I propose to do something

[azazar1280]

I wanted to describe the following opinion, maybe this opinion will be useful. This game is very easy to defend, survive, there is no danger if you understand the mechanics of the game. And the characteristics of zombies do not affect this, because the most important thing is the base. The base, standing aside, is not in danger, because it is simply not attacked. This is the biggest problem in this game, you can always climb into the factory next door and sit out the night at the end of the week without preparing for defense. And this makes building a defense pointless and kills a huge interesting part of the content. After all, even the name of the game implies a confrontation on the 7th day. This is a problem that needs to be solved. I propose to interest zombies in the destruction of the main production buildings. So that the base would make sense to defend.

[Jugom]

that would just force all players into a single playstyle. live and fight in the same place. 
right now they have choices.

[azazar1280]

I agree with you, but now there is no choice. Let this be the server setting

[Cr0wst0rm]

2 hours ago, azazar1280 said:

I wanted to describe the following opinion, maybe this opinion will be useful. This game is very easy to defend, survive, there is no danger if you understand the mechanics of the game. And the characteristics of zombies do not affect this, because the most important thing is the base. The base, standing aside, is not in danger, because it is simply not attacked. This is the biggest problem in this game, you can always climb into the factory next door and sit out the night at the end of the week without preparing for defense. And this makes building a defense pointless and kills a huge interesting part of the content. After all, even the name of the game implies a confrontation on the 7th day. This is a problem that needs to be solved. I propose to interest zombies in the destruction of the main production buildings. So that the base would make sense to defend.

I feel like the earliest alphas with the new pathfinding had like a very long range and it made sure running away very hard. What you describe here is that you can hide and zombers cant find a way to get you. Did they shorten the pathfinding range? Is it possible to extend this range?

[azazar1280]

51 minutes ago, Cr0wst0rm said:

I feel like the earliest alphas with the new pathfinding had like a very long range and it made sure running away very hard. What you describe here is that you can hide and zombers cant find a way to get you. Did they shorten the pathfinding range? Is it possible to extend this range?

no, no, I'm not talking about finding a path, although there are problems with this. I mean every seventh day should be a test. And now you can climb into a large factory, destroy the stairs and wait out this seventh night without damage. Why do we need base walls, base defenses, all these blocks that need to be repaired? It’s easier not to build them and calmly wait out that key night every seventh day. No danger to the objects of your home, no value to protect

[Cr0wst0rm]

9 minutes ago, azazar1280 said:

no, no, I'm not talking about finding a path, although there are problems with this. I mean every seventh day should be a test. And now you can climb into a large factory, destroy the stairs and wait out this seventh night without damage. Why do we need base walls, base defenses, all these blocks that need to be repaired? It’s easier not to build them and calmly wait out that key night every seventh day. No danger to the objects of your home, no value to protect

Like I said i tried this on alpha 17/18 with fresh AI update and tried same thing on bloodmoon and they got to me through the roof, but the stairs thing seems like more of a "design flaw" than AI flaw, because there should be more ways than one set of stairs to get up there..... They did update that zombers try to destroy pillars if the know they cannot get to you, and that is the best what can be done about that (i think)... Early days they wont break anything but with later gamestage they will do great damage to all structures.... even concrete ones

Edited December 9, 2022 by Cr0wst0rm (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

5 hours ago, azazar1280 said:

I propose to interest zombies in the destruction of the main production buildings.

You forgot something important if you want to make the crafting base the target. As long as there is not a player in the chunk with the crafting base, it is not loaded. For the game, none of it exists and accordingly no zombie can spawn there.

 

And by the way, you forget that many players have two bases. A crafting base that can be made visually appealing and a horde base that is there to fight the horde but is more functional than visually appealing.

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Syphon583]

6 hours ago, azazar1280 said:

I wanted to describe the following opinion, maybe this opinion will be useful. This game is very easy to defend, survive, there is no danger if you understand the mechanics of the game. And the characteristics of zombies do not affect this, because the most important thing is the base. The base, standing aside, is not in danger, because it is simply not attacked. This is the biggest problem in this game, you can always climb into the factory next door and sit out the night at the end of the week without preparing for defense. And this makes building a defense pointless and kills a huge interesting part of the content. After all, even the name of the game implies a confrontation on the 7th day. This is a problem that needs to be solved. I propose to interest zombies in the destruction of the main production buildings. So that the base would make sense to defend.

Here's what I've never understood about people wanting to simply "outlast" the blood moon.

 

If a player's choice is to hide in a corner and avoid fighting the zombies, so be it. The cost is that they won't get the valuable reward for defending themselves. That shouldn't matter to others who otherwise play the game as intended.

 

There's nothing to fix.

