Bring back ammo quantities, or a close approximation.

[Rotor]

Since everyone is wishing for stuff.

 

I want more ammo.  I know the readily available stuff was cut back in one of the last two or three updates to A20 because the min/maxers  complained about too much.

 

Well, I am doing too much mining and not enough PoI looting.  

 

Where as before I could PoI loot and have enough ammo for Horde Night, or close enough with some mining.

 

My .03.

[theFlu]

A stack of stones sells for a good amount, you can sell three per reset. Smelt the dukes for casings, mine the gunpowder. That's a lot of ammo. Complement with pipe bombs if needed.

[Rotor]

I figured out the dukes thing a bit ago. 

 

No getting around nitrate and coal that I can tell.

 

I am not a hobbit :).

[theFlu]

Oh, I may have misread your first post, I read it as "I mine too much to have the time to go get ammo" instead of "I'm not getting enough ammo, so I have to mine for it". My bad

 

I'm firmly in the min/maxer camp, so I don't have much advice for someone who won't, sorry

[Maharin]

2 hours ago, Rotor said:

I am not a hobbit :).

 

Just as well considering hobbits don't use guns. 

[Viktoriusiii]

Let me tell you: if complaining did ANYTHING for TFPs, this game would be a completely different game nowadays.
They do not care. Much less about their "hardcore" fans.
They only want to do their thing and get new players in. Everything else is at best an accidental result.

Ammo was lowered because you can not have a horrorgame where you have more ammo than you can use.
The ONLY problem is that hordenights need so much ammo.
 

But that would go too deep into a core problem of the game... so let me just say it again:

It wasnt about min/maxing, but to counteract the A17 change from horror survival to looter-shooter... at least a tiny bit.

 

Try using melee for single zombies. Or bow/crossbows.

If you can go in guns blazing, the whole concept lost its purpose.

[meganoth]

10 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Let me tell you: if complaining did ANYTHING for TFPs, this game would be a completely different game nowadays.
They do not care. Much less about their "hardcore" fans.

 

More ammo makes the game easier, hence it would be a move against "hardcore" fans. So if they actually listened to the OP then "hardcore" fans would complain.

 

For nearly all issues you will find people arguing for each side so whatever TFP changes will go against someone. Hence whether they care or not, they have to do "their own thing", that is the only possible way.

 

All this nonsense about "listening to the fans" is almost always a veiled "listen to me and anyone that agrees with me".

 

10 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

They only want to do their thing and get new players in. Everything else is at best an accidental result

Ammo was lowered because you can not have a horrorgame where you have more ammo than you can use.
The ONLY problem is that hordenights need so much ammo.

 

Ammo needed for hordenights directly depends on how well you construct your horde base. If people refuse to use narrow and long passageways and traps then they need to accept that they have to do more menial grindy work before the horde night. I agree though that especially the fortitude player is a bit handicapped because he needs a lot of expensive ammo but mining is in another tree. But that is his choice and handicap, he has the most powerful weapons.

 

10 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

But that would go too deep into a core problem of the game... so let me just say it again:

It wasnt about min/maxing, but to counteract the A17 change from horror survival to looter-shooter... at least a tiny bit.

 

Try using melee for single zombies. Or bow/crossbows.

If you can go in guns blazing, the whole concept lost its purpose.

 

Agreed.

[ElDudorino]

Was ammo reduced? I haven't played Vanilla since a20.3 but at that time the game was drowning me in every type of ammo except .44. I had to have multiple writable storage crates to hold all my ammo. It was pretty out of control. And I intentionally gimp my characters so I'm more of like a min/minner.

[Riamus]

There are various ways and places to increase your ammo looting ability to avoid needing to craft it.  Tier 1 quests often have 100 rounds of 9mm ammo as a reward and are very fast to do.  Travel to a few during the day and do a bunch of the tier 1 quests.  Certain POI, like shotgun messiah usually have a lot of ammo.  At tier 5, Dishong Tower usually leaves you with more ammo than you started with.  You can also loot the treasure map chests for good ammo.

 

In SP, it shouldn't be hard to get enough ammo for horde nights without crafting any... At least until you start using a bunch of auto SMG turrets.  The main thing is not to use guns every day and everywhere.  Use melee whenever you can during quests to conserve ammo.  Except in certain rooms in POI where there are a lot of zombies at once, you don't need guns.  Or use guns that you normally won't use on horde night so you have ammo for horde night for the guns you will use then.

 

If you want to always use guns, then you need to accept that making ammo will be necessary.

