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New challenge: no loot, all materials must be obtained from logging/mining/salvaging


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7 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

Personally, I don't really see how changing the recipe from forged iron to scrap iron would be a big deal

"Big" deal, not really. But it is the primitive-game gating item. Without having to loot for those, you could just dig an iron node and not have to loot. It's a design decision; one I don't necessarily agree with, but one that does work just fine in vanilla.

 

There's two "loot only" bits gating a forge, pipes and duct tape - you can craft tape, but at the bottom there you'd need jars from loot. In that sense jars are also "gating and gated by" the forge. At the moment there's tree stumps that let you avoid looting jars - but the principle is there; it's there to drive looting for things. And A21 will of course change things again.. :)

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There used to be a recipe for making mechanical parts.  But yeah... there are a lot of little obstacles to go crafting only.  To get around most of them you'd have to create several recipes and re-balance everything to make sure the later game items couldn't be crafted first, that sort of thing.  It wouldn't be a horribly difficult mod to make all things considered.

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17 hours ago, Maharin said:

 

But that's kind of a moot point if you think about it.  Nobody stays new for long and once they do find a source for something they will stick with that until they get more game knowledge and develop a better way (for them) of getting the resources they need. 

 

Vanilla is geared heavily to new players whatever you want to call them. And I have heard even old players confess they don't know about some ways to acquire resources. RipClaw just confessed to not knowing about how to get mechanical parts with a stone axe and I didn't know that either. I know I can get pipes from sinks and generally by looting containers, but I would have to look it up to know which other blocks (if there are any) in the game I have to destroy to get a pipe without a wrench.

 

I think you can't disagree with the statement "There are **some** players for which making pipes out of scrap iron would be a difference".

 

By the way, I myself, not at all new player, occasionally had to search for pipes and other resources in any stage of the game because I was trying to build a subbase in another town and was looking through POIs just for a few items I needed. Maybe even at night because I came to that town just before nightfall and (unprepared as I was) I needed the pipes or whatever else to not stand around useless. Scrap iron is literally everywhere (besides scrap iron nodes almost everything made from metal gets you scrap iron). Pipes, glue, mechanical and electrical parts, cloth, leather, paper are all stuff you have to do some looking around for. It is not at all difficult for an experienced player, the knowledge is there for anyone with an open eye. It is the difference between fairly easy and trivial

 

 

17 hours ago, Maharin said:

And there are quite a few POIs with toilets/sinks outside them.  By the time a new player attempts to build their first forge they've most likely found many pipes and a whole lot of scrap.  In A20 I'd argue that by the time someone stumbles onto how to get the knowledge to make a forge, gets up the nerve to spend a valuable point to make one, and then collects the resources to do so they are no longer a "new player".  That's just my opinion, obviously.

 

A20 is (almost) history. But even if we consider A20 only there is no telling on what information new players stumble on. Most new players don't read a journal and I would assume lots of them get random bits of knowledge by pure chance. They might get the info where to get pipes a long time before the knowledge how to make a forge or a long time later.

 

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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I realize A21 will change everything just as A20 did for A19.  Nothing is tied down for certain and I get that.

 

And, to be honest, this thread isn't an argument for or against what can or can't be done in vanilla.  It was started as a "no loot" challenge which naturally lends itself to discussions about crafting and getting things without looting them.  Invariably all threads like this lead to modding because vanilla was not, nor will it ever be, designed for these extreme challenges.

 

I will ask one final question though.  With a little bit of knowledge or luck it is very easy to loot your way around (no need to make) the pipe/duct tape dependency for making a forge.  It is arguably a lot "harder" to loot/find a pot for making duct tape.  I've always thought that cooking with a pot was supposed happen earlier in the game than building a forge (not every game for sure, but the majority).  Logically, finding something/anything to cook with over a fire would be trivial in most survival scenarios, even if it is a stick stabbed through a fish, and eating or drinking clean water would naturally be a much higher priority.  Obvious exceptions would be desert or equally barren areas devoid of advanced life (no POIs or remnants of human settlements, for instance).

 

So the question is in which order do you people create your crafting stations through most of your games?  For me, the aim is to solve early cooking (a pot), then a forge, and then a workbench.  From there I no longer have a focus and it depends on how things fall as the game progresses.

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It is worth noting that A21 will, I think, flatly remove this as a possibility without heavily modding the game.

 

With recipes being moved over to magazines and being totally removed from perks, I don't see how you would progress without looting.

 

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