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New challenge: no loot, all materials must be obtained from logging/mining/salvaging


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3 hours ago, Old Crow said:

Why have them drop loot bags at all then? 

 

I dunno....we were talking about a mod that @Vaeliorin was thinking about making. Scroll up to his post where he describes what he wants to do. All I was doing was making up a name for his mod as a joke...

 

3 hours ago, Old Crow said:

And I'm going to disagree (big surprise, right?) on saying zombies shouldn't give experience at all. That's just an awful take.

 

Okay, but there was a 0xp mod that was pretty fun in which you got no xp for doing any actions. Instead, you earned a skillpoint at the end of each day in which you hadn't died. At the end of two days you earned 2 skillpoints and at the end of the third day and afterward you would earn 3 skillpoints as long as you didn't die. If you died then you would have to start over and build up to the 3 skillpoints a day.

 

It was quite freeing. You did whatever you wanted and it didn't matter. You could avoid zombies or fight them. As long as you didn't die either choice was equally valid. Without an xp reward attached to doing things there was no incentive or greater value placed on any particular action. Having played that and also having played the game once upon a time before xp was even a glint in the developers' eyes it is my opinion that the game does quite well without xp being tied to each and every action.

 

4 hours ago, Old Crow said:

I would not, however, be opposed to a setting to turn zombie experience gain on and off though.

 

Or maybe that pretty cool mod will get updated again someday...

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4 hours ago, edyonline said:

Found a way to get a forge. Find two jars of honey. Drink em, then you have enough jars to make the glue. Then smelt sand and glass to make as many jars as you want. 

Impressive. I doubt that this will still be possible in A21. In A21 you don't get an empty jar back when you consume something and you can't make jars either.

 

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19 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

Impressive. I doubt that this will still be possible in A21. In A21 you don't get an empty jar back when you consume something and you can't make jars either.

 

Interesting. Hopefully the no loot challenge is easier, as in, you can do most of the content without looting. Not being able to make a wrench, locks out a lot of items.

 

Wish I figured out the honey jars earlier. I spent first 6 days drinking from one jar lol. Set up a cooker by a pool in Diersville. And by other water sources. I also put two points in gut health to try and reduce the impact, but two points didn’t really do much IMO.

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5 hours ago, Roland said:

Okay, but there was a 0xp mod that was pretty fun in which you got no xp for doing any actions. Instead, you earned a skillpoint at the end of each day in which you hadn't died. At the end of two days you earned 2 skillpoints and at the end of the third day and afterward you would earn 3 skillpoints as long as you didn't die. If you died then you would have to start over and build up to the 3 skillpoints a day.

 

It was quite freeing. You did whatever you wanted and it didn't matter. You could avoid zombies or fight them. As long as you didn't die either choice was equally valid. Without an xp reward attached to doing things there was no incentive or greater value placed on any particular action. Having played that and also having played the game once upon a time before xp was even a glint in the developers' eyes it is my opinion that the game does quite well without xp being tied to each and every action.

 

 

Or maybe that pretty cool mod will get updated again someday...

 

That actually sounds really interesting. I would not mind giving something like that a try.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I can't remember which game it is. Might be Scum. But I remember playing a survival game where when you fall or take damage there is a chance that fragile things in your backpack break. I would much rather see that happen vs no empty jars in A21, but I am sure that involves a huge system coding workload vs. simply removing the jar spawn once a liquid is used.

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1 hour ago, Vaeliorin said:

There are no working workstations anywhere in A20.

Even in Navezgane? But I thought the trading post areas had working ones and several other places had them too but was random on whether they worked or not.

 

It has been almost a year since I played... but that's sad to see. Yet another dumb thing the devs removed from the game.

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15 hours ago, Fox said:

Even in Navezgane? But I thought the trading post areas had working ones and several other places had them too but was random on whether they worked or not.

 

It has been almost a year since I played... but that's sad to see. Yet another dumb thing the devs removed from the game.