[Fanatical_Meat]

19 hours ago, Maharin said:

 

Just as well considering hobbits don't use guns. 

40K Hobbits do….

Technically it’s a Ratling however the resemblance is there 

[Viktoriusiii]

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

All this nonsense about "listening to the fans" is almost always a veiled "listen to me and anyone that agrees with me".

Nah... if fans give valid feedback with reasons for why and how... they take it about as serious as ppl crying because they dislike it personally.
 

Spoiler

I try to never argue from personal view. Just by arguing gamemechanics and interactions between them.

I told them that levelgates was a STUPID idea. Even back in 16.4 when it started... I even talked with MM...

They do not listen. They might create good code... but game design is not their thing.
All the redesigns they did... I'm not perfect and I complained about some changes that feel much better nowadays.
But most stuff is just throwing @%$# at the wall and see what sticks.

But we've had this discussion so many times...
Maybe I am totally wrong... but in all my time in the game and on this forum... not once did they prove me wrong.
 

[Rotor]

So, just a couple of things. 

 

I only use AK on horde nights , about 700 rounds of ammo.

 

During all other times I stick to bow or cross bow, as horde nights seem to drop those by the bucket load.

 

I don't quest. Is too easy then :).

 

Prior to the change I could explore and loot PoIs . ( I play "no loot respawn".), and have just enough for horde night with crossbow back up.  Or some supplemental mining.

 

Now I find myself mining with exploring looting being a 1/7 the portion of the game between horde nights.

 

Edit: corrected phone grammar and some context editing.

 

 

Edited November 19, 2022 by Rotor (see edit history)

[Telric]

1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Nah... if fans give valid feedback with reasons for why and how... they take it about as serious as ppl crying because they dislike it personally.
 

  Reveal hidden contents

I try to never argue from personal view. Just by arguing gamemechanics and interactions between them.

I told them that levelgates was a STUPID idea. Even back in 16.4 when it started... I even talked with MM...

They do not listen. They might create good code... but game design is not their thing.
All the redesigns they did... I'm not perfect and I complained about some changes that feel much better nowadays.
But most stuff is just throwing @%$# at the wall and see what sticks.

But we've had this discussion so many times...
Maybe I am totally wrong... but in all my time in the game and on this forum... not once did they prove me wrong.
 

Why would they try to prove you wrong when most of your posts are negative for negativity's sake... I've never seen a constructive post from you. They do listen to all fans. But there's a big difference in listening to and doing exactly as every fan says.

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Nah... if fans give valid feedback with reasons for why and how... they take it about as serious as ppl crying because they dislike it personally.
 

  Hide contents

I try to never argue from personal view. Just by arguing gamemechanics and interactions between them.

I told them that levelgates was a STUPID idea. Even back in 16.4 when it started... I even talked with MM...

They do not listen. They might create good code... but game design is not their thing.
All the redesigns they did... I'm not perfect and I complained about some changes that feel much better nowadays.
But most stuff is just throwing @%$# at the wall and see what sticks.

But we've had this discussion so many times...
Maybe I am totally wrong... but in all my time in the game and on this forum... not once did they prove me wrong.
 

 

Sure. I try to argue objectively and logically as well and try to keep my personal tastes and views out of it (unless likes and dislikes are part of the topic). Does it work? Obviously no, since I still disagree with a lot of intelligent people on the forum about some things. And the same happens to you.

 

Lets just assume that you were right about many things. And some of them even objectively true, not only from your subjective standpoint. How would they know? There are dozens of other intelligent people arguing here. They would have to keep a tab on dozens of people, noting their opinions on some topics and years later checking which of those people were mostly right after all. For you YOU are the middle of your universe. For them you are one of many forum users.

 

And even if they somehow eventually recognized that you ARE a good designer: How do they know which of your opinions are the right ones? As you said you were also wrong about some things.

 

Some decisions in game design can be logically reasoned or refuted. But many game design decisions depend on something that is not logical, player taste. And at that point logic alone is not enough to determine the right path. 

 

What do you mean "prove you wrong?". Through argument? I have never seen them going deeply into any argument. That would just be wasting time as there are too many players here who want to argue this and that point.

2 hours ago, Rotor said:

Now I find myself mining with exploring looting being a 1/7 the portion of the game between horde nights.

 

 

That sentence is broken and hard to understand.

 

Are you saying you are only 1/7th of each week looting and exploring? And the rest of the time mining for measly 700 bullets of ammo?

 

[Rotor]

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

That sentence is broken and hard to understand.

