Hybrid learning system (learn by reading AND doing)

[treebranch007]

Dear Fun Pimps and Survivors alike, 

 

I feel like somewhere this idea might have been brought up, but what about the possibility of reintegrating the old "learn by doing" mechanic into the current "learn by looting/reading" crafting level system. I've heard a lot of people go back and forth between which system was the best, and how either one can make or break the game. I personally really enjoy the magazine, but it doesn't always fit well into many players style of playing, especially when it comes to base building and fighting the never-ending hordes of zombies. 

 

My solution would be to create a hybrid crafting system that utilizes both reading magazines and doing to increase your ability to craft higher tier weapons and tools. For example, using harvesting tools (axe, pickaxe, shovel, ect) would slowly increase your "Harvesting Tools" level thus increasing your ability to craft higher tier harvesting tools from the "Crafting" section of the "Skills" menu, or cooking food/drinks would slowly level up "Food" from the "Crafting" levels page. This of course would have deminishing returns the higher level you are in the respective trait. I feel that this would really compliment the current learn by reading/looting mechanic as magazines would function as a quick level up in its respective category. This would not however add skill points into each category under their respective attributes such as mining adding into "Miner 69'er" or "Mother Load". Those would still need to be purchased with skill points via leveling up. 

 

Fun Pimps, you made both systems and they both work beautifully! I really feel if you added them together you would create the perfect system (and also get people to stop complaining about how they hate reading magazines to do everything)! I play on both pc and PS5, and have been an avid player since 2016. You have created the best zombie survival game I have ever played, and 1.0 is no exception! I think there is always room for improvement and I think this could have a significantly positive impact on the game without being significantly resource intensive to complete. Thank you for reading all this and keep surviving out there! 

Edited August 31 by treebranch007
Addition of greetings (see edit history)

[GuardianReaper0]

While I was originally more of a fan of “learn by doing” the magazine system is growing on me. 
 

I think their intention is more to push players to interact with one another, hence the books. 
 

Also, if you could level it just by doing it, you’d have the issue like the old one (console) where someone would just sit in a corner for 4 days straight, crafting stone axes, and other similar situations.

 

I think there may be room for improvement, but the old system is not it.

 

Perhaps instead they could add additional levels to the challenges page, and more challenges overall, relating to various skills, with which the reward is skill books.

[SuperNinja55]

On 8/31/2024 at 4:56 PM, GuardianReaper0 said:

Also, if you could level it just by doing it, you’d have the issue like the old one (console) where someone would just sit in a corner for 4 days straight, crafting stone axes, and other similar situations.

didn't treebranch say "using" tools, not "crafting" tools? I dislike the magazine system, but I hated the constant crafting more.

How I'd go about it
If you were to use said tools and say, idk, every previous number of blocks broken times 1.5 (rounded up) you got a point, that'd be great.
Like you start out needing to break 10 blocks for your first point, then 15, then 23, then 35, 53, 80, 120, 180, 270, 405, so on and so forth with diminishing returns.
As for firearm/melee skills: the more kills with that respective weapon type, the more you can make better ones. Again, with diminishing returns.

You'd have to balance this by nerfing book loot, and have to make the diminishing returns from doing actions quite steep, but it means you don't have to go out and loot a ton of POIs just to find that 1 book you need to make a tier 6 M60. Just go kill like 500 zombies with your tier 5 and you'll get that point eventually.

Once again, this is NOT learning by crafting a million stone axes, but by using the tools and getting better at them.
I think this is an amazing idea by treebranch007

[TWORDY]

Learn by Doing + Crafting by finding new books as gating might work for me. But crafting by spamming items is a complete no no no. The current system is some sort of a compromise (not the best, not the worst), but I think that too many books are required to be found. Slashing the number of books to be brought in might be a good start. I am not a fan of how the books are currently deterministic and based on the player's activity. 

[GuardianReaper0]

2 hours ago, TWORDY said:

Learn by Doing + Crafting by finding new books as gating might work for me. But crafting by spamming items is a complete no no no. The current system is some sort of a compromise (not the best, not the worst), but I think that too many books are required to be found. Slashing the number of books to be brought in might be a good start. I am not a fan of how the books are currently deterministic and based on the player's activity. 

I actually don’t think the number of books needed is too bad. Especially when you factor in perks that help you find more of them and also that they are often in areas that make sense.

Such as:

- Vehicle magazines in gas stations, repair shops, and cars

 

- Cooking Magazines in cabinets

 

- Tool magazines in hardware stores and construction sites

 

etc.

