Why there will never be similiar game to 7DTD - observations, problems and conclusions

[Matt115]

I was checking steam and how trends now looks like and 7dtd don't have any concurency: 

Why? I have some conclusions about both "potential" game and how trends looks like :

First i will start about potential game problems :

To avoid looking like bootleg game need some diffrences

1. Place and Time set - 7dtd is set X years after zombie outbreak but not too long to technology be forgotten. Navezgane looks like most typical WD cities etc (that's nothing bad, even better because people who likes WD want to play in 7DTD). So there is 2 option : set in diffrent places - but this is big problem --> big city in voxel game would be gigantic problem ( try to imagine yourself how it could looks like NY from WWZ but as voxel game) and set in diffrent county make some logical problems - people like games set in USA, number of guns is connected with country so if this game would be set in for example France number of weapons in houses etc should be low).  And diffrent time: 1. During outbreake --> but this mean more zombies that in 7dtd + more human npc = a lot of work 2. 50+ after zombie outbreak but this mean guns will be rare and more focus on mining and scavenging that on looting so gameplay can be slower

2. Style : this game have to be more seriouse like no more room in hell 2. Why? because 7dtd in balancing between be seriouse and dark humor. Dead Rising 1 was balancing and it was great. But DR4 was just.... embarrasing because it's looks like parody.  And DF is even less seriouse that 7dtd so there is bigger concurency. So it have to be dark - hanging people, mass graves, sad notes etc. So there is big problem and this is point 3

3. Zombies : to avoid copy pasting zombie have too looks diffrent that in 7dtd and that's would be problem. Why? because only left fresh zombie like L4D2 or " zombie like" similiar to B4B, MGS. 1. this can be good but this mean zombie number have to be bigger but weak  so number of max players will be lower. And there is problem with zombie variants --> zombie teenagers, riot armor etc can be added but this will be problem to make range, spawner, agility , boom zombie diffrent enough to avoid copy pasting. 2. People don't like riddlers and MGS zombies because prefere more realisitc ones variants

4. tool/ weapons tiers-  Weapons is not too big problem because it can be done a lot of guns types, ammo etc but tools are limited. Stone axe, iron, steel will be similiar so diffrent model and how to make don't solve a problem this mean more complexed system - stone primive axe , stone pebble axe etc but 

5. POI - Well in 7dtd buidling is limited because blocks and there in no option to put 1 block on 4 similiar blocks ( like 1  stone cannot be put on 4 stone block right?) so potential game would be even more limited to avoid copy pasting 7DTD

 

Now trends and market:

1.  MC is not so popular now at it was popular in 2013 so people wound't be so excited about new game because now more popular are battle royale and horror linear games. Ofc there are game like vintage story but are not such popular.

2. 7DTD is still in develepment since 2013 so... there people woudn't be so wiling to buy another "long development" similiar game

3. 7dtd is cheap so potential game have to be cheaper because it's better option to buy better know 7dtd that's buy not well known game that can be left by their developers ( i had choose between 7DTD and sci fi voxel game - i choose 7dtd and this other game is long time dead so i was lucky)

4. Mod community will stay with 7dtd because.... I think people who makes complexed mods will more focused on better know system etc that start anew on new game

 

 

So conclusions :

TFP have to not to worry about new competition but it's bad news for players. Why? because there will be no 7DTD 2 so only hope are potentail DLC or mods to get something new.

 

 

 

[Syphon583]

5 hours ago, Matt115 said:

there will be no 7DTD 2

What are tomorrow's lotto numbers, fortune-teller?

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, Syphon583 said:

What are tomorrow's lotto numbers, fortune-teller?

No, TFP comfirmed that they want to make another game and this will be not 7dtd 2.

Edit: so we can expect  any news 7dtd 2 for few years at least 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[Syphon583]

Right, but you just said yourself news of 7DTD 2 could be some time. I love your passion for the game, Matt115, just pointing out the fact that no one from the TFP has ever stated at any point that there would never be a sequel to the game.

