How many more revamps?

[kidmo31]

I am gonna try to keep this simple. Player since release on steam. I have seen this game grow over time. Some good (getting rid of 5x5 crafting ) some bad.

 

The whole point of early access is to grow the game WITH your player base. Fix issues that arise but keep a focus and vision.

Now I hear another revamp is coming to skills and all I can think back to is "How much we are gonna love this system" the last few total overhauls.

I could care less about which system the devs land on but destroying playstyles just because is where I draw the line.

It seems the devs are focusing more on exploits and realism rather than Is this fun? So now with learn by looting Builders and Hunters are getting the shaft.

Everyone now has to be a scavenger there is no choice. That is where this game shines right now is choosing how you want to play and still grow doing it.

 

I know my group will continue to play but we are all wondering WTF is happening with the design side of this game. Systems should have been the starting point not the end and gutting the core systems for I think a 3rd time is getting tiresome. Granted 5x5 crafting was crap. Learn by doing was my jam. Pick a skill I have begrudgingly been playing as Builders were not hindered. Learn by Loot just sounds like trying to solve progression with a hammer. We all railed against Pick a Skill . By moving to Learn by Loot you proved all of us right that it was a crap way to fix progression. We may not be making the game but some of us have put in the time to know what's fun. It is starting to feel like the person making systems is not actually playing the game demonstrated every time Alpha release season is upon us and we watch the creator play the game badly. This is why mods have been the way to go anymore. At least modders listen.

[meganoth]

1) The skill or perk system is not getting a revamp

2) Learn by looting ONLY regulates crafting.

3) ... and crafting of anything with quality (i.e. armors, tools and weapons) was in a bad shape in A17-A20 at least.

4) Modders are often as stubborn about their own creation as TFP is.

 

I don't see what a hunter could do in A20 and would be prevented from doing in A21. Care to explain?

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[JCrook1028]

1 hour ago, kidmo31 said:

The whole point of early access is to grow the game WITH your player base.

That right there is your problem. That's absolutely wrong. The purpose of EA is to gain some CASH so that you can afford to make your game. It is NOT an invitation for the fans to make the game. You have unrealistic expectations.

[Ramethzer0]

20 hours ago, JCrook1028 said:

That right there is your problem. That's absolutely wrong. The purpose of EA is to gain some CASH so that you can afford to make your game. It is NOT an invitation for the fans to make the game. You have unrealistic expectations.

You beat me to it.

 

@OP:  However, I do believe that on some level,  TFP do take the community into consideration.  But, it is still not an invitation to join the Dev team as a not-so-silent-partner.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[Roland]

On 8/22/2022 at 8:04 AM, kidmo31 said:

I am gonna try to keep this simple. Player since release on steam. I have seen this game grow over time. Some good (getting rid of 5x5 crafting ) some bad.

 

The whole point of early access is to grow the game WITH your player base. Fix issues that arise but keep a focus and vision.

Now I hear another revamp is coming to skills and all I can think back to is "How much we are gonna love this system" the last few total overhauls.

I could care less about which system the devs land on but destroying playstyles just because is where I draw the line.

It seems the devs are focusing more on exploits and realism rather than Is this fun? So now with learn by looting Builders and Hunters are getting the shaft.

Everyone now has to be a scavenger there is no choice. That is where this game shines right now is choosing how you want to play and still grow doing it.

 

I know my group will continue to play but we are all wondering WTF is happening with the design side of this game. Systems should have been the starting point not the end and gutting the core systems for I think a 3rd time is getting tiresome. Granted 5x5 crafting was crap. Learn by doing was my jam. Pick a skill I have begrudgingly been playing as Builders were not hindered. Learn by Loot just sounds like trying to solve progression with a hammer. We all railed against Pick a Skill . By moving to Learn by Loot you proved all of us right that it was a crap way to fix progression. We may not be making the game but some of us have put in the time to know what's fun. It is starting to feel like the person making systems is not actually playing the game demonstrated every time Alpha release season is upon us and we watch the creator play the game badly. This is why mods have been the way to go anymore. At least modders listen.

