Compo Pack TOS "Addition"

[KhaineGB]

As per Rolands request, I'm starting a discussion thread here on the new Compo Pack TOS addition, which was NOT present as of 6th June, 2022 (anyone can confirm this via wayback machine. Unfortunately I do not know when it was added).

Specifically... this.

"You are encouraged to use the Compopack for personal and server use. However, all permissions for overhauls are removed and The Compopack Team will do a Download to work alongside the overhauls."

Basically, this just killed Compo Pack for any overhaul. I'm currently examining the forum rules to see if I can add into my Darkness Falls TOS that Compo Pack may not create compatibility patches for DF, but I don't think I can.

However, that's not the point of this discussion. The point, is the fact this pack was created by Magoli, collecting POI's that were awesome (at least in A16), getting permission from all the various people to put it in a pack, and then putting it out there for anyone to use.

This "addition" is completely against the spirit of compo pack. No, I don't care of Stallion supposedly had people create POI's EXPLICITLY for CP. If that's the case, those should be 100% seperate from the pack, with their own TOS (if such a TOS is even permissable by the forum rules since it's using 100% TFP assets. I am unsure on this). I haven't removed it from Darkness Falls yet, because I'm not going to put out a V4.03B just to remove CP, when 20.6 will be going stable at some point soon and I have 4.04 ready to go for that version of the game (which WILL have CP removed as per the TOS).

I understand that my viewpoint is heavily skewed due to the fact I'm an overhaul maker, this will screw my work process, and it will also screw my users, but I am 100% against adding a TOS randomly, then PM'ing overhaul creators and going "Hey, you can't use my stuff, remove it" (which has happened to me and Rizzo for sure).

Am I just over reacting on this? Thoughts?

Also I'm looking at building my own compo pack now, with blackjack and hookers... actually I'm using the old A19 one as a base and contacting the prefab creators to ask for permission to update and use them, and Krunch is helping with this endeavour.

[Blackgryphon]

I don't think you are over reacting to this at all.  One of my players copied and pasted the TOS from the Compo Pack Discord and we are all shocked/@%$#ed

I don't have any prefabs published yet, but I can and do make them for my own server.  And I have some players that make amazing POI's too.  We would love to contribute to this endeavour.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Crater Creator
bypassing profanity filter (see edit history)

[seven]

If you look at the edit history of the compopack topic it appears the TOU was added 14 hours prior to my post now.

[KhaineGB]

6 minutes ago, seven said:

If you look at the edit history of the compopack topic it appears the TOU was added 14 hours prior to my post now.

Interesting. I thought it was last week or so because Rizzo got contacted to remove it from Joke Mod (which is why he had to push out an update)

[seven]

Perhaps it was a week ago the new TOU was posted on the discord, or maybe I'm reading it wrong, but when I looked at edit history It was not present in the previous update, only appearing in the latest update which was timed 14 hours ago.

[KhaineGB]

Yep, found it. So the TOS was only added today, but Joke Mod posted an update on 25th July that they had to remove it for "reasons" (that was the public reason, but apparently Rizzo was PM'ed and asked to remove it)...

So... yeah. That's not on.

[Guppycur]

My take:

 

With so many poi's donated from prefab makers it's a little weird that Overhaul's are being told not to use CP; this goes against the original spirit of the CP in that it's free for everyone to use, and I think it's a bad decision on their part, because prefabbers may be hesitant to say "yes" when asked for CP inclusion because of the moderated usage.

 

BUT.  ...and this is a big but.

 

I think it's their decision to make, because they DO have poi's that were created by CP specifically for CP.

 

The ones that were updated seem to be a grey area.

 

So, my final viewpoint is, there's obviously something more going on than what's visible from the surface, and I hope it gets resolved.

[KhaineGB]

16 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

I think it's their decision to make, because they DO have poi's that were created by CP specifically for CP.

This bit is why I said I feel those POI's should have been released as a CP "add on" pack with the TOS included. That way, those POI's can be protected, while any other POI included because the maker gave permission would NOT be subject to the restrictive TOS.

Best solution IMO.