 

As for your other points, I haven't done much searching myself, but it does appear on the surface that TFP have something truly unique and special. That being said, I think it's a bit disingenuous to say the they don't have to worry about competition. Video games are a unique market in that really all gamers want are to be entertained. 7DTD might provide a unique experience, but if TFP don't deliver a consistently good and enjoyable experience, their competition is ANY OTHER GAME. It doesn't have to directly compete in the same space of "voxel zombie survival".

 

TFP also know that games have finite life spans. The hope is certainly that 7DTD becomes more and more popular, but there will come a day when the player base shrinks. Sure there will be a few who will play it for years and years to come, however it might not be worth it for TFP to continue developing new content and features, even in the form of DLC. All of this is why TFP (and pretty much all developers) plan on making other games. Learn from what they did in the past, take what works and polish it, put a new spin on it, innovate, and above all, make something fun.

 

I love 7DTD and have put in way more hours than I care to admit. But I also cannot wait to see what this studio does next. If my experience with 7DTD is any indication, I'm going to play the hell out of it, whether or not it's a voxel zombie survival game.

[Maharin]

Of course there won't be a 7DTD2.  It will be 14DTD instead.  Duh.

 

It will be twice the fun with a unique pseudo-PvP experience, zip lines, learn by doing, and a crafting grid that will make you weep openly.

[Callum123456789]

3 minutes ago, Maharin said:

Of course there won't be a 7DTD2.  It will be 14DTD instead.  Duh.

 

It will be twice the fun with a unique pseudo-PvP experience, zip lines, learn by doing, and a crafting grid that will make you weep openly.

we both know roland loves zip lines he'll be here soon haha

 

[Ramethzer0]

11 minutes ago, Callum123456789 said:

we both know roland loves zip lines he'll be here soon haha

 

Roland bustin in on POI's like:

[Matt115]

2 hours ago, Syphon583 said:

Right, but you just said yourself news of 7DTD 2 could be some time. I love your passion for the game, Matt115, just pointing out the fact that no one from the TFP has ever stated at any point that there would never be a sequel to the game.

 

As for your other points, I haven't done much searching myself, but it does appear on the surface that TFP have something truly unique and special. That being said, I think it's a bit disingenuous to say the they don't have to worry about competition. Video games are a unique market in that really all gamers want are to be entertained. 7DTD might provide a unique experience, but if TFP don't deliver a consistently good and enjoyable experience, their competition is ANY OTHER GAME. It doesn't have to directly compete in the same space of "voxel zombie survival".

 

TFP also know that games have finite life spans. The hope is certainly that 7DTD becomes more and more popular, but there will come a day when the player base shrinks. Sure there will be a few who will play it for years and years to come, however it might not be worth it for TFP to continue developing new content and features, even in the form of DLC. All of this is why TFP (and pretty much all developers) plan on making other games. Learn from what they did in the past, take what works and polish it, put a new spin on it, innovate, and above all, make something fun.

 

I love 7DTD and have put in way more hours than I care to admit. But I also cannot wait to see what this studio does next. If my experience with 7DTD is any indication, I'm going to play the hell out of it, whether or not it's a voxel zombie survival game.

I was wrong. I made mistake because they want to next game be not "7dtd2 "  but i forget about this part that there is a chance for sequel in future. Bad memeory.

 

1. Yes and no in this same time - there is no competition for dynasty warriors ( samurai, orochi etc belong to this same company), Sniper elite  ( yes there is sniper warrior made by CI but it's smaller game and Rebellion have "bullet xray" patent xd), Devil may cry ( bayoneeta is this same developer ,  dante inferno and  castlevania lord of shadow are dead), this same thing with cod or gta ( i know about Saint row but devs decided to change setting because gta is much more powerfull, even fifa. Heroes of might and magic 3 (1999) is still alive (there were tournament in this year)  , this same thing with gothic 2 in my country. So...  TFP have nothing to much worry about new game - because... well if i good remember there planes for 2 similiar games but.... this games are dead now ( i heard nothing new about them for long time so this games are 99% probably dead).  Honestly 7DTD is not competetive to DL2 or NZA.  No more room in hell 2 is  in competetive with Contagion but not with 7dtd.