[azazar1280]

4 hours ago, Cr0wst0rm said:

Early days they wont break anything but with later gamestage they will do great damage to all structures.... even concrete ones

this is a mechanic of the game, they will cause damage to a large factory and then we can restore it with one quest without problems

2 hours ago, RipClaw said:

You forgot something important if you want to make the crafting base the target. As long as there is not a player in the chunk with the crafting base, it is not loaded. For the game, none of it exists and accordingly no zombie can spawn there.

 

And by the way, you forget that many players have two bases. A crafting base that can be made visually appealing and a horde base that is there to fight the horde but is more functional than visually appealing.

 

this is what I propose to fix .. Chunks with the main production buildings must be loaded and valuable buildings attacked. I remember that update about birds attacking cars, it was necessary to somehow solve the problem of the invulnerability of the character every seventh night. What I am writing about is a fundamental solution to this problem.
You are correct when you mentioned 2 bases. But when the understanding of the process comes, then the second base is simply not needed, you can wait out the wave in any large building

[azazar1280]

1 hour ago, Syphon583 said:

Here's what I've never understood about people wanting to simply "outlast" the blood moon.

 

If a player's choice is to hide in a corner and avoid fighting the zombies, so be it. The cost is that they won't get the valuable reward for defending themselves. That shouldn't matter to others who otherwise play the game as intended.

 

There's nothing to fix.

This is the challenge that the game throws at you, this is the challenge that makes the game interesting. This challenge is even stated in its name!

Or you can hide, get a reward and not even risk spending ammo, a lot of experience for free, every 7 days the building itself is repaired through quests. But I'm repeating myself.

Close your eyes to problems. This is misplaced jingoism, let's stand up for problem solving

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, Syphon583 said:

Here's what I've never understood about people wanting to simply "outlast" the blood moon.

 

If a player's choice is to hide in a corner and avoid fighting the zombies, so be it. The cost is that they won't get the valuable reward for defending themselves. That shouldn't matter to others who otherwise play the game as intended.

 

There's nothing to fix.

 

If it is too easy, then yes, there is something to fix. That is called balancing. It matters to TFP since it could matter to players who are so weakminded or minmaxing that they always take the easiest or optimal solution. They would ask "Why should I build defenses for example if I can just sit there and shoot at Zombies at will or not at all with no danger to me?".

 

Though I suspect they will declare it as good enough for this game as they don't want to hinder players to build separate horde bases. And it would mean a redesign in a very fundamental area of the game code they probably don't want to tamper with now.

 

There simply is no solution to this problem that hasn't also serious disadvantages.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

3 hours ago, azazar1280 said:

this is what I propose to fix .. Chunks with the main production buildings must be loaded and valuable buildings attacked.

Good luck trying to identify the crafting base. Any characteristic that can be used to identify that it is a crafting base can be hidden or placed somewhere else.

 

3 hours ago, azazar1280 said:

I remember that update about birds attacking cars, it was necessary to somehow solve the problem of the invulnerability of the character every seventh night. What I am writing about is a fundamental solution to this problem.

I remember that and also the discussion before that. In the end there were two groups, those who wanted to give the players the freedom to play the way they want and those who wanted to enforce a certain way of playing.

 

The vultures are probably some kind of compromise. There were very extreme suggestions, such as that the atmosphere is poisoned during the horde or that it rains acid.

 

3 hours ago, azazar1280 said:

What I am writing about is a fundamental solution to this problem.

Do you think this proposal is new ? Apart from the technical problems, it restricts the freedom of the players. Nobody forces you to sit out the horde on the roof of a factory or to build a separate horde base. You are welcome to fight the horde in your crafting base.

 

3 hours ago, azazar1280 said:

You are correct when you mentioned 2 bases. But when the understanding of the process comes, then the second base is simply not needed, you can wait out the wave in any large building

I use two bases for several reasons.

 

I usually build at least horde bases over the course of the game. An initial base for the first hordes and later one for the endgame that is prepared for radioactive cops and demolishers.

 

Another reason is that the bases are suited for different tasks. The crafting base is supposed to offer enough space for my workstations and the storage and to give me the opportunity to be creative. It has mostly a defense against screamer hordes but nothing that could withstand an endgame horde with 32 zombies at once.

 

The horde base on the other hand should be small, functional but stable. I usually build in several fighting positions and traps.

 

By the way, you don't necessarily need a base. You can fight the horde on the street as well. I have done that multiple times. It's not as hard as you might think. You just need coffee, some points in cardio and enough ammo.

 

And another thing that may shock you. You can also deactivate the horde in the settings under "Blood Moon Frequency".