[Guppycur]

I think that's a fantastic idea.

[WickesGuru]

17 minutes ago, KhaineGB said:

This bit is why I said I feel those POI's should have been released as a CP "add on" pack with the TOS included. That way, those POI's can be protected, while any other POI included because the maker gave permission would NOT be subject to the restrictive TOS.

Best solution IMO.

Definitely a better solution. Why use such a blanket TOS? Definitely weird and definitely not what I understood to be the idea behind compopack in the first place.

[Cpt Krunch]

This pack is not owned. Its entirely too large in and of itself to be used make maps in any real ordered or organized way at this point. Its a collection to select and build from, not a single offering for any one person or group. I thought that was the point of overhauls, right? A community compilation to extend play and world building beyond Vanilla is what the Compilation Pack is.

This collection needs curation, not ownership. When the game does go Gold, and they do enable Workshop, everyone involved over the years will be grateful its all intact and available.  Everything that has occurred since roughly A19 has been entirely counter to that philosophy, with the final result being someone who owns a handful of game models trying to slap TOS on an entire community worth of work. Thats no bueno.

[gdragon]

As I disagree with this change to compo pack I will be adding all my prefabs to Nexus only from now on where all overhauls out can use or them as they wish. Modders who make overhauls should not have to jump over hoops to use compo pack. This will pretty much kill off compo pack in the end with the TOS. Any way said what I wanted to big respect to all overhaul modders. 

[Frekton]

Does the compo pack team have the right to TOS others freely donated work? Do they have written permission from each poi author? This is where I would think TFP need to step in and clarify what their official stance is. If they don't I feel like things will get worse.

[Afriendlynomad]

Just curious, 

Has anyone asked the individual why?

What's the motivation? 

[zztong]

57 minutes ago, Frekton said:

Does the compo pack team have the right to TOS others freely donated work? Do they have written permission from each poi author? This is where I would think TFP need to step in and clarify what their official stance is. If they don't I feel like things will get worse.

 

This is an interesting question. I think the CP team can put TOS on their work in the form of curating and assembling a library of original and derivative works. I am unaware of the CP team ever demanding exclusive rights to distribute. Thus, they do not have the ability to impose the CP TOS upon the original works that are made and distributed elsewhere, nor are they required to distribute anyone's work.

 

For instance, my modlet contains my original works. My modlet has its own TOS (the GPL). My modlet can be downloaded elsewhere. My license permits anyone, including the CP team, to modify and distribute my work. This in no way limits my ability, or the ability of others, to distribute my own modlet.

 

I would point out the 7D2D game license gives TFP extensive rights to all works created by their game (including the Prefab Editor). I'm not suggesting they should use that in some way here, just that it is an example how multiple legal agreements can apply at once.

For full disclosure, I do try to work closely with the CP team, including some occasional "spec" work, providing information, comparing notes, and other random support. I value the friendships I have made with various team members. I willingly contribute my work to the CP and respect their efforts. I would be nowhere without the support Stallionsden and the crew has given me over the past 18 months.

Edited August 4, 2022 by zztong (see edit history)

[Guppycur]

1 hour ago, Frekton said:

Does the compo pack team have the right to TOS others freely donated work? Do they have written permission from each poi author? This is where I would think TFP need to step in and clarify what their official stance is. If they don't I feel like things will get worse.

We absolutely do not want tfp stepping in. If they do, they will have to make a decision, and it will affect everything going forward. We absolutely want to sort this out for ourselves, because right now we have a pretty good thing, and official rules can ruin that. Because then they have to start enforcing them.

 

... There's way too much overlap in modding.

 

We don't want government oversight. 🙂

[zztong]

9 hours ago, KhaineGB said:

Also I'm looking at building my own compo pack now, with blackjack and hookers... actually I'm using the old A19 one as a base and contacting the prefab creators to ask for permission to update and use them, and Krunch is helping with this endeavour.

 

That's an interesting approach. By going back to A19, I think you get a version of CP that was released under different TOS. Getting permission from the creators seems important from my armchair-total-novice-lawyer perspective. From a work standpoint, oh boy... I'm not sure if you realize what all you've bitten off.

