're asking the wrong question, Marty.... ;)

 

 

giphy.gif

 

 

But I prefer a restriction based on hard work. Smething like: it is incredibly hard to get all perks, but you can do it, if you put in enough work.

 

Starting over and creating a completely different and distinctive character with its own set of strengths and weaknesses is the hard work that eventually allows you to experience the maximum benefits of every skill and perk. Bam!

 

i really wish i could do that but i'm not computer friendly at all....

 

And what would YOU say to someone who said, "I'm not a computer guy so that's why I only play games that come on a CD. Steam confuses me and I don't get how to activate keys or do the whole digital download thing. I've always played my games using disks of some kind and I'm too old to change that now"?

 

Wouldn't you wonder how someone could gate themselves away from a ton of fun over a gate that while unfamiliar to them is really not that difficult to walk through? It is the same with xml editing. It is unfamiliar but you don't need to understand programming to make changes. All you need to know how to do is use the basic functions of a word processing program like copy, paste, and delete. Using Steam to verify the integrity of your files is you're ultimate eraser to return your game to vanilla if you make a mistake. There are many tutorials and people in the modding forum who are stellar about holding your hand and helping you to learn. Don't create a closed gate to your fun. If you kids know how have them show you.

 

I think ultimately this "to max or not max" discussion revolves around whether you're playing SP or MP

 

When you play MP with friends it matters less because each person can max different skillsets and its fun to play different roles, but that's pretty much useless in strictly PVP or SP.

 

<shrug> Maybe with other games but I don't see it that way for 7 Days to Die. As I've said before, I can't think of one aspect of gameplay in 7 Days to Die that can't be enjoyed if you don't max out everything. There are multiple means to whatever you want to do. Just because some modern games call themselves RPGs and then let the players get everything it doesn't mean they really are RPGs. Classic RPGs ensure that a character will be strong in some ways and weak in others because that is a more interesting role to play. The game is still tilted towards SP as it just becomes way way way too easy with MP-Cooperative. Weaknesses, notwithstanding, you can easily survive and thrive in this game as a lone survivor.

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I would like it if the "backpack" was a piece of clothing you wear or carry. With a slight minimum if you have no backpack or belt on. Like you can carry whats in your hands, like the first row or something only. If you want a belt and backpad, make one from grass.... then equip it, then get a better belt and backpack in the long run. Like a webbing from the military might be even better than a tool belt from a workshop and a backpack from a survival camping kit might be the most modular. They could give different set of bonuses for each type of item equipped too. I would like this much better than what we have now. I think many would enjoy the more customization, and the visual changes it brings too.

 

I would absolutely LOVE that. Almost kidn of like PUBG, with better quality backpacks = more slots. add in various clothings that add in slots for inv. gotta balance between temp or inv space

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I think the specialization of skills is going to be a good thing for A17. In the real world, if a zombie apocalypse happened like this, everyone who survived wouldn't be able to do everything. If, for example, there were a contractor, doctor, and police officer who survived, who do you think will be better at building a base, using a pistol, and making medkits? Sure everyone could learn from each other but would never reach the skill of the person who was trained.

 

It adds a lot of strategy to the game. It makes choices matter. It will make co-op play a lot more fun instead of the endless amounts of pvp servers. Think about yourself and what would happen if it were real. What are your skills. How would you use your own skills to survive? You wouldn't be able to be the best at everything, you would use what you know. If you were a big, strong dude who has never used a firearm, you would probably go for a melee weapon and be badass with it compared to another guy who spent all his time working in a lab somewhere.

 

Classes/specialization will add so much to the game, not take things away. You won't be able to do everything, so figure out how to survive with what you can do. Make choices based on what your playstyle is.

 

People always post about the game being too easy, having everything, etc. Well here ya go. Try to have everything now Mr. Elite.

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How long until about half your bugs are fixed? :)

 

If it was only that simple. While I'm fixing those issues, new ones will get added and I will find more broken stuff on my own.

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Roland..........

 

When A17 comes out will we be able to use random gen map and get all POI's, I remember back on A15 some of the POI's were only avil in navezgane map.. ie "Stadium"....................

 

There will always be special POI's that are unique to Navezgane but they are very few. 99% of the POI's will be common to both Nav and RGW. All of the new level designed buildings are coming to both.

 

Hi

 

i have been following this thread for a while now, but since one of my questions have not been asked, i decided to become a member and make this my first post.

 

 

In the artwork for A17 there is a wolf or dog with armor on it.

 

In the video concerning the artwork, it is said that we will be able to tam them and use them, is this correct?

 

This is my all time favorite game ever, and i can not wait for A17.

 

But I promise to be :02.47-tranquillity: and thank you for all your hard work:smile-new:

 

Joel did show those things as concepts but you'll notice they did not make it onto the first page of features coming to A17. Those ideas are still just conceptual and not much actual work has been done to add them to the game. The timeline on things like pets, NPC followers, blueprints, and communities is not known. Some of that may not come until after the gold release of the game. TFP plans to continue to update the game for at least two years after the release (so 1-2 updates haha) and right now they are focused on a specific set of features that they need to include in order to call the game shipable.

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Roland, Roland, Roland: "Nothing will be revealed about bosses. You will have to experience them for yourself. That is all."

 

I, like 90% or more of all players, will be watching streamers get the crap scared out of them on their first Boss fight.

 

They will all be called "Screamers" after that and someone will make a music video using all their screams of horror when they first fight a Boss (when I say "fight", I mean them getting splattered across the room!).

 

SOOO, you might as well tell us (me) what terrible things the boss's can do.

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