 

Are you saying you are only 1/7th of each week looting and exploring? And the rest of the time mining for measly 700 bullets of ammo?

 

 

Yep, must be doing something wrong if it is "measly".

 

I guess I will have to keep a diary.

Edited November 20, 2022 by Rotor (see edit history)

[meganoth]

7 hours ago, Rotor said:

 

Yep, must be doing something wrong if it is "measly".

 

I guess I will have to keep a diary.

 

What day is it in your game? What is your level and gamestage? Which tool are you using for mining and what is your perk-level with the mining skills? How much ammo do you get by buying from traders and looting in a day if you go looting (a crude estimate is enough) ? What do you do with the other ammo (9mm, shotgun,...) ? Do you use traps in your horde base?

 

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Rotor]

The easy answers:

 

Day: 219

Lvl:  60

Stage:  144

Iron Pick Axe #5

Strength 7/10

TRex 3/4

69r 5/5

No traps on horde base, that is extra mx, which I dont have the time for.  It takes a game day to fix horde base, sort loot and travel to a couple of traders on bicycle.

 

I havent bought ammo from traders, might start.  I really only use traders to sell what I dont want/need and use dukes for brass.  I will see about selling stone for ammo.

Unsure about ammo loot qties, havent kept count.

 

I may have to resign myself to using traders for more stuff or questing, but I kind of dont like the concept.

 

I think if I have time next year I will learn how to mod.

 

If i get rid off super Zs I wont need that much ammo if at all.  The "Romero Mod" is enticing, but it has a bunch of stuff I dont want.

 

Anyways, ammo was not an issue prior to "the fix" for me :).

[ElDudorino]

Do you play with 10-minute days or something?  I don't see how you could make it through 31 horde nights but only be level 60.  And not even have a steel pickaxe 😮

[Rotor]

10 minutes ago, ElDudorino said:

Do you play with 10-minute days or something?  I don't see how you could make it through 31 horde nights but only be level 60.  And not even have a steel pickaxe 😮

 

Will have to check, think 30 mins..... Took me to like day 100'sh to get chem station

[NekoPawtato]

On 11/19/2022 at 4:16 PM, Rotor said:

I don't quest. Is too easy then :).

 

Prior to the change I could explore and loot PoIs . ( I play "no loot respawn".), and have just enough for horde night with crossbow back up.  Or some supplemental mining.

That sounds tough -- Doesn't this eventually force you into going farther and farther out for supplies (and thus take up more time just to travel?)

Edited November 21, 2022 by NekoPawtato (see edit history)

[NekoPawtato]

Thinking about it some more -- perhaps you could try

• Increasing how long each day lasts
• Increasing loot abundance

Or if modding is fine

• A mod that disassembles ammo you don't need into it's base parts so you can re-use it into ammo you do need, I think there are some of those floating around. For example https://7daystodiemods.com/ammo-disassembly/
• You mention wanting to get rid of super z's, so maybe consider replacing zombies you don't want with something else, this thread explains how: https://steamcommunity.com/app/251570/discussions/5/364042703866683247/
• Increasing just ammo quantity -- I dont know if there's a mod for that already, and im not an expert with the xmls but if you want to try you could look at loot.xml and adjust the quantities, for example increasing quantities for anything tied to ammo762mm so that when you do find that type of ammo, you find more of it

Edited November 21, 2022 by NekoPawtato (see edit history)

[katarynna]

If none of those appeal to you, you could also change the horde to be every 10 or 14 days, or whatever you prefer. 

 

Having more days between hordes will give you those exploration days you have lost.

[Rotor]

55 minutes ago, NekoPawtato said:

That sounds tough -- Doesn't this eventually force you into going farther and farther out for supplies (and thus take up more time just to travel?)

 

Yes, I am an explorer open world type player.  I play on 10k map, and have only looked at 1/4 of of it.

 

27 minutes ago, NekoPawtato said:

Thinking about it some more -- perhaps you could try

• Increasing how long each day lasts
• Increasing loot abundance

Or if modding is fine

• A mod that disassembles ammo you don't need into it's base parts so you can re-use it into ammo you do need, I think there are some of those floating around. For example https://7daystodiemods.com/ammo-disassembly/
• You mention wanting to get rid of super z's, so maybe consider replacing zombies you don't want with something else, this thread explains how: https://steamcommunity.com/app/251570/discussions/5/364042703866683247/
• Increasing just ammo quantity -- I dont know if there's a mod for that already, and im not an expert with the xmls but if you want to try you could look at loot.xml and adjust the quantities, for example increasing quantities for anything tied to ammo762mm so that when you do find that type of ammo, you find more of it

 

Didnt think about day length.  Might actaully do that one as it does not distort the parameters too much.