I've never played Navezgane, but from what I've heard there are no working workstations there either.  They were intentionally removed for some reason.  It's not a big deal to me (I always use to forget to mark working workstations, and could never find them again), but it does seem like a somewhat pointless change.

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On 3/4/2023 at 3:10 PM, Maharin said:

I tried several games with no POIs just to see how far I can get without loot and creating everything I need.  The biggest issue is that without POIs things like metal pipes are incredibly hard to get so you can't make a forge.  Because you can't make a forge you can't make a pot which means most of the cooking stuff is out of reach.  Yeah, it gets ugly.  Only solution I could find in a POI-less world is to add recipes for pipes and pots from scrap metal.  There will be other things in the later stages of the game that will also need to be adjusted unless you're fine not having steel anything, for instance.

Cant you get them in trash bags now or am I mistaken.

 

And cars but you need a wrench for that.  Both spawn on a POI free map, do they not?

 

On 3/6/2023 at 8:58 PM, Roland said:

Or maybe that pretty cool mod will get updated again someday...

Yes, maybe it could....

 

 

that would be WONDERFUL :D

 

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1 hour ago, FA_Q2 said:

Cant you get them in trash bags now or am I mistaken.

 

Yes, trash bags / containers have them as a possible loot item.  Traders also have a chance to sell them.  Though if you removed all POIs, that would include traders.

 

I recall this issue being discussed before, though the OP back then came at it from a different perspective.  The OP at that time wanted the devs to change the game because they removed all POIs from the game and thought it was a game flaw to not be able to easily craft a forge with the POIs and traders removed from the game.

 

A suggestion at that time was to modify some of the recipes to account for that penalty you applied to yourself.  Same thing with the wrench.  You can loot the wrench from cars, but it has a very low priority to do so.  Doing this would still fall under the overall goal of building stuff from scratch (and not looting) but not put yourself in a box with zero or little chance of getting out of it.

 

Same thing with weapon parts.  Create a recipe for them so they become craftable.

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28 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

I recall this issue being discussed before, though the OP back then came at it from a different perspective.  The OP at that time wanted the devs to change the game because they removed all POIs from the game and thought it was a game flaw to not be able to easily craft a forge with the POIs and traders removed from the game.

 

LOL.  Ya, that sounds like some of us entitled forum rats :D

 

If those darn devs only knew what I know they could sell a LOT more copies of their best selling game. Just look at my zero steam sales ever. 

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6 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

 

Yes, trash bags / containers have them as a possible loot item.  Traders also have a chance to sell them.  Though if you removed all POIs, that would include traders.

 

I recall this issue being discussed before, though the OP back then came at it from a different perspective.  The OP at that time wanted the devs to change the game because they removed all POIs from the game and thought it was a game flaw to not be able to easily craft a forge with the POIs and traders removed from the game.

 

A suggestion at that time was to modify some of the recipes to account for that penalty you applied to yourself.  Same thing with the wrench.  You can loot the wrench from cars, but it has a very low priority to do so.  Doing this would still fall under the overall goal of building stuff from scratch (and not looting) but not put yourself in a box with zero or little chance of getting out of it.

 

Same thing with weapon parts.  Create a recipe for them so they become craftable.

 

That was a thread that I created and I was also the one that said that modifying / adding recipes for pipes and pots was the only way I could make it work in the early game.  The goal with the experiment (no POIs including traders, as little looting options as possible) was to see if crafting-only was even an option and it wasn't.

 

I did nothing in that thread except point out that there was a circular dependency between forges and pipes (you need a pipe to make a forge and a forge to make a pipe) that the devs might want to consider changing it if crafting-only games were something they were interested in supporting (and at the time at least they apparently were not interested).  Adding a recipe to "craft" pipes from scrap (or consider it finding pipes within a pile of scrap) would probably be enough to make it work.  Crafting pots from scrap (from a piece of sheet metal, for instance) was just a way to allow cooking to progress without waiting for a forge.