So 7dtd will be safe. I mean - it will be not supported forever but people still will bought this game because there isn't any competitor. And i think 7dtd will be safe for at least next 5 - 10 years. Why? Well mods.... it's hard to make something orginal if there is a chance there is mod which is similiar and free - that's why CA don't make LOTR total war- because there at least 3 big mods for free for older and cheaper total wars

 

[Matt115]

2. but i'm almost sure that next game will be not... 7dtd similiar.  Idk what this game will be diffrent that 7dtd.  Maybe we will get first info about that game after A21 this would be logical - short period before gold release , probably they are working on this new game too ( i mean by this - making story, concept arts, talking about mechanics etc) . I'm just almost sure this will be this november. Why?  EA of no more room in hell 2  + probably annoucement about NZA 5

[pApA^LeGBa]

4 hours ago, Matt115 said:

No, TFP comfirmed that they want to make another game and this will be not 7dtd 2.

Edit: so we can expect  any news 7dtd 2 for few years at least 

 

They confirmed that their next game is not 7DTD 2. They didn´t say they will never make a 7DTD 2 though. Still might happen after their next game.

 

And apart from the time it´s set in and a completly destroyable world there is a lot of survival/crafting games that are similiar. Even with towerdefense elements.

[Matt115]

12 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

They confirmed that their next game is not 7DTD 2. They didn´t say they will never make a 7DTD 2 though. Still might happen after their next game.

 

And apart from the time it´s set in and a completly destroyable world there is a lot of survival/crafting games that are similiar. Even with towerdefense elements.

I wrote that i forget that so sorry for this mistake 😅

but you forget about 2 elements - realistic and zombie.

Vanaheim is ??cartoon??(idk how to decribte)  fantasy , terraria is 2d fantasy, MC is MC,  Factorio is more focused on crafting that looting + sci fi + no zombie + "2d" , rust conan and ark are focused on pvp and fantast/sci fi.  State of decye is not voxel and "survivor managemnt" game that alone survivor 7dtd, this same thing with MG survival. So 7dtd  don't have competitor because is orginal enough that contagion , metal gear survival or conan

Edited May 31, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Matt115 So? There is too many zombies in games, movies and shows anyways. Realistic? Yeah sure, in the sense of that the world could exist in reality, if it wasn´t for the zombies. A lot of stuff is very unrealistic like in most games. And who wants games to be like each other anyways?

 

It does have a lot of competitors. Unless you only play zombie games in a realistic world that is fully destructable. Wich is a very specific. There is Project Zomboid for example, only misses the fully destructable world. But it´s way harder and way more realistic. You can´t carry tons of stone, you can carry a lot, but it´s reasonable.  You can´t put a vehicle in your inventory. The game mechanics go way deeper including boredom and depression. And it´s actually hard. Even on easy settings. It´s permadeath only. You can spawn back in the world as it was and use everything you already built and looted, but you character is at zero again.

 

That´s just one example of a competitor.

 

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Matt115]

13 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@Matt115 So? There is too many zombies in games, movies and shows anyways. Realistic? Yeah sure, in the sense of that the world could exist in reality, if it wasn´t for the zombies. And who wants games to be like each other anyways?

 

It does have a lot of competitors. Unless you only play zombie games in a realistic world that is fully destructable. Wich is a very specific. There is Project Zomboid for example, only misses the fully destructable world. But it´s way harder and way more realistic. You can´t carry tons of stone, you can carry a lot, but it´s reasonable.  You can´t put a vehicle in your inventory. The game mechanics go way deeper including boredom and depression. And it´s actually hard. Even on easy settings. It´s permadeath only. You can spawn back in the world as it was and use everything you already built and looted, but you character is at zero again.

 

That´s just one example of a competitor.

 

 

Okay "realistic" at least in my enviroment mean - realistic graphic and we are trying be serious and "world is dirty".  Example -  uncharted is serious sometimes sometime comedy with realistic graphic but you know this "light" tone. In plague tale you have fantasy world but it's "realistic" in this same time -  battles are brutal and bloody, shoes are expensive, you most time are dirty etc. This same thing with Horizon zero dawn - it's sci fi but realistic in this same time- aloy as kid go barefoot because kid grow up fast so not point to make them shoes, people are fighting for food , people using parts of robots because it's main source of metal  etc.  There is big diffrence between for example game of throne and lord of the rings right but both are fantasy with dragons right?