2 hours ago, SuperNinja55 said:

didn't treebranch say "using" tools, not "crafting" tools? I dislike the magazine system, but I hated the constant crafting more.

How I'd go about it
If you were to use said tools and say, idk, every previous number of blocks broken times 1.5 (rounded up) you got a point, that'd be great.
Like you start out needing to break 10 blocks for your first point, then 15, then 23, then 35, 53, 80, 120, 180, 270, 405, so on and so forth with diminishing returns.
As for firearm/melee skills: the more kills with that respective weapon type, the more you can make better ones. Again, with diminishing returns.

You'd have to balance this by nerfing book loot, and have to make the diminishing returns from doing actions quite steep, but it means you don't have to go out and loot a ton of POIs just to find that 1 book you need to make a tier 6 M60. Just go kill like 500 zombies with your tier 5 and you'll get that point eventually.

Once again, this is NOT learning by crafting a million stone axes, but by using the tools and getting better at them.
I think this is an amazing idea by treebranch007

Again, looking back the old system, you could break blocks with weapons that you had weakened with other methods, and it would give xp for the weapon. 
 

It’s an odd predicament, as normally I’m all for upgrading through doing, but with the system they have it does encourage the player to go do a mix of things, which I really like too.

 

MAYBE adding a back and forth type system where you can use xp for one tier, need books through the next, then be able to do xp again. Idk. I just really feel that if you can get it through just doing the thing, it would be too easy to cheese.

[treebranch007]

I really like all the feedback thank you! And I very much agree, crafting a billion stone axes to increase your ability to craft weapons was not a good mechanic and definitely not something I would ever want to return to. There are obviously some skills that would require magazines such as vehicle crafting and electrical engineering, and I by no means would want them to go away. Honestly, I have no issues (mostly) with the current crafting system and this is hypothetical way of making the game more inclusive to players who prioritize the engineering aspect of the game over the looting and shooting side.

 

I have been nearly exclusively playing on a server with one of my friends as of late and he is very much a looter shooter strength 100% strength build player. I've found that I spend a disproportionate amount of time harvesting resources and building structures by comparison to looting POIs which has put me at a disadvantage come horde night as mining does nothing but generate resources and exp. I generally have no issues assuming more of a "base mom" roll when playing on a server, but it does make the game harder if that is your primary style of play as the magazine system forces you to loot in order to improve your crafting skills.

 

I absolutely love 7D2D and I know the 1.0 transition has been rough for some, but I think the changes made were made for the best reasons. If the magazine system stays exactly the same I hold no issue. As with anything there is always room for improvement, and I think partly adding this mechanic back in would make he game more inclusive to more styles of gameplay. 

[Riamus]

3 hours ago, treebranch007 said:

I really like all the feedback thank you! And I very much agree, crafting a billion stone axes to increase your ability to craft weapons was not a good mechanic and definitely not something I would ever want to return to. There are obviously some skills that would require magazines such as vehicle crafting and electrical engineering, and I by no means would want them to go away. Honestly, I have no issues (mostly) with the current crafting system and this is hypothetical way of making the game more inclusive to players who prioritize the engineering aspect of the game over the looting and shooting side.

 

I have been nearly exclusively playing on a server with one of my friends as of late and he is very much a looter shooter strength 100% strength build player. I've found that I spend a disproportionate amount of time harvesting resources and building structures by comparison to looting POIs which has put me at a disadvantage come horde night as mining does nothing but generate resources and exp. I generally have no issues assuming more of a "base mom" roll when playing on a server, but it does make the game harder if that is your primary style of play as the magazine system forces you to loot in order to improve your crafting skills.

 

I absolutely love 7D2D and I know the 1.0 transition has been rough for some, but I think the changes made were made for the best reasons. If the magazine system stays exactly the same I hold no issue. As with anything there is always room for improvement, and I think partly adding this mechanic back in would make he game more inclusive to more styles of gameplay. 

I am curious.... if you are on a server and you're doing all the mining (and whatever other base-related tasks you might be doing) while they go out looting, why aren't they just crafting whatever you need for you?  That or bringing back the magazines that you'd need to use that they don't need to use?  It's all about working as a team.  If they only want to do things for themselves while letting you do the "grunt work" for them and don't want to share with you, then I personally would find others to play with.