 

I think I will mod eventually.  Thanks for the links.  They are on "the list" of things to try eventually.  

 

29 minutes ago, katarynna said:

If none of those appeal to you, you could also change the horde to be every 10 or 14 days, or whatever you prefer. 

 

Having more days between hordes will give you those exploration days you have lost.

 

I would like, if at all possible keep the 7D2D theme :).  I will have to mod the Romero mod if I try it before doing my own.  I know Khaine has explained how on his thread, since his mod omits the horde night.

[theFlu]

That day length is pretty key. It seems innocent, but it really changes things, I would always mention day length if I've changed it from default. Long days are great for builders and chill playing, short days make for a lot more hectic cycle.

 

Most people I hear going for shorter days is because "the night is too long and I get bored". While that technically works to speed up the nights, you basically lose more time in a day that way. Any time you spend not being effective is taking twice as large a part of a day. Travel time etc.

 

You have hordes twice as often; they're not as long, sure, but you probably get more overall zeds as you never finish one within half the time.

 

If that's your reason, seriously consider longer days, you'll get more done between. If you go for longer days, also learn to use the nights well, that gives you plenty extra time still. At some point even questing at night isn't that different, half the zeds are ferals and thus running anyways; if you can handle them, you can handle running normies as well.

 

And ignore my tip about selling stone; if you have a box full, then sure, but I thought you were mining for an underground base or something like that - it's not really cost effective to intentionally mine for. If you have an accidental influx of extra stone, then go for it. Bake it into concrete otherwise.

[meganoth]

14 hours ago, Rotor said:

The easy answers:

 

Day: 219

Lvl:  60

Stage:  144

Iron Pick Axe #5

Strength 7/10

TRex 3/4

69r 5/5

No traps on horde base, that is extra mx, which I dont have the time for.  It takes a game day to fix horde base, sort loot and travel to a couple of traders on bicycle.

 

I havent bought ammo from traders, might start.  I really only use traders to sell what I dont want/need and use dukes for brass.  I will see about selling stone for ammo.

Unsure about ammo loot qties, havent kept count.

 

I may have to resign myself to using traders for more stuff or questing, but I kind of dont like the concept.

 

I think if I have time next year I will learn how to mod.

 

If i get rid off super Zs I wont need that much ammo if at all.  The "Romero Mod" is enticing, but it has a bunch of stuff I dont want.

 

Anyways, ammo was not an issue prior to "the fix" for me :).

 

First let me say that I'll give some advice here but just ignore it if it harms the way you want to play. Mod the game it if that better suits you. But one thing is safe to say: The game does not force you to mine for days, not even in vanilla A20.

 

Turning brass into dukes is the most inefficient way to turn dukes into ammo (AFAIK). Even buying stuff that scraps into brass gets a better ratio (though I don't remember if trophies are still buyable at the trader). Even better is to buy casings or complete ammo at the trader.

The other source of brass is looting. If you don't use a wrench to at least wrench down anything that looks reddish in the game (for example those orange pipe connectors or candleholders) you are ignoring free brass.  

 

No traps on a horde base means you need the maximum amount of ammo and the horde does maximum amount of damage meaning a lot more time wasted for repairs EVERY week. Bulding some traps takes time as well, but that is only a one-time expenditure and when they work well they save you time for repairs and ammo scrounging every single week!! 

 

I view traps not necessarily as a means to make damage, but as a means to slow down the horde, make them waste time coming to me. Means less zombies to kill (less ammo) and less time to damage blocks (less repair). And more time to get in head shots because you don't have to deal with all zombies at once (more ammo efficiency. The most simple form of a trap by the way is just a one block deep trench that they have to jump into and out again. And if you have some narrow accessway for the zombies you save a lot of time to build trenches because they don't need to be all around your base.

 

Each week you travel to lots of traders but don't want to utilize them fully (to buy ammo for example). Why then even travelling to all of them? Sounds like forcibly wasting your time, especially since you use the bicycle instead of a faster vehicle. After 219 half-days you should have got ample opportunity and money to buy yourself a motorbike, or build any of the advanced vehicles as you should have found the recipes to complete at least one advanced vehicle by now.

 

You have miner69er and sexrex fully perked but don't use a steel pickaxe. Another inefficiency. Do you at least drink coffee if you have read the book that gets you more resources when you have the coffee boost? Anyway, with a steel pickaxe you have to drink coffee anyway to manage your stamina.