Bordelands in cartoonish, Dead rising 4  is parody. WD tv show is seriouse and realistic while nation Z is dark comedy. 

So we can say contagion , days gone are realistic because 1. graphic 2. be serious - motivation of our characters , behaving, 3. world buidling - locked corpses in university, zombie children, hanging corpses , brutality etc

 

Contagion are  NMRIH are similiar, this same thing with l4d2 and back 4 blood. But They are bilions and factorio is much diffrents that each other - i mean from person who is checking game by checking gameplay, wiki etc. They are bilions is about survive as long as you can againt endless zombie waves + SP only , making buidling , units etc In factorio you defence yourself sometimes against bugs but most time you take care about economy . I think both games are diffrent enough that some people will love factorio and hate  they are bilions. 

But do you know similiar game to NZA3? 

 

And about Project zomboid i would agree if Project zomboid were  fps too. This like saying that Minecraft and terraria are competitors - for  people who just play game time to time yes but for person who spend a lot of time playing not - Terraria would be more like darksouls competitor that minecraft - you have too kill boss to get acccess to someting, you lose currency after dead, a lot of diffrent weapons , enemies and bosses, you  can be killed very fast , skill mean a lot etc but if i had too choose - terraria or ds during sales i would.... buy 1 game now and another one during new sale because are diffrent enough to be both worthy to buy in longer period of times.

But l4d2 and B4B are similiar enough that there is no point to buy both games - you want more polished with better gore game - l4d2 , you want game with grinding - b4b. This same thing with contagion and No more room in hell 2 ( there will EA in december) - you want easier  with lighter setting  game - Contagion , you want harder and more darker setting  Nmrih2. 

 

Even NZA1 and NZA4 have much diffrent style . NZA is more like - what if in sniper elite universe happend zombie apocalypse and our characters are serious because this serious problem for them -  it's like how we would behave if  our world was attacked by aliens . NZA4 in this same time is more like dark comedy l mixed with indiana jones.

 

So fantasy don't mean it can't be realistic - quiet place is sci fi but realistic ( rules about silent, how things works,  etc)  movie. While Mars attack! by tim burton is just comedy both movies are about  aliens

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Project Zomboid isn´t just for casuals that play from time to time. It´s very complex and hard. And the only two differences besides way deeper game mechanics and a destructable world is that it isn´t first person. No casual player will have any fun with PZ. It´s basically the one hardcore zombie game for experienced players.

 

How is L4D like 7D? It´s a pure shooter. Same for B4B. Those don´t compare to 7D at all. And right now i have honestly no clue what the other abbreviations you are using mean. Propably know them, but right now they slip my mind.

 

That said, gameplay > graphics. By a ton of miles. If graphics is a importnant factor for you, we can stop discussing now. As long as it looks better than minecraft i am fine. Same for the first person view. I don´t care if it´s first, third person or iso as long as the gameplay is good.

 

 

Edited June 1, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Matt115]

4 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Project Zomboid isn´t just for casuals that play from time to time. It´s very complex and hard. And the only two differences besides way deeper game mechanics and a destructable world is that it isn´t first person. No casual player will have any fun with PZ. It´s basically the one hardcore zombie game for experienced players.

 

How is L4D like 7D? It´s a pure shooter. Same for B4B. Those don´t compare to 7D at all. And right now i have honestly no clue what the other abbreviations you are using mean. Propably know them, but right now they slip my mind.

 

That said, gameplay > graphics. By a ton of miles. If graphics is a importnant factor for you, we can stop discussing now. As long as it looks better than minecraft i am fine. Same for the first person view. I don´t care if it´s first, third person or iso as long as the gameplay is good.

 

 

... i mean - read descibtion + screens + trailers on steam  A lot of people buying games during sales.  So there is competition betwen 7DTD nad Project zomboid.

i mean there is competition between L4D2 and back 4 blood, contagion and no more room in hell 2 ,  let hell loose and red orchestra,  between squad and insurgency firestorm.  These games are similiar  - l4d2  and B4B fast zombie with mutants, contagion and room - slow zombie  and doing quest on map etc

Project zomboid is much diffrent that 7dtd.  But MC and vanaheim is more  similiar each other.

