Returning to the game after about 8 years. I don't get why they changed the water the way it is now.

[brum]

As the topic suggests, i have issues with how water is implemented right now.

 

I'm playing on a 2 person server and it's extremely weird how literally the only way to gain water during the early game is to go on toilet scavenging runs to get your needed daily 2-3 jars of water. It's really, really strange.

 

I don't understand why you can't make glass jars or make plastic containers or buckets to fill them with water and just boil them. I feel like it's some top-down balancing decision because they felt like water production was too tedious during the late-game, so they made early game almost unplayable as a result. Not just from a game feel perspective, but also in the immersion breaking way.

I've looked into how to solve this issue, and it seems like the only solution is buying something from an NPC for a total of 1500+ tokens, of which i've found maybe 400 so far in 14 days.

I don't get it, why do i need to interact with a trader, as the only way to get water, the most common element on the surface of the planet? Why are there no alternative methods to tide people over at the start of the game, which allows you to get water without a collector, albeit in a more tedious way?

 

I understand the reason for water collectors to exist, to basically allow players to put that part of the game on autopilot, to be able to focus on other things, but why are there no alternative early game options at ALL that don't rely on RNG toilet scavenging during the early game?  I find it really crazy and a bad decision to change the game this way compared to how it was years ago, where it was a true, uninterrupted, logical scavenging game.

I also noticed zombies just spawn out of NOWHERE ontop of you, rather than wandering around normally, or loading inside a house when you are first approaching it.

[meganoth]

1) Money is very easy to get in early game, just do a few quests for the trader.

 

2) You can find water bottles in every kitchen, not only in toilets. There are endless discussions here in the forum about how many, some veterans say they find so much water that they don't even need dew collectors at all

 

3) The trader sells water as well if you get low on it

 

4) As a last resort you can eat a vitamin and actually drink directly from a lake but you will get damage. If you need an ingame explanation for all of this just imagine all open water is somewhat toxic (which doesn't explain why you can drink it directly but not collect it, but well, game balance is more important)

 

 

[Adam the Waster]

After playing console.  I live in the snow on random gen. I'm starving half to death 90% of the time and I ether go out to get food or die trying... 

 

Water is little to no issue.  In fact even if I wasn't in the snow it would be too easy

[Morloc]

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

If you need an ingame explanation for all of this just imagine all open water is somewhat toxic (which doesn't explain why you can drink it directly but not collect it, but well, game balance is more important)

 

/agree

 

In some VERY old RPG games I remember playing, Health...(i.e. Hit Points) was described not so much as your ability to absorb actual bullets, but the overall factor of luck, health, effective immediate first aid, stamina, taking advantage of cover, combat experience, morale, etc.

A bullet in Indiana Jones' head kills him in the same way it'd kill anyone else, but his health, training and luck (plot armor) keep him alive and keep the bullets from hitting there. He's not invulnerable, but his "health bar" is really beefy.

 

Drinking dirty water gives you a bellyache, which may not directly injure you, but it does effect many of the things listed above.

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 💀

[RStarphoenix]

Water itself is easy to get. Clean water is only slightly trickier. Water was entirely too easy to produce prior to Alpha 21 which negated that portion of the early survival. I get the dew collector thing, removal of jars/cans being a good thing (less things for the game to track which makes it perform better) and making the cooking pot the gold find early on.

It brought more value to the helmet water purifier (which actually isn't hard to find early on, even if you eschew traders on principle) and the odd vending machine that holds clean water you could pop your scavenged dukes into also increased in value slightly.

They gave us probably too many places to obtain the odd bottle of murky water (a good house pillaging run on Day 1 could easily net you 20+ murky water and probably the cooking pot to purify it). -- Also if you do include trader usage in your play style, completing 2-3 quests and selling scrap materials (like brass) could easily net you the 2000-ish dukes needed for the one water filter.