 

I made no demands but I was repeatedly and aggressively bashed for even suggesting that someone might want to play without POIs/looting and that in doing so I deserved all the bad things in life.  Nobody was interested in discussing the idea and nobody saw the forge/pipe circular dependency as a real issue.  But it very much is an issue if you want to play a crafting-only play through, which was the main point I was trying to get across in that thread.

 

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6 hours ago, Maharin said:

 

That was a thread that I created and I was also the one that said that modifying / adding recipes for pipes and pots was the only way I could make it work in the early game.  The goal with the experiment (no POIs including traders, as little looting options as possible) was to see if crafting-only was even an option and it wasn't.

 

I did nothing in that thread except point out that there was a circular dependency between forges and pipes (you need a pipe to make a forge and a forge to make a pipe) that the devs might want to consider changing it if crafting-only games were something they were interested in supporting (and at the time at least they apparently were not interested).  Adding a recipe to "craft" pipes from scrap (or consider it finding pipes within a pile of scrap) would probably be enough to make it work.  Crafting pots from scrap (from a piece of sheet metal, for instance) was just a way to allow cooking to progress without waiting for a forge.

 

I made no demands but I was repeatedly and aggressively bashed for even suggesting that someone might want to play without POIs/looting and that in doing so I deserved all the bad things in life.  Nobody was interested in discussing the idea and nobody saw the forge/pipe circular dependency as a real issue.  But it very much is an issue if you want to play a crafting-only play through, which was the main point I was trying to get across in that thread.

 

 

No, I don't think that wasn't you.  I don't recall you demanding the devs change the game to suit your needs.  The one I am thinking of, the OP actually stated that the Devs needed to fix the game so they can play it the way they wanted to, not have to mod it so they can play it the way they want to.

 

The forge / pipe circular dependency only occurs when you eliminate large portions of the vanilla game, which isn't really something that the developers need to address since it is outside the parameters of the game scope they are working on, and an issue that can easily be addressed by modding the game for that person.

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On 3/17/2023 at 6:14 AM, BFT2020 said:

The forge / pipe circular dependency only occurs when you eliminate large portions of the vanilla game, which isn't really something that the developers need to address since it is outside the parameters of the game scope they are working on, and an issue that can easily be addressed by modding the game for that person.

 

Well,  yeah, but the fix is so easy and does nothing to ruin the progression of the game.  Creating a pipe with scrap is no less difficult that beating the life out of a toilet or sink.  Forcing the use of a forged item to make a pipe is a needless dependency unless I am missing something?

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1 hour ago, Maharin said:

 

Well,  yeah, but the fix is so easy and does nothing to ruin the progression of the game.  Creating a pipe with scrap is no less difficult that beating the life out of a toilet or sink.  Forcing the use of a forged item to make a pipe is a needless dependency unless I am missing something?

 

Yes you are missing something.  Nobody is forcing you to use an item from the forge (iron pipes) to make a forge, that is your decision to make rules / conditions outside of the vanilla game:

 

Places to get iron pipes to make a forge:

  • POI loot containers
  • POI Sinks and toilets
  • Trader stock
  • Trash containers

If you remove POIs completely from the game (which TFP have made a critical part of this game), you removed the top 3 methods of getting iron pipes to make anything that requires them in the early game.  TFP clearly made it easy to gather iron pipes early game to get setup, you can get them by just destroying sinks and toilets with a stone axe.

 

The dependency you are focused on is because you, as the player, eliminated the POIs from the game.  So it is up to you, the player, to make changes to the game to suit your playstyle outside of the bounds defined in the vanilla game.

 

I removed the ability to repair equipment in my game, and made it so mods added to equipment can't be removed.  With the base game as it is, you can't keep up at all to make new gear and mods.  Is it TFP responsibility then to adjust those items so that my modifications can work seamlessly in the game?  No, it is my responsibility to figure out what needs to be done; just like it would be your responsibility to make changes to certain elements of the game if you are eliminating POIs and traders.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Maharin said:

 

 Creating a pipe with scrap is no less difficult that beating the life out of a toilet or sink. 

 

It is only if you know that pipes come from toilets and sinks (which new players do not) AND have found a toilet or sink (which means entering a potentially zombie-infested house). Getting scrap is easier.