 

Everyone has their definition of "revamp" I don't see these new changes as revamps but as a natural evolution of development. It is a change but the changes are really very minor but do have a large effect on the game. In my opinion, those are the most elegant and interesting changes. A small adjustment that results in a whole new way to play the game is always amazing to witness.

 

There is no way to tell if any particular individual will like or dislike the changes once they play them or whether someone is going to call the changes a "total revamp of the whole game" or not.  I, personally, enjoy the change and look forward to future ones. So how many more revamps? As many as it takes until the creators say their work is done.

[Jugginator]

I guess we could have stuck with A16 and only had several thousand players playing it rather than consistently breaking player count records. Opps (Had to steal an UnholyJoe there).

[Urban Blackbear]

All of them. All the revamps. Presumably some value of N greater than -1.

[Maharin]

Well... let's figure this out.

 

[unholyjoe]

nice going @Jugginator

 

as for revamps... we had major revamps in a17 which was the ground works redone to allow for standardizing and refitting of old wanted ideas to be added and old place holders gotten rid of.. we try to accommodate for as many players as possible and not on a few as Jugg mentioned.

 

can we please them all?  nope, but they want to think they can and you cant fault developers for that... at least they didnt take the money and run like others have done.

 

<now where did i put that cruise ticket>

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by unholyjoe (see edit history)

[SylenThunder]

You have to remember too, a lot of systems you think are "being revamped" are actually just placeholders that are being replaced with the ideas the developers have had for a long time.

 

Joel has openly talked about his ideas for the current skill perk system since before Alpha 10 was even out. Their ideas on the clothing changes and inventory management go back almost as far as well. I recall long debated discussions about how to balance inventory space and carrying capacity to provide some limitations without doing something as encumbering as a weight system.

[Matt115]

4 hours ago, Jugginator said:

I guess we could have stuck with A16 and only had several thousand players playing it rather than consistently breaking player count records. Opps (Had to steal an UnholyJoe there).

Well : " only had several thousand players playing it rather than consistently breaking player count records" that's the best what can be done for game. i mean  only stable serval thousand players.  Gothic is much worst for " west" players that Morrowind but gothic is much more still alive.  Heroes of  Might and magic 3  is soo alive since 1999. But what will happens with for example with Fortnite after 15 years? will be just dead game. I wish i could to give you example of very popular game that are dead now but i can't because are... dead so i don't remeber them. I know you are QA but honestly you should wish that 7dtd would be popular like no more room in hell , HOMAM3 or stalker. Yes stalker 2 is made but will be never such popular as stalker shadow of chernobyl. Why? because looks like typical "AAA studio" game for everyone.  Did you watch Dead Island 1 trailer? check how DI2 trailer looks like. Why? because they want to sell as much copies as possible. While Dead Island was made in " we are going to do well know game" and well Dead Island is still good game. While DI2 looks like cheap parody. I watched a polish channel called Tv Gry - one of member of this channels asked why this game looks that way "because fun parody of B movie from 90" - this is not reboot but sequel while DI1 was pretty dark and controversial but with good taste

 

TFP done similiar thing - game for everyone. That's a problem. Yes sold good... but...  i don't think that 7DTD will be still alive in 2050. 

 

I wish game industry went way  created by a plague tale, tlous or days gone - there is techology etc. but yeah...  fortnite style or " we have realistic graphic but 10 feet sword and flying elephant because "fun""  or " it's realistic but safe as possible" because it's more profitable

 

4 hours ago, unholyjoe said:

nice going @Jugginator

 

as for revamps... we had major revamps in a17 which was the ground works redone to allow for standardizing and refitting of old wanted ideas to be added and old place holders gotten rid of.. we try to accommodate for as many players as possible and not on a few as Jugg mentioned.

 

can we please them all?  nope, but they want to think they can and you cant fault developers for that... at least they didnt take the money and run like others have done.