 

2 hours ago, azazar1280 said:

This is the challenge that the game throws at you, this is the challenge that makes the game interesting. This challenge is even stated in its name!

The game was not named after the horde. The horde didn't exist at all in the beginning. It was named after the infection that killed you after 7 days.

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[zztong]

I'm not sure I'd say a player cowering in a big building is bad. In single player they're getting the game they want. In multiplayer, they're missing out on a lot of experience. That's not closing my eyes to a problem. It is just a different perspective. But, I can, for the sake of discussion and potential for improvement, run with the assumption it is bad. So...

 

What if the zombie AI opened up more options the longer blood moon zombies failed to get closer to the players? For instance, If the zombies have made no progress in a five-minute period, perhaps some number of zombies elect to act like a ladder or stairs. Maybe this means some kind of "general" zombie has to appear that doesn't try to get close to the players, creating an incentive for players to find and kill the general before zombies figure out how to climb.

[azazar1280]

6 hours ago, RipClaw said:

Good luck trying to identify the crafting base. Any characteristic that can be used to identify that it is a crafting base can be hidden or placed somewhere else.

 

I remember that and also the discussion before that. In the end there were two groups, those who wanted to give the players the freedom to play the way they want and those who wanted to enforce a certain way of playing.

 

The vultures are probably some kind of compromise. There were very extreme suggestions, such as that the atmosphere is poisoned during the horde or that it rains acid.

 

Do you think this proposal is new ? Apart from the technical problems, it restricts the freedom of the players. Nobody forces you to sit out the horde on the roof of a factory or to build a separate horde base. You are welcome to fight the horde in your crafting base.

 

I use two bases for several reasons.

 

I usually build at least horde bases over the course of the game. An initial base for the first hordes and later one for the endgame that is prepared for radioactive cops and demolishers.

 

Another reason is that the bases are suited for different tasks. The crafting base is supposed to offer enough space for my workstations and the storage and to give me the opportunity to be creative. It has mostly a defense against screamer hordes but nothing that could withstand an endgame horde with 32 zombies at once.

 

The horde base on the other hand should be small, functional but stable. I usually build in several fighting positions and traps.

 

By the way, you don't necessarily need a base. You can fight the horde on the street as well. I have done that multiple times. It's not as hard as you might think. You just need coffee, some points in cardio and enough ammo.

 

And another thing that may shock you. You can also deactivate the horde in the settings under "Blood Moon Frequency".

 

The game was not named after the horde. The horde didn't exist at all in the beginning. It was named after the infection that killed you after 7 days.

 

you see, nothing can shock me in this game, it's not about me personally, because we have been playing it for many years with different tactics, but it all comes down to something meaningless, twisting the difficulty to the maximum does not solve fundamental problems, but only creates distortions and imbalances.
You mentioned freedom, that's why I'm talking about this option, and the statistics will show how people want to play. With or without attacks on the base. By the way, the cost of the main structures and the impossibility of their transfer directly affects the need to protect them. At the moment, the game is only about protecting the character, and not about protecting your property.

41 minutes ago, zztong said:

I'm not sure I'd say a player cowering in a big building is bad. In single player they're getting the game they want. In multiplayer, they're missing out on a lot of experience. That's not closing my eyes to a problem. It is just a different perspective. But, I can, for the sake of discussion and potential for improvement, run with the assumption it is bad. So...

 

What if the zombie AI opened up more options the longer blood moon zombies failed to get closer to the players? For instance, If the zombies have made no progress in a five-minute period, perhaps some number of zombies elect to act like a ladder or stairs. Maybe this means some kind of "general" zombie has to appear that doesn't try to get close to the players, creating an incentive for players to find and kill the general before zombies figure out how to climb.

the ladder is an interesting idea, but again the hammer turret will keep them from gathering. And it won't solve the problem of using a self-healing structure through quests. Experience by the way, in general, does not disappear, the same hammer turret will do its job. I think that we need to think comprehensively about this problem, any innovation changes the rules of the game. Probably, the question is in the concept to which one should strive, what is it now?

[azazar1280]

7 hours ago, meganoth said:

Though I suspect they will declare it as good enough for this game as they don't want to hinder players to build separate horde bases. And it would mean a redesign in a very fundamental area of the game code they probably don't want to tamper with now.

I noticed that there is often talk about freedom of choice. But in reality, it just doesn't exist. Freedom of choice lies in the creation or selection of the server you are interested in with the given rules, and not in the inability to enter any rules. And everything else is just an attempt to hide behind the freedom of choice, so as not to change anything.

[RipClaw]

10 hours ago, azazar1280 said:

I noticed that there is often talk about freedom of choice. But in reality, it just doesn't exist. Freedom of choice lies in the creation or selection of the server you are interested in with the given rules, and not in the inability to enter any rules.