And as someone else mentioned, you could scrounge up a vitamin and just drink from any pool, river, lake or sewage drain to prevent the dysentery but you'll take a bit of damage per sip.

[mr.devolver]

Imho, even if we could speculate as to what reasons are behind the changes to the water and even if we concluded that there could be some good reasons related to possible future plans we don't know about which would piece it all together nicely and help us make sense of it all, the development of the game as a whole is still so slow that making such change now only to realistically explain it much later is not exactly a good move. People usually play the game for what it is now rather than for what it eventually could become and the lack of believable explanation doesn't really help to convince them either.

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, mr.devolver said:

Imho, even if we could speculate as to what reasons are behind the changes to the water

 

Huh, why "If we could" ? We have been speculating all the time, and even better, because we had some information from devs and Roland, our speculation is actually based on a some facts!

 

5 hours ago, mr.devolver said:

and even if we concluded that there could be some good reasons related to possible future plans

 

Another strange sentence. Why are you looking for "reasons related to future plans" ? The reasons are known right now and have nothing to do with any future plans.

 

5 hours ago, mr.devolver said:

we don't know about which would piece it all together nicely and help us make sense of it all, the development of the game as a whole is still so slow that making such change now only to realistically explain it much later is not exactly a good move. People usually play the game for what it is now rather than for what it eventually could become and the lack of believable explanation doesn't really help to convince them either.

 

I don't think there will ever be a realistical explanation offered. Just like blood-moon will never be explained. And especially zombie metabolism will never be explained. If you are looking for a realistic game you are in the wrong place.

 

 

[ElCabong]

Liquor stores are a very good source of murky water. You only need two or three to get to the night and the traider will give you a mission that will have water as a reward. You'll also get one that will have glue for a reward. Make sure you buy that pot the trader closes if you don't loot one

[Ramethzer0]

Welcome to the forums, first time poster!     *cold soulless stare*   😐

 

There are a number of threads already dedicated to this topic, and yes - the fact that water takes a little more effort to loot does exist.

However, its been proven (even by me) that this water shortage is not really a problem if you know what you are doing.  Water, while

not stupidly plentiful, is not difficult to find.   There are also many more ways to get it other than toilet looting.

 

Happy Hunting.

Edited October 23 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[brum]

After reading some of the replies and tips.. I am now of the opinion that it's not really a balancing issue, as water is indeed fairly easy to get; the main issue is that the game does not explain how to do it.

 

Case in point, you have to have empty hands while standing above water to drink it; this is the kind of thing most people would not try. I have not seen the game write or tell me in any way that you can drink from bodies of water.

The same applies to some other aspects, like being able to get antibiotics (honey) from tree stumps. I just destroyed a few, and i didn't get honey, it just gives you a bit of wood, so from that point on i didn't touch them, until i read up about them on wikipedia.

 

I think a mark of a good game is that it conveys this kind of information to you in some way; so that you don't have to play it with wikipedia open. 

[meganoth]

@brum Have you checked the journal?

 

Edited October 24 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Roland]

On 10/23/2023 at 6:12 AM, brum said:

After reading some of the replies and tips.. I am now of the opinion that it's not really a balancing issue, as water is indeed fairly easy to get; the main issue is that the game does not explain how to do it.

 

Case in point, you have to have empty hands while standing above water to drink it; this is the kind of thing most people would not try. I have not seen the game write or tell me in any way that you can drink from bodies of water.

The same applies to some other aspects, like being able to get antibiotics (honey) from tree stumps. I just destroyed a few, and i didn't get honey, it just gives you a bit of wood, so from that point on i didn't touch them, until i read up about them on wikipedia.

 

I think a mark of a good game is that it conveys this kind of information to you in some way; so that you don't have to play it with wikipedia open. 

 

Well, the mark of a finished and polished game at any rate. There are quite a few good tips along these lines you can scroll through during the loading screen while waiting for your world to generate but I know communicating things like this is something they plan to get to before the game goes gold. As far as the water drinking is concerned it may just be the victim of it being a function of the game since the beginning but then was removed for a time and in A21 it came back. If there really is nothing about it in the journal or in the loading screen tips then it is surely an oversight.