 

<now where did i put that cruise ticket>

 

Well... i agree about that. At least they didn't do that. I was thinking to buy about diffrent way in 2014 - it was like 7dtd but in SCI - FI setting with bugs.... now this game  is long dead so i even removed it from wishlist

Edited August 24, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[Maharin]

I'm going to make the Dance Dance Revolution mod that forces you to dazzle the zombies with your dance moves in order to kill them.  Horde night will be a time of line dancing and other forms of group dancing ending with Thriller.

[Matt115]

10 hours ago, Maharin said:

I'm going to make the Dance Dance Revolution mod that forces you to dazzle the zombies with your dance moves in order to kill them.  Horde night will be a time of line dancing and other forms of group dancing ending with Thriller.

..... You know there is a game The typing of the dead?

 

 why nobody write " i'm going to make just PZ mod in 7dtd" XD 😭

[ElDudorino]

12 hours ago, Maharin said:

I'm going to make the Dance Dance Revolution mod that forces you to dazzle the zombies with your dance moves in order to kill them.  Horde night will be a time of line dancing and other forms of group dancing ending with Thriller.

 

Um I would actually play this.

[SylenThunder]

21 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Well : " only had several thousand players playing it rather than consistently breaking player count records" that's the best what can be done for game. i mean  only stable serval thousand players.  Gothic is much worst for " west" players that Morrowind but gothic is much more still alive.  Heroes of  Might and magic 3  is soo alive since 1999. But what will happens with for example with Fortnite after 15 years? will be just dead game. I wish i could to give you example of very popular game that are dead now but i can't because are... dead so i don't remeber them. I know you are QA but honestly you should wish that 7dtd would be popular like no more room in hell , HOMAM3 or stalker. Yes stalker 2 is made but will be never such popular as stalker shadow of chernobyl. Why? because looks like typical "AAA studio" game for everyone.  Did you watch Dead Island 1 trailer? check how DI2 trailer looks like. Why? because they want to sell as much copies as possible. While Dead Island was made in " we are going to do well know game" and well Dead Island is still good game. While DI2 looks like cheap parody. I watched a polish channel called Tv Gry - one of member of this channels asked why this game looks that way "because fun parody of B movie from 90" - this is not reboot but sequel while DI1 was pretty dark and controversial but with good taste

You're comparing apples to oranges. None of the titles you listed are voxel games with structural integrity and complex AI pathing. Most of them don't even have random maps. It's just static 2D landscapes.

Without the voxels, you have a lot more freedom in graphics. I cover this in great detail in the Support FAQ.

[Maharin]

Orples are delicious.

 

Prove me wrong? 

[Matt115]

 

1 hour ago, SylenThunder said:

You're comparing apples to oranges. None of the titles you listed are voxel games with structural integrity and complex AI pathing. Most of them don't even have random maps. It's just static 2D landscapes.

Without the voxels, you have a lot more freedom in graphics. I cover this in great detail in the Support FAQ.

Ofc not.

Heroes 3 is just perfect game to master but is soo random in this time. Even small changes on RGM during match can do a lot

Gothic is "dirty" i  can't explain better - if you play in this game in English this will be medicore RPG but its so good because translation into Polish is so good that some quotes are used in normal life... very often XD but is so classic that even mod crated to this game get award Players Choice - Mod of the Year 2021 feature - The Chronicles of Myrtana mod for Gothic II - The Night of the Raven - Mod DB

 

Stalker is unique because is so.... "EAST" - woody, dark, strange but detailed world and strange humor ( but it's unique type of humor). 

Dead Island - i think trailer  was one of the most contoversial and well know in history. Game? extream brutal but realistic in this same time with good story and characters

NMRINH2 - Well game the most closed to Walking Dead even more that Taletall  WD games.

 

"It's just static 2D landscapes." Is so huge mistake - Heroes 3 is considered that looks good while 3D games from this series are thread as terrible from graphic point of view. Why? Because you can check very fast you part of map and it's very necessary if you have time limit to recognise building - this is "Konsa" or "Prison"? 

 

Dead island? Honestly if this game was set in NY or Los angeles would be boring but is so exotic because it set on "island paradice" - so is remember just for that and gore system.. and trailer ofc. 