 

i heard that that people prefered to buy 1/4 funt burger that 1/3 funt burger because they thought that 1/4 burger is bigger so cheaper XD So during steam sales people buying a lot of diffrents games - and honestly check how project zomboid pages looks like and then 7dtd - both game looks much diffrent . Now check  L4D2 and b4B - looks similiar. So probably typical player will choose easy 7dtd or project zomboid but it would be harder choose about l4d2 and B4B.

 

Andi heard that a lot of people that bough game on steam during sales never played in this games. Gameplay is more  important right. As a player i have to agree. But if you decided to watch on this from marketing point of view graphic is more imporant - because typical person can't know if game will be fun for them while graphic is easier to judge if is good or not. So probably there are much less people that make research about if this game is worth to buy that  people who is buying game because "emotions". 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

Minecraft and Valheim aren´t as similar as 7D and Project Zomboid are. Even if judge the looks only, Valheim and Minecraft are far from similar. People who only go by looks deserve bad games tbh.

[Matt115]

8 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Minecraft and Valheim aren´t as similar as 7D and Project Zomboid are. Even if judge the looks only, Valheim and Minecraft are far from similar. People who only go by looks deserve bad games tbh.

Well 7dtd and zomboid are both zombie games but... while MC is typical fantasy and Valheim is viking setting. So maybe better example would be Darkness dungeon 2 and home behind 2 about similiar games. But still 7dtd is not competetive with project zomboid - 7dtd is like cod while zomboid like arma (if you base only on steam).  

I agree about last one but.... " 36,9% zarejestrowanych na Steamie gier nie zostało nigdy włączonych" this mean in english  36,9% of games registered on steam was never turn on. But well.... they bought this games so this is still a profit for companies right?

[Maharin]

49 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

" 36,9% zarejestrowanych na Steamie gier nie zostało nigdy włączonych" this mean in english  36,9% of games registered on steam was never turn on. But well.... they bought this games so this is still a profit for companies right?

 

Keep in mind that Steam has a LOT of sales where you get bundles of game for cheap.  That is where a lot of people get the dead weight in their game inventory, in other words they "buy" games that they never intended to play but got as a bonus to get other games they did want to play.  It's pretty hard to be on Steam and spending money without ending up with games like that.  Also, Steam puts games on steep sales at will and does not ask permission from game developers most of the time.  So if 7DTD goes on sale for $5 it's not likely that TFP are the ones that initiated that sale.

[pApA^LeGBa]

It is a competitor in the survival and zombie aspect.  It has looting, eating, cooking, farming, building, vehicles and is set in a realistic world (obviously not talking graphics here). And additionally it has really high numbers of Z´s and things like sleeping, boredom, hygiene and depression.

 

It´s not a competitor for casual players. Those won´t have any fun with PZ.

 

Also there is a lot of competitors if you are looking for survival/building/crafting. Just because there is no zombies as enemies or a realistic world that doesn´t mean that people won´t switch to those games. People are versatile. This will become more obvious once there is no more new content each alpha. That´s why people come back and will play it again right now.

 

While there is no game exactly like 7D, there is a lot that are similar enough in many ways to be interesting for people. Just our group as an example, we play The Forest, Raft, Conan Exiles, Subsistence, Project Zomboid, Empyrion, Scum, Stranded Deep, NoMansSky,ARK and so on. And for each of those game you could say the same as you claim about 7D.

 

There will never be two games identical. Look at valorant. It was said to be the counterstrike killer and many people switched. Yet it ain´t the same as CS.

Edited June 2, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Matt115]

12 hours ago, Maharin said:

 

Keep in mind that Steam has a LOT of sales where you get bundles of game for cheap.  That is where a lot of people get the dead weight in their game inventory, in other words they "buy" games that they never intended to play but got as a bonus to get other games they did want to play.  It's pretty hard to be on Steam and spending money without ending up with games like that.  Also, Steam puts games on steep sales at will and does not ask permission from game developers most of the time.  So if 7DTD goes on sale for $5 it's not likely that TFP are the ones that initiated that sale.