You realize that you can also play 7 Days to die as a single player game? In fact, according to the Fun Pimps, a lot more players play the game as single player than on a server.

 

[RipClaw]

11 hours ago, zztong said:

I'm not sure I'd say a player cowering in a big building is bad. In single player they're getting the game they want. In multiplayer, they're missing out on a lot of experience.

If you are playing on a server you can simply log out before the horde starts and then log back in 30 minutes later. The horde is then over.

 

I see this "players hiding on a roof during the horde" as a purely theoretical problem that doesn't matter in reality. In fact, it is more likely that players are standing on a roof and shooting down or throwing grenades, pipe bombs or Molotov cocktails down. 

 

As someone who likes to build bases, I would like to see players encouraged to build their own base by giving them an edge or reward them in a way, but I would never force players to do so.
 

 

[azazar1280]

6 hours ago, RipClaw said:

You realize that you can also play 7 Days to die as a single player game? In fact, according to the Fun Pimps, a lot more players play the game as single player than on a server.

 

didn't understand what it was for?

[zztong]

6 hours ago, RipClaw said:

If you are playing on a server you can simply log out before the horde starts and then log back in 30 minutes later. The horde is then over.

 

That's certainly true.

 

You can also just run around. You don't need to stand on a tough building. Just be in the field and move. Some jars of coffee and you're all set. The Z's fall in line behind you and you just kite them all night.

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, azazar1280 said:

didn't understand what it was for?

You always refer to servers and argue that freedom of choice is not given anyway because the server owner sets the rules. I just wanted to make it clear to you that you also have the freedom to choose not to play on a server but as a single player. Then you can set everything the way you want.

 

[BFT2020]

I am starting to feel this is less of a problem, and more forcing others to play a certain way.   🤔

[azazar1280]

6 hours ago, RipClaw said:

You always refer to servers and argue that freedom of choice is not given anyway because the server owner sets the rules. I just wanted to make it clear to you that you also have the freedom to choose not to play on a server but as a single player. Then you can set everything the way you want.

 

you understand that there is no such setting? Please re-read what the discussion is about

7 hours ago, zztong said:

 

That's certainly true.

 

You can also just run around. You don't need to stand on a tough building. Just be in the field and move. Some jars of coffee and you're all set. The Z's fall in line behind you and you just kite them all night.

I agree, this is also a problem, and it seems to me that my proposal will solve it to a large extent. This will force you to be distracted by the defense of the base, which means it will increase the risks and complexity of such a fight.

Edited December 11, 2022 by azazar1280 (see edit history)

[azazar1280]

2 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

I am starting to feel this is less of a problem, and more forcing others to play a certain way.   🤔

I would agree with you if my suggestion wasn't an option in the server settings. In the meantime, these are people who confuse anarchy with democracy, hindering the development of the game

[RipClaw]

6 hours ago, azazar1280 said:

you understand that there is no such setting? Please re-read what the discussion is about

Whether you have a choice does not depend on whether a setting for something is available or not, but only on whether it is possible to do what you want to do. For example, choosing to fight the horde riding a dragon is not possible because there are no dragons in the game, but choosing to fight the horde in your crafting base is possible.

 

You can also impose restrictions on yourself that could never be added as a settings like you can't craft anything but only have to find everything or you have to spend every night in a different POI or that you only use melee weapons. This is called roleplaying and developers like Mad Mole are a big fans of roleplaying. On some occasions the developers were asked if it would not be possible to add settings, for example, that you can no longer shoot when you climb on a ladder. The answer was always that you should just pretend that it is not possible.

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[azazar1280]

5 hours ago, RipClaw said:

Whether you have a choice does not depend on whether a setting for something is available or not, but only on whether it is possible to do what you want to do. For example, choosing to fight the horde riding a dragon is not possible because there are no dragons in the game, but choosing to fight the horde in your crafting base is possible.

 

You can also impose restrictions on yourself that could never be added as a settings like you can't craft anything but only have to find everything or you have to spend every night in a different POI or that you only use melee weapons. This is called roleplaying and developers like Mad Mole are a big fans of roleplaying. On some occasions the developers were asked if it would not be possible to add settings, for example, that you can no longer shoot when you climb on a ladder. The answer was always that you should just pretend that it is not possible.

 

I understand what isolation you are talking about. But I can't get zombies to destroy my buildings to try and protect them. Not in the server settings, not in the game mod. Can you understand it? Well, except that I will use them instead of walls in all-round defense. This is not what is required. Where does such a perverted ideology come from? Who told you that we should click our toes to make it harder and more interesting for us, instead of setting general rules on the server for all players? You're not right.