 

It is pretty funny watching brand new people play and seeing how difficult it is for them to figure out things that are second nature to people who have followed the development of the game so you are correct that this is an area that must be improved before the game can be considered done.

[Maharin]

I'm surprised there isn't a version of this thread titled:

 

Returning to the game after about 8 days. I don't get why nothing has changed.

 

[JRaskal]

As far as I can tell, the water and recipe system were both changed to slow down progression, especially in the early game. At least that's the effect it definitely had on my games.

 

To me it is a questionable decision, to make playthroughs slower, grindier, and more RNG focused.

[Ramethzer0]

28 minutes ago, JRaskal said:

As far as I can tell, the water and recipe system were both changed to slow down progression, especially in the early game. At least that's the effect it definitely had on my games.

 

To me it is a questionable decision, to make playthroughs slower, grindier, and more RNG focused.

 

Previously to this, it was easier to speed through the early game going right to mid.  Many reported (both new players and veterans) would swear that the survival aspect of the game was somewhat lost.   Now, its a thing you can feel.  In my humble opinion, I felt it was a good change.  It also adds a little bit of weight to the looting perks in the PER tree.

 

If you want to combat that change, you could toggle your loot quality/quantity in your options settings, and/or check out what a perception build feels like.

[JRaskal]

13 minutes ago, Ramethzer0 said:

 

Previously to this, it was easier to speed through the early game going right to mid.  Many reported (both new players and veterans) would swear that the survival aspect of the game was somewhat lost.   Now, its a thing you can feel.  In my humble opinion, I felt it was a good change.  It also adds a little bit of weight to the looting perks in the PER tree.

 

If you want to combat that change, you could toggle your loot quality/quantity in your options settings, and/or check out what a perception build feels like.

 

Not my experience. I'm not saying the old system was perfect, but the new one is just tedious and boring and adds nothing really in terms of game play. It doesn't require skill, it's just purely based on luck. Same with the new progression system. if you can't find the right books, you just not progress. No furnace, no vehicles, no food no nothing.

[Ramethzer0]

15 minutes ago, JRaskal said:

 

Not my experience. I'm not saying the old system was perfect, but the new one is just tedious and boring and adds nothing really in terms of game play. It doesn't require skill, it's just purely based on luck. Same with the new progression system. if you can't find the right books, you just not progress. No furnace, no vehicles, no food no nothing.

 

While I wont challenge your opinion, I would challenge that it did bring back a focus on older gameplay that needed fine tuning.  For instance, with the water scarcity and combat wounds, I have to be a lot more wary of wellness again.   This was something that was very much lost in A17 when the old perk system went away.

 

And the skill versus luck thing is a complex issue.   Skill is something that feels more applicable to the efficiency in killing zeds, and the hoarding resources.  It doesn't really have much effect outside of that.  Everything else is about familiarity and game knowledge.   If you're a veteran and you find that you're constantly running a treadmill of similar and familiar content, then of course its going to feel boring.   Luck seems to apply more to loot and its quality, and while that can be a harsh mistress, there are plenty of examples of folks that have found the opposite to be true.   Case in point, the guy who ran around and focused entirely on looting books so they could skip the early game gear crunch.   It goes both ways.

 

I mean you pick and choose your battles still, and that is the essence of action.  And if you feel if that is still tedious and boring maybe its time to move on?

Edited October 25 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[Kosmic Kerman]

1 hour ago, JRaskal said:

 

Not my experience. I'm not saying the old system was perfect, but the new one is just tedious and boring and adds nothing really in terms of game play. It doesn't require skill, it's just purely based on luck. Same with the new progression system. if you can't find the right books, you just not progress. No furnace, no vehicles, no food no nothing.