 

7 hours ago, Cpt Krunch said:

This collection needs curation, not ownership.

 

I don't think you get one without the other. Curation will likely mean modification, creating a derivative. The curator will own the derivations (the changes), just not the original. If you're starting with A19, you've got a mountain of changes to make.

 

5 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

We absolutely do not want tfp stepping in.

 

Yeh, and I doubt they want to get involved. Community in-fighting looks to me like a lose-lose proposition for them. I sense Roland searching the web for the lyrics to Kumbaya at this very moment.

[Guppycur]

14 minutes ago, zztong said:

 

That's an interesting approach. By going back to A19, I think you get a version of CP that was released under different TOS. Getting permission from the creators seems important from my armchair-total-novice-lawyer perspective. From a work standpoint, oh boy... I'm not sure if you realize what all you've bitten off.

To that point I don't think prior permission can be revoked without that possibility being in the original ToS.

 

...but this is a video game and we are players, so nothing would ever stand up or even make it to court, so we're going to be defined by the rules tfp sets and I'd personally like to avoid that. 😃

 

So, in the spirit of the new fire mod...

 

[KhaineGB]

28 minutes ago, zztong said:

That's an interesting approach. By going back to A19, I think you get a version of CP that was released under different TOS. Getting permission from the creators seems important from my armchair-total-novice-lawyer perspective. From a work standpoint, oh boy... I'm not sure if you realize what all you've bitten off.

I updated 25/26 prefabs from A19 to A20 standards and that took me most of the day. (and by this, I mean 'made them fit into tiles so they could spawn' and that worked pretty well)

So I am very aware the selection I have could take me the best part of 1-2 weeks

Edited August 4, 2022 by KhaineGB (see edit history)

[Frekton]

I understand that oversight is not sought after, but sometimes a clear guideline on what is and not acceptable would help clear things up moving forward. I mean who wants to put in endless hours of work only to find out it can't be used as intended .

[Guppycur]

6 minutes ago, Frekton said:

I understand that oversight is not sought after, but sometimes a clear guideline on what is and not acceptable would help clear things up moving forward. I mean who wants to put in endless hours of work only to find out it can't be used as intended .

Once you invite the govt into your house, you can't get them to leave.

 

At any rate, this seems to be sorting itself out so fingers cross this thread dies. 😃

[zztong]

26 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

To that point I don't think prior permission can be revoked without that possibility being in the original ToS.

 

 

Right, though what was the permission granted? If a designer granted permission to include their POI in the CP, did they envision somebody taking the CP and making an Alt-CP? That's hard to say. Like you say, nobody is going to court over this, but if Alt-CP folks want to avoid the possibility of bad Public Relations with a POI designer, asking for permission would seem wise.

 

Just now, Guppycur said:

At any rate, this seems to be sorting itself out so fingers cross this thread dies.

 

My fingers are crossed.

[KhaineGB]

I've currently got permission from at least 4 people who submitted stuff to CP to update and include their POI's in the pack.

Krunch is helping as well and has obtained permission for others. I need to compile a list later.

 

Speaking of @zztong I think some of your POI's are in here so I'll have to see if you've updated and then request perms from you too

Edited August 4, 2022 by KhaineGB (see edit history)

[Roy02]

TOS for CP is messed up, apparently undergoing revision.   very frustrating and confusing.

 

[Annihilatorza]

Speaking from real world experience generally anything you make while working for a company you don't own it.

 

All the POI ever made for 7D2D belong to the TFP and only them, it does not matter if you spent 1000 hours on it, you still used their assets to make it.

 

All of sudden saying you own the Combopack and no one is allowed to use it unless you say so, is very against the sprit of this community.

 

What this will mostly like lead to, is all the people that made POI and were included in the CP will withdraw their permissions to CP to use their POI in it.

 

Is it exactly what happed to Mod Nexus.

1 minute ago, Roy02 said:

TOS for CP is messed up, apparently undergoing revision.   very frustrating and confusing.

 

Its simple, you are welcome to use it for what ever you want to use it for, except for sales and exploitation ect ect