Stalker - was looking bad always but it's the most "soviet" game. There a game called singuality - compare stalker and this game

 

No more room is.... well Source mod. Models looks bad, Maps are cubic like minecraft  but yeah - hard, nothing is sacred and rly good zombie game

 

"complex AI pathing" This sound like it would be something good. I saw a lot of time comments that 7dtd's zombie are too smart.

Stupid AI is very good thing - stalker's bandits are stupid and this suits to stalker world very good. Dead Island zombie are just zombie... you can just go  behind corner and they will forget about you because... well they are zombie. No more room in hell this same thing but zombie are dangerouse because can you infect you easy and can survive a lot.

 

Yes you are correct that  without voxels you have more freedom in graphic.  But it's not about graphic but artstyle. 7DTD have rly good gameplay. Rly good but artstyle is pretty.... generic. Random maps is good for gameplay that's true but... if you see over and over this same few zombie models - this doesn't matter.  Yes Poi's looks good. But lack of  envrionment story telling make them looking like scenography of SCI FI channels movies. Days gone is just medicore game but places like unversity , warehouse give a lot of information about world. In DL1 most of POI have some story- someone was trapped by zombie so hanged himself, in another house there was gas leak during fight with zombie, on cliff you can find shoes and dead corpse of woman in water below. In NZA 1 you can find houses that was last stand of german and soviet soldiers against zombies, in another place in railway station you can find place where probably soviet group of soldiers was trying to get boat to run away etc.  This could be done  in 7dtd too. But this would need for example more types of corpses and bigger focus not only if something is good for gameplay but if something looks good from aestetic point of view.

 

I could "rework" one of POI's to show what i mean. But it woudn't  be perfect - you know lack of props but it could be example

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[meganoth]

11 hours ago, Matt115 said:

 

"complex AI pathing" This sound like it would be something good. I saw a lot of time comments that 7dtd's zombie are too smart.

Stupid AI is very good thing -

 

Different topics: The AI pathing is complex whether the zombies are smart or not.

 

You are confusing higher level path selection with lower-level finding of ANY path at all.

[Matt115]

1 minute ago, meganoth said:

 

Different topics: The AI pathing is complex whether the zombies are smart or not.

 

You are confusing higher level path selection with lower-level finding of ANY path at all.

Well i don't confused. In Dead Island often zombie can't find any path. Zombie in dead island often will stuck on car, on benches etc. while they could just go around a car. But... This could looks too smart - so if you have something long like paddle you can just stand and hit them with this and they can't do nothing about that. it's much better that GPS 7dtd zombies 

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

Well i don't confused. In Dead Island often zombie can't find any path. Zombie in dead island often will stuck on car, on benches etc. while they could just go around a car. But... This could looks too smart - so if you have something long like paddle you can just stand and hit them with this and they can't do nothing about that. it's much better that GPS 7dtd zombies 

 

DI has fixed cars, benches, etc. If 7D2D had the same, you could just make invincible melee bases with just a few well placed bikes and minibikes or blocks that are impossible to path around for a zombie.

 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Matt115]

Just now, meganoth said:

 

DI has fixed cars, benches, etc. If 7D2D had the same, you could just make invincible melee bases with just a few well placed bikes and minibikes or blocks that are impossible to path around for a zombie.

 

 

Well in DI you can do this same thing that you suggest - cars are not fixed. i mean not every car because some of them are drivable. + for 7DTD that block are destroable for zombies so your option coudn't work because zombie could just destroy blocks/vehicles

[meganoth]

12 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Well in DI you can do this same thing that you suggest - cars are not fixed. i mean not every car because some of them are drivable. + for 7DTD that block are destroable for zombies so your option coudn't work because zombie could just destroy blocks/vehicles

 

Then imagine zombies who are blocked by ANY block that isn't just empty. Wouldn't it look silly if zombies could not even traverse the street because they were blocked by everything, even a garbage heap or a sidewalk in their way? 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Matt115]

23 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Then imagine zombies who are blocked by ANY block that isn't just empty. Wouldn't it look silly if zombies could not even traverse the street because they were blocked by everything, even a garbage heap or a sidewalk in their way? 