Yes, but not always - quick example : i bought 5 indie games before my exams so didn't have time to play -- after some time i released i never played in one of this game - i just forget because i was busy. I read that people buying games during sales using logic that " i will play in this game when i will have time" but new game came and there is not enough time so some game are just "forgotten" by owners

[Matt115]

25 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

It is a competitor in the survival and zombie aspect.  It has looting, eating, cooking, farming, building, vehicles and is set in a realistic world (obviously not talking graphics here). And additionally it has really high numbers of Z´s and things like sleeping, boredom, hygiene and depression.

 

It´s not a competitor for casual players. Those won´t have any fun with PZ.

 

Also there is a lot of competitors if you are looking for survival/building/crafting. Just because there is no zombies as enemies or a realistic world that doesn´t mean that people won´t switch to those games. People are versatile. This will become more obvious once there is no more new content each alpha. That´s why people come back and will play it again right now.

 

While there is no game exactly like 7D, there is a lot that are similar enough in many ways to be interesting for people. Just our group as an example, we play The Forest, Raft, Conan Exiles, Subsistence, Project Zomboid, Empyrion, Scum, Stranded Deep, NoMansSky,ARK and so on. And for each of those game you could say the same as you claim about 7D.

 

There will never be two games identical. Look at valorant. It was said to be the counterstrike killer and many people switched. Yet it ain´t the same as CS.

"It´s not a competitor for casual players. Those won´t have any fun with PZ." that's why i'm not saying this is competetive game - i think if someone want to focus on building probably rather will choose 7dtd or MC that project zomboid. 

But CS and Valorant are both similiar enough that there is no point to buy both for some people. Or buy l4d2 and b4b.  The forest is difrrent because is story focused and "can be ended",  Conan, Scum and RUST are similiar enough to be consider as competetive. Well - i play with my friend in 7dtd , l4d2 , total war and factorio - only common thing  is coop. So if you think in category : which coop game choose - cod, 7dtd and total war are competetive

[pApA^LeGBa]

I don´t get why you can´t get two games that are similar? What´s the point here? Why can´t you have both games? You personally might not get those two games, but a lot of people will get both if they enjoyed one of them.

 

That´s the conclusion you are wrong about imo. People will buy similar games as well as games that are different but share a lot of things, like in our example with 7D the building/survival/crafting aspects. Your specific behaviour when buying games is quite rare tbh.

 

Valorant and CS are a good example for that. Go look on youtube. Many people play both.

 

And no, just coop alone is ofc not enough to be a competitor. Coop, survival, crafting, building is enough to be a competitor for a lot of people though.

Edited June 2, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

I don´t get why you can´t get two games that are similar? What´s the point here? Why can´t you have both games? You personally might not get those two games, but a lot of people will get both if they enjoyed one of them.

 

That´s the conclusion you are wrong about imo. People will buy similar games as well as games that are different but share a lot of things, like in our example with 7D the building/survival/crafting aspects. Your specific behaviour when buying games is quite rare tbh.

 

Valorant and CS are a good example for that. Go look on youtube. Many people play both.

 

And no, just coop alone is ofc not enough to be a competitor. Coop, survival, crafting, building is enough to be a competitor for a lot of people though.

Why? simple - money. For example  Cod is 70 $ now and that's a lot - 70$ =+- 300 zł (PLN) = typical polish income is 2363 zł. idk if game are expensive in your country but here yep 

[JCrook1028]

27 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Why? simple - money. For example  Cod is 70 $ now and that's a lot - 70$ =+- 300 zł (PLN) = typical polish income is 2363 zł.

That means nothing without context. Is that income per week? Month? Year? If you're saying a $70 AAA game is 1/8 of a week's pay then that's not abnormal here in the US either. If however you're saying a game is 1/8 of a month's or year's salary then yes, that's super expensive.

[Matt115]

11 minutes ago, JCrook1028 said:

That means nothing without context. Is that income per week? Month? Year? If you're saying a $70 AAA game is 1/8 of a week's pay then that's not abnormal here in the US either. If however you're saying a game is 1/8 of a month's or year's salary then yes, that's super expensive.

It's per month. So yep this is expensive so much. That's why prices here is a another factor. Well.... this depends on country.  That's why i will never buy conan - 540 for game with dlc? nope nope nope