To each their own. I prefer the new system because it adds variety to my play throughs and gives me access to recipes I typically did not unlock in previous versions.  The thing I liked the least during the experimental was how slow vehicle progression was. I haven’t played enough of the release version to know where this ended up. 

[JRaskal]

1 hour ago, Ramethzer0 said:

 

While I wont challenge your opinion, I would challenge that it did bring back a focus on older gameplay that needed fine tuning.  For instance, with the water scarcity and combat wounds, I have to be a lot more wary of wellness again.   This was something that was very much lost in A17 when the old perk system went away.

 

And the skill versus luck thing is a complex issue.   Skill is something that feels more applicable to the efficiency in killing zeds, and the hoarding resources.  It doesn't really have much effect outside of that.  Everything else is about familiarity and game knowledge.   If you're a veteran and you find that you're constantly running a treadmill of similar and familiar content, then of course its going to feel boring.   Luck seems to apply more to loot and its quality, and while that can be a harsh mistress, there are plenty of examples of folks that have found the opposite to be true.   Case in point, the guy who ran around and focused entirely on looting books so they could skip the early game gear crunch.   It goes both ways.

 

I mean you pick and choose your battles still, and that is the essence of action.  And if you feel if that is still tedious and boring maybe its time to move on?

There was always luck involved in the loot system. That's at the core of the game. But until now you could make up for bad luck by choosing the right talents.

 

Now you're completely at the mercy of the RNG. If you can't find the right books you might not even be able to build a forge or a workbench, let alone a vehicle of some kind. You can try and focus on looking for books, but if you don't find the right ones, you're stuck hitting demolisher zombies with level 2 wooden clubs and there's nothing you can do against that.

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, JRaskal said:

There was always luck involved in the loot system. That's at the core of the game. But until now you could make up for bad luck by choosing the right talents.

 

Now you're completely at the mercy of the RNG. If you can't find the right books you might not even be able to build a forge or a workbench, let alone a vehicle of some kind. You can try and focus on looking for books, but if you don't find the right ones, you're stuck hitting demolisher zombies with level 2 wooden clubs and there's nothing you can do against that.

 

Some people also believe poker is a game of luck 😉. Start a new game and put 2 perk points into INT so that you can immediately put 2 other perk points into lockpicking (yes, lockpicking, this is not a mistake). Then just loot lots of mailboxes or look for magazines. I guarantee you that you will have a forge in no time and your engineering crafting skill will be ahead of all the other crafting skills that you didn't put perk points into. 

 

And you are not stuck. You can buy or find steel clubs long before any demo turns up even if you can't craft them.

 

 

[Kalen]

9 hours ago, JRaskal said:

Not my experience. I'm not saying the old system was perfect, but the new one is just tedious and boring and adds nothing really in terms of game play. It doesn't require skill, it's just purely based on luck. Same with the new progression system. if you can't find the right books, you just not progress. No furnace, no vehicles, no food no nothing.

 

I doubt the change was intended to be overcome with skill or luck.  I would guess the change was intended to make you have to think about water.  In the old system, you didn't have to think about it at all.... you passively solved your early game water issues with barely a thought.   Now, its still not terribly difficult to solve your water issues, but you do have to think about it for a bit in the early game.   If that was the intent of the change, then I'd say it was successful.

 

I still have issues with the change from a realism perspective, which I've brought up in other threads, but overall, I'd say the change has improved the early game experience.  In a survival game, you should have to think about food & water.

 

[Ramethzer0]

15 hours ago, JRaskal said:

There was always luck involved in the loot system. That's at the core of the game. But until now you could make up for bad luck by choosing the right talents.

 

Now you're completely at the mercy of the RNG. If you can't find the right books you might not even be able to build a forge or a workbench, let alone a vehicle of some kind. You can try and focus on looking for books, but if you don't find the right ones, you're stuck hitting demolisher zombies with level 2 wooden clubs and there's nothing you can do against that.