 

 

sidewalk on their way? well if you are undeground why not. Well still - zombie who destroy everything on their way no matter if this wall, car or garbage still is better that zombie who can find you everywhere like they were using GPS. Both options are but ofc but first one is a little bit better. I never meet situation when zombie just stand somewhere and do nothing because didn't could find path. but zombie who easy can travel by maze? not big deal. So both options are bad. And explanation that zombie have to be so smart because people using exploit is not working. Some people play "fair" some people focus on exploits. If someone want to ruin his gameplay - well his choice.  Perfect base? Well maybe instead create matrix zombie AI just add big devastator zombie - death corridor would be helpless if big zombie could destroy it with few hits. 

[meganoth]

5 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

sidewalk on their way? well if you are undeground why not.

 

Who said anything about me being underground? 

 

AFAIK in most fixed static worlds the designers of the game actually add specific routes to the game where NPCs can walk. There is no dynamic path finding at all, the basic paths are determined before you even start the game. All the zombie needs to do is select such a path and he is on autopilot for quite a while.

 

In a dynamic world you have to construct for ANY single block where a zombie could stand whether he can cross over to the next blocks in 8 directions. Including checking if going up or down some maximum height makes crossing over possible. Including checking if the free height is enough for standing in the next blocks.

Then you have to construct paths and shortest paths out of this huge matrix of connections and non-connections. 

 

If all you want is the zombie just going the directest path possible then a lot of this is not needed. But then zombies would always hit the wall in front of them even if there is a large opening one block to their right. They would look very artificial because you just moving around would be exactly mirrored by their movement, they could not even go round a simple stone. Don't even think A16, their movement there was much more complicated than a direct beeline.

 

I don't want that, TFP obviously didn't want that either.

 

5 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Well still - zombie who destroy everything on their way no matter if this wall, car or garbage still is better that zombie who can find you everywhere like they were using GPS. Both options are but ofc but first one is a little bit better. I never meet situation when zombie just stand somewhere and do nothing because didn't could find path. but zombie who easy can travel by maze? not big deal. So both options are bad. And explanation that zombie have to be so smart because people using exploit is not working. Some people play "fair" some people focus on exploits. If someone want to ruin his gameplay - well his choice.  Perfect base? Well maybe instead create matrix zombie AI just add big devastator zombie - death corridor would be helpless if big zombie could destroy it with few hits. 

 

Zombies are smart because of exploits? Nonsense. Zombies were made smarter so that the tower defense part was more like tower defense. Death corridors are intentional, whether you like it or not.

 

[Matt115]

11 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Who said anything about me being underground? 

 

AFAIK in most fixed static worlds the designers of the game actually add specific routes to the game where NPCs can walk. There is no dynamic path finding at all, the basic paths are determined before you even start the game. All the zombie needs to do is select such a path and he is on autopilot for quite a while.

 

In a dynamic world you have to construct for ANY single block where a zombie could stand whether he can cross over to the next blocks in 8 directions. Including checking if going up or down some maximum height makes crossing over possible. Including checking if the free height is enough for standing in the next blocks.

Then you have to construct paths and shortest paths out of this huge matrix of connections and non-connections. 

 

If all you want is the zombie just going the directest path possible then a lot of this is not needed. But then zombies would always hit the wall in front of them even if there is a large opening one block to their right. They would look very artificial because you just moving around would be exactly mirrored by their movement, they could not even go round a simple stone. Don't even think A16, their movement there was much more complicated than a direct beeline.

 

I don't want that, TFP obviously didn't want that either.

 

 

 

Well that's why i suggest something betwen this and "GPS always will find a way" 

12 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

 

 

Zombies are smart because of exploits? Nonsense. Zombies were made smarter so that the tower defense part was more like tower defense. Death corridors are intentional, whether you like it or not.

 

 

Well if zombie go on spikes only i 1 place it's looks so bad - it would be much better if let say - have 10 block lengt wall you will have "holes" in 4 places not only in 1