 

Not everyone needs to craft everything.  And you don't need multiple people crafting the same things in a party.  If one person is crafting salvage tools, it doesn't make sense for anyone else in the party to use those magazines and slow down that progression.  Let that one person do all the salvage tool crafting for everyone.  Just split up crafting amount the people in the party.  Or if one person wants to do all the crafting, bring back all the magazines for that one person.  At least until they max a given magazine and then others can read them.  Just tell them to make you a better mining tool whenever they return.  If they want you to do that for them so they don't have to, they should be willing to craft what you need.  Just my opinion.

[meganoth]

The problem for him is, his friend will mostly find the magazines for perks the friend puts points into. That is one big reason why I think the perk bonuses into magazine finding are too big. I am assuming his friend brings back any magazines that are for him already. That is so fundamentally part of co-op play it doesn't need to be mentioned to sensible people.

 

@treebranch007: There are other methods that can help you:

1) Do not distribute your perk points into non-strength perks linked with magazines, try to get your STR-magazine perks as high as possible before perking into other interesting perks. Let your friend perk into "advanced engineering" and the "wrench" perk at the start of the game so he finds those essentials.

2) Alternatively or additionally he could put one perk point into shotguns and miner69er as well so he finds more of those magazines

3) You could arrange with him that as long as you are behind in magazines you always have first pick on any book containers and mailboxes while you are questing together. 

4) You should always buy your perk books if you see them at the trader, financed by selling products from your mining operation. Also if you make a trip to a new town you could make a short trip into the town and search a lot of mailboxes, doesn't take much time and should get you a boost.

 

Edited Thursday at 11:33 AM by meganoth (see edit history)

[GuardianReaper0]

9 hours ago, treebranch007 said:

I really like all the feedback thank you! And I very much agree, crafting a billion stone axes to increase your ability to craft weapons was not a good mechanic and definitely not something I would ever want to return to. There are obviously some skills that would require magazines such as vehicle crafting and electrical engineering, and I by no means would want them to go away. Honestly, I have no issues (mostly) with the current crafting system and this is hypothetical way of making the game more inclusive to players who prioritize the engineering aspect of the game over the looting and shooting side.

 

I have been nearly exclusively playing on a server with one of my friends as of late and he is very much a looter shooter strength 100% strength build player. I've found that I spend a disproportionate amount of time harvesting resources and building structures by comparison to looting POIs which has put me at a disadvantage come horde night as mining does nothing but generate resources and exp. I generally have no issues assuming more of a "base mom" roll when playing on a server, but it does make the game harder if that is your primary style of play as the magazine system forces you to loot in order to improve your crafting skills.

 

I absolutely love 7D2D and I know the 1.0 transition has been rough for some, but I think the changes made were made for the best reasons. If the magazine system stays exactly the same I hold no issue. As with anything there is always room for improvement, and I think partly adding this mechanic back in would make he game more inclusive to more styles of gameplay. 

If I’m not mistaken, they are trying to get things balanced for when they put in the rentable crossplay servers (slated for Q4 2024). 
 

I think that player vending machines are going to be much more encouraged than before, hopefully helping to curb some of the imbalances. 
 

Players that go out fighting and looting can sell items they find, including magazines, at their machines. 
Meanwhile, players like OP that spend more time resource gathering will have a much higher abundance of food, construction supplies, etc that will be worthwhile in their vending machines. 
 

I for one absolutely LOVE when games do a good in game merchant system. So I’m hoping this works out.

[Suxar]

8 minutes ago, GuardianReaper0 said:

I think that player vending machines are going to be much more encouraged than before, hopefully helping to curb some of the imbalances. 

On PvE servers they are already popular. On PvP they are not, because they can be broken.

[GuardianReaper0]

9 minutes ago, Suxar said:

On PvE servers they are already popular. On PvP they are not, because they can be broken.

Yeah I figured. 
So far with console they are basically unused because everyone expects to play “as a team” with shared loot, rather than independent “teams”.
Im currently in the process of testing out various settings and stuff because I intend to rent a server when it becomes available. Definitely keeping it PvE though and group sizes of 3 players per “team”. 

[Suxar]

2 minutes ago, GuardianReaper0 said:

Yeah I figured. 
So far with console they are basically unused because everyone expects to play “as a team” with shared loot, rather than independent “teams”.
Im currently in the process of testing out various settings and stuff because I intend to rent a server when it becomes available. Definitely keeping it PvE though and group sizes of 3 players per “team”. 

There is no concept of groups as such. You can join a team, or you can add to your friends list. A friend can build under your claim, and the team simply distributes exp if they are nearby. And I'm not sure that the team has restrictions, once we ran with ten. I think we united on the red night.