 

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On 3/7/2023 at 4:25 AM, RipClaw said:

The real problem are mechanical parts. I know of no source that gives you mechanical parts when using the stone axe. You need a wrench but to build it you need mechanical parts.

Easy, smack postage boxes in the city with your stone axe

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1 hour ago, FranticDan said:

Easy, smack postage boxes in the city with your stone axe

Thanks for the tip. I had never tried it before. I checked the blocks.xml for similar sources that give mechanical parts in a destroy event. Garage doors and safes also give mechanical parts but have a lot of hitpoints. But church bells have only 250 HP and give a mechanical part on destruction.

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20 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

 

Yes you are missing something.  Nobody is forcing you to use an item from the forge (iron pipes) to make a forge, that is your decision to make rules / conditions outside of the vanilla game:

 

Obviously.  I'd already modded the game to get where I was at to figure things out.  Please keep in mind that the topic of a crafting-only game came up before I ever stepped into this thread and I was relaying my experience with attempting such a feat.  So the premise is already there for making everything through crafting and all I'm doing is pointing out what would have to change at the bare minimum.

 

Having said that, while we were on the topic, I also asked a simple question of why even have pipes only be created at a forge (that requires a pipe to make)?  I'm not demanding TFP change it nor am I calling them idiots for not changing it.  But I seriously do not understand why the circular dependency needs to be there in the vanilla game.

 

Someday I plan make a crafting-only mod that will fix all the loot-only dependencies to make a version of the game that will allow building everything that can be built from scratch.  I don't see turrets making their way into that version of the game, for instance, nor any of the complicated manufactured things like solar panels.  But I'm not going to seriously mess with it until after release...

 

I'm viewing this crafting-only version as a case of 7DTD in the wilderness (think northern Canada as an example).  Remote areas that aren't overly penetrated by humanity.

 

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16 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

It is only if you know that pipes come from toilets and sinks (which new players do not) AND have found a toilet or sink (which means entering a potentially zombie-infested house). Getting scrap is easier.

 

 

But that's kind of a moot point if you think about it.  Nobody stays new for long and once they do find a source for something they will stick with that until they get more game knowledge and develop a better way (for them) of getting the resources they need.  And there are quite a few POIs with toilets/sinks outside them.  By the time a new player attempts to build their first forge they've most likely found many pipes and a whole lot of scrap.  In A20 I'd argue that by the time someone stumbles onto how to get the knowledge to make a forge, gets up the nerve to spend a valuable point to make one, and then collects the resources to do so they are no longer a "new player".  That's just my opinion, obviously.

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Can't you make pipes from forged iron?  Not that you could get it easily without something to loot/wrench, but I think there is a non-forge way to get them.

 

Granted, that may have been added by a mod.  I don't know that I've ever made pipes, I end up with hundreds of them.

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3 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

Can't you make pipes from forged iron?  Not that you could get it easily without something to loot/wrench, but I think there is a non-forge way to get them.

 

Granted, that may have been added by a mod.  I don't know that I've ever made pipes, I end up with hundreds of them.

 

Yes... but that still requires a forge to make forged iron.  So, currently, there are no ways to make a pipe that do not require a forge, making looting one your only option.  Which isn't a problem in vanilla but it is in the context of a crafting focused play-through.

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1 hour ago, Maharin said:

Yes... but that still requires a forge to make forged iron.  So, currently, there are no ways to make a pipe that do not require a forge, making looting one your only option.  Which isn't a problem in vanilla but it is in the context of a crafting focused play-through.

Sure.  If you somehow made a wrench (which also requires forged iron iirc) you could theoretically wrench something that gives forged iron (assuming you have any POIs to find something to wrench), but I don't know how you'd ever make a wrench.  But yeah, as it is, a crafting only playthrough seems like it wouldn't be possible. 

 

Personally, I don't really see how changing the recipe from forged iron to scrap iron would be a big deal (I mean, honestly, in a normal game does anyone craft pipes?) so I'd be in support of it.

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