 

I've never been in a situation where I had to smack a demo with a wooden club, lol.    That just sounds ridiculous.   Also, the crafting books you find are contextual to the perks you have already filled in.

 

I don't even think were playing the same game at this point.   It feels like you're just repeating your argument without taking anything into consideration.

 

Edited October 26 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[RStarphoenix]

16 hours ago, JRaskal said:

There was always luck involved in the loot system. That's at the core of the game. But until now you could make up for bad luck by choosing the right talents.

 

Now you're completely at the mercy of the RNG. If you can't find the right books you might not even be able to build a forge or a workbench, let alone a vehicle of some kind. You can try and focus on looking for books, but if you don't find the right ones, you're stuck hitting demolisher zombies with level 2 wooden clubs and there's nothing you can do against that.

You are not actually at the mercy of RNG as much as you think. Whatever crafting books you find (in the case of clubs & bats, Heavy Hitters) are tied into the Pummel Pete perk combined with some help from Lucky Looter. If you are a perfect 0 in all the perks, Lucky Looter will boost your odds of everything via RNG (so you'll find a little bit of everything). But if you pump a point or two into Pummel Pete, it skews the books in favor of Heavy Hitters (you may still find others, but your odds are much improved). So you can still take the perks you did in Alpha 20 and earlier to still get the better quality clubs/bats, just not in the method.

Same is true for workstation books (the game even tells you Lockpicking + Engineering perks will skew books in favor of Forge Ahead books to speed up getting those workstations build). Same idea for all the other things in the game now.

While there is still RNG in everything, we do have a measure of control over it in Alpha 21 by choosing our perks to nudge the loot tables in the direction(s) we want.

Edited October 26 by RStarphoenix (see edit history)

[JRaskal]

6 hours ago, RStarphoenix said:

You are not actually at the mercy of RNG as much as you think. Whatever crafting books you find (in the case of clubs & bats, Heavy Hitters) are tied into the Pummel Pete perk combined with some help from Lucky Looter. If you are a perfect 0 in all the perks, Lucky Looter will boost your odds of everything via RNG (so you'll find a little bit of everything). But if you pump a point or two into Pummel Pete, it skews the books in favor of Heavy Hitters (you may still find others, but your odds are much improved). So you can still take the perks you did in Alpha 20 and earlier to still get the better quality clubs/bats, just not in the method.

Same is true for workstation books (the game even tells you Lockpicking + Engineering perks will skew books in favor of Forge Ahead books to speed up getting those workstations build). Same idea for all the other things in the game now.

While there is still RNG in everything, we do have a measure of control over it in Alpha 21 by choosing our perks to nudge the loot tables in the direction(s) we want.

So you're saying i just need to have 3 stats maxed (PER for LL, STR for PP and INT for LP + Eng) to have a somewhat better chance to someday have both the skills needed to build something decent AND the means to craft the required ingredients? That doesn't strike you as exactly what I was describing was wrong with the system?

 

You can try and deny it all you want, but the new system just makes the game progression slower and more frustrating, because it's designed to that end. It's not the first time I've seen developers try and make game progression slower, so the game would last longer, but it never ever worked and always ended up in the game losing public appeal. Just look at what happened to Diablo 4.

[Ramethzer0]

2 hours ago, JRaskal said:

So you're saying i just need to have 3 stats maxed (PER for LL, STR for PP and INT for LP + Eng) to have a somewhat better chance to someday have both the skills needed to build something decent AND the means to craft the required ingredients? That doesn't strike you as exactly what I was describing was wrong with the system?

 

You can try and deny it all you want, but the new system just makes the game progression slower and more frustrating, because it's designed to that end. It's not the first time I've seen developers try and make game progression slower, so the game would last longer, but it never ever worked and always ended up in the game losing public appeal. Just look at what happened to Diablo 4.

 

 

No, that's not what he said at all.   It's not what either of us said.    You lept so far past the goalpost it confirmed my suspicions.