[GuardianReaper0]

38 minutes ago, Suxar said:

There is no concept of groups as such. You can join a team, or you can add to your friends list. A friend can build under your claim, and the team simply distributes exp if they are nearby. And I'm not sure that the team has restrictions, once we ran with ten. I think we united on the red night.

Console plays MUCH different than PC then, because a vast majority of players (in my experience) won’t join a server unless they are in a team. “Solo” players only exist for the most part if they are on their own server and very few in multiplayer servers.

 

As far as restrictions go, that is going to be a rule of the server, not so much as a setting. After all, I hold the right to keep people out of my server if they are breaking rules.

Edited Thursday at 02:17 PM by GuardianReaper0 (see edit history)

[Suxar]

20 minutes ago, GuardianReaper0 said:

because a vast majority of players (in my experience) won’t join a server unless they are in a team.

You always join the server solo. The team is created inside the game. They can be created or dissolved.

 

21 minutes ago, GuardianReaper0 said:

As far as restrictions go, that is going to be a rule of the server, not so much as a setting. After all, I hold the right to keep people out of my server if they are breaking rules.

The owner is the master. All servers have their own rules, you can make those that you consider necessary.

[GuardianReaper0]

24 minutes ago, Suxar said:

You always join the server solo. The team is created inside the game. They can be created or dissolved.

 

The owner is the master. All servers have their own rules, you can make those that you consider necessary.

In case I wasn’t clear:

yes you spawn in solo, but you are expected to send ally invites the moment you get in, and work together rather than apart. 
 

The ONLY exceptions to this are PvP or short-term servers, of which hold no interest to me. 
 

Console is currently restricted to 4 players per server. Not many console players play the game without friends.

[aceguy7]

Maybe we could have more options/settings to select if we want to play learn by looting or a hybrid of both styles with balances so we cant just spam craft away. legacy mode/learn by hybrid  or classic mode/learn by looting. Would love to see that...

[Cr0wst0rm]

Frankly speaking, the current learn by looting approach is absolute garbage. It's just another artificial way to slow down the progression. While it is succesfull partially, it blocks the progression in scenarios (mining/farming/etc) where you would never expect it and generally sucks.

Another thing I would like to know. Why are the developers stretching the living @%$# out of the game? Too lazy to add new survival features that would increase progression time instead? Who would actually want to read 120 perk books in a survival game? wtf?

[TWORDY]

Well. Probably a better solution would be an implementation of blueprints instead of a zillion books in the same category. At least for those who perk up into a skill tree.

 

100 books to be collected for one perk is a time-consuming overkill and unnecessary cluttering.

 

I would love to have the opportunity to obtain a blueprint for myself from a trader (1000 dukes) once I perk up into certain tech without any complications. Traders should have tech blueprints for dukes all the time. Blueprints should rather drop completely at random and stay exclusive for use only who perked up into a specific tree.

 

I would expect to be able to progress almost immediately once I assign a point, get a blueprint or a book with ease from Trader, and proceed with crafting. But here, it is not the case, someone has to loot or chase constantly for 50-100 books. The progression gate has come to some levels of absurdity, especially if the amount of usage of a given item by the player spawns the probability of finding a given book. 

 

I would rather expect other players to be allowed to craft items with a book, but not 6 LvL without a specific progression-tree. Yes, a tree not a list taken out of Excel. So a book would have a function and a skill tree.

 

So, right now I perk up and still have to chase for zillion books... I mean, cmon. Once I perk up, a blueprint from a trader should do the job, with one click. Books spawned at random, devs for non-perked players as an alternative.

 

There should rather be a layer upon layer to provide progression, but the book system slows down the progression and provides aberrations in looting and progression as we speak. I hope someone reads it from TFP.

 

2 hours ago, Cr0wst0rm said:

Who would actually want to read 120 perk books in a survival game? wtf?

 

This should be optional and not force you to gown down this path on day one in my humble opinion.

[meganoth]

For me the speed of the game is about right. Why would I want to be finished by day 21? I would have seen only 3 horde nights!

 

But if you like it faster, why don't you just set 200% XP and 200% loot? Practically double speed, even with magazines as you loot them in pairs.

 

[GuardianReaper0]

21 minutes ago, meganoth said:

For me the speed of the game is about right. Why would I want to be finished by day 21? I would have seen only 3 horde nights!

 

But if you like it faster, why don't you just set 200% XP and 200% loot? Practically double speed, even with magazines as you loot them in pairs.

 

That’s what I’ve been thinking. I’ve even been trying to figure out ways to fairly slow the game down, because once you understand what you are doing, you can max out several skill book trees ON NORMAL settings, let alone boosted. 
 

For those that are super desperate on the skill books part, simply craft or otherwise acquire a good nerd chest piece and if you really need xp, use the nerd helmet and other xp buffs.

 

My group on one playthrough would save up books in a box and have a t6 nerd outfit we would use when we would go through them. It REALLY cut down the time.

[Vaeliorin]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

For me the speed of the game is about right. Why would I want to be finished by day 21? I would have seen only 3 horde nights!

 

But if you like it faster, why don't you just set 200% XP and 200% loot? Practically double speed, even with magazines as you loot them in pairs.

 

If I could progress by spending my time doing what I want to do (instead of being forced to loot) the speed of the game would be fine.  My issue with the magazines is, and always will be, that it forces me to go looting when I'd rather be mining/building.

[TWORDY]

1 hour ago, Vaeliorin said:

If I could progress by spending my time doing what I want to do (instead of being forced to loot) the speed of the game would be fine.  My issue with the magazines is, and always will be, that it forces me to go looting when I'd rather be mining/building.

 

Books should be optional, one of the pathways, completely generated/spawned at random. Gathering books doesn`t make sense once a player has already invested points into the skill-tree. Purchasable Blueprints in Trader compounds might be (always) available for those who already perked up into a specific weapon or a tool - 1 click, one blueprint, one item in the inventory, everyone is happy. I do not see the need for 100 books, instead, half of the amount that drops half of the time would be perfectly fine. Books drop too often and there are too many of them in the inventory because of that.

 

A Trader should work in that sense, so if a player has not managed to find something by himself, then this could be found in Trader compound.

 

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

For me the speed of the game is about right. Why would I want to be finished by day 21? I would have seen only 3 horde nights!

 

But if you like it faster, why don't you just set 200% XP and 200% loot? Practically double speed, even with magazines as you loot them in pairs.

 

 

So yeah, I perked up and I have to wait for a decent amount of books to drop. I am playing with 100% progression speed, but lobby XP sharing is enabled so I progress faster. The speed is fine, but I feel like I am starting with Pipe Sniper Rifle (which takes too long to progress with to a better weapon), and end up with a final tier weapon because of the implementation of books that drag me down idk what for. 

 

The implementation of Books should not drag me down and slow down the overall progression while I assign my points, but rather give additional options to a player. 

 

If books were completely at random then playthroughs would be unique, and yeah, the progression would slow down naturally also. 

[GuardianReaper0]

1 hour ago, TWORDY said:

 

Books should be optional, one of the pathways, completely generated/spawned at random. Gathering books doesn`t make sense once a player has already invested points into the skill-tree. Purchasable Blueprints in Trader compounds might be (always) available for those who already perked up into a specific weapon or a tool - 1 click, one blueprint, one item in the inventory, everyone is happy. I do not see the need for 100 books, instead, half of the amount that drops half of the time would be perfectly fine. Books drop too often and there are too many of them in the inventory because of that.

 

A Trader should work in that sense, so if a player has not managed to find something by himself, then this could be found in Trader compound.

 

 

So yeah, I perked up and I have to wait for a decent amount of books to drop. I am playing with 100% progression speed, but lobby XP sharing is enabled so I progress faster. The speed is fine, but I feel like I am starting with Pipe Sniper Rifle (which takes too long to progress with to a better weapon), and end up with a final tier weapon because of the implementation of books that drag me down idk what for. 

 

The implementation of Books should not drag me down and slow down the overall progression while I assign my points, but rather give additional options to a player. 

 

If books were completely at random then playthroughs would be unique, and yeah, the progression would slow down naturally also. 

The book system actually makes sense in terms of crafting, as they match up to a type of weapon/ tool, and the quality of said weapon/ tool, and similar regarding consumables like food and meds. 
 

I get that some players want to simply level it up by doing it, but I really think that if an alternative way is made, it should be tied to either challenges or even a new type of mission from traders, geared towards players that would rather spend their time farming/ mining/ building. 

Supply missions, where you can bring the trader x amount of a requested material, of which you have a reward option of skill books kind of geared towards that activity.

 

It solves the issue, and has the added benefit of giving dukes as well.

 

As far as building is concerned, maybe get a “special mission” you can accept once or twice a week that calls a horde to your base. Upon mission completion, the rewards are geared more toward builders, such as books relevant to builders, concrete and steel blocks, and various packs of traps, electronics, and even crafting bench mods.