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Multiplayer Sad State of Affairs


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4 minutes ago, knusper said:

Bug reports are LONG made.....they were made YEARS ago.

You mean complaints were made years ago?

 

If it's a replicable bug report, can you post a copy here? If a packet dump or trace is available, I'd love to have a look myself.

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11 hours ago, Obsessive Compulsive said:

.

That is the entire issue with their approach. They want to go back to multiplayer later and fix stuff they have been ignoring. It will be a sad affair when they realize the mess they have created which may not be readily fixed. GTA is a great example of this. They focus solely on solo player development. When crunch time came and release dates were coming due, they had to push back and delay over and over because the multiplayer was a mess. The amount of short cuts they took in the end is evident in the game play, server filters, bugs, lack of balance.

We are seeing the same thing here. If multiplayer is not a focus from the start, it should just be removed. You don't design a single player game and then just squeeze in multi. As it stands, the dedicated server is technically a client that does not load the visual process yet responds and operates very much the same. It is no wonder servers run like garbage. They are not truly dedicate servers nor is the game coded for it

Yes,they focus on solo player. Bugs are in boths SP and MP so... this is normal. Balance? well that's point of post apo - there is no balance

10 hours ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

Sigh I hate topics like this……

First the game isn’t designed nor ever sold to support 30/40/50 player plus servers.

Second even though it is in alpha don’t you think it’s getting kind of old? Do you really expect 50 people to play on the same damn server FOREVER?
Third when you get tired of playing the game or it has lost its fun nobody gives a crap about a long winded good bye. Nobody cares.

Fourth sounds like you had hundreds maybe thousands of hours of entertainment for what are $20 spent, that’s an INCREDIBLE value.

I usually don't agree with you but this time we are on this side

10 hours ago, knusper said:

It doesnt even run with 8 smooth right now......see thats the problem. The whole netcode is trash it worked in the past but little by little its getting worse. Why keep ppl saying the game never sold for Multiplayer ? do you really need to see the Kickstarter? it even mentioned PvP. But thats not the point. The point is the netcode is so bad that even 8 ppl cant have a hordenight on a dedicated server without the whole thing exploding. Even with 8 ppl chunks get corrupted regular ...server crashes etc pp. Yes these problems happen more often the more players you have but if you keep repeating " its made for 8 Players stop complaining" you miss the problem which is that the netcode of this game is so bad that if it doesnt change sooner or later there wont be any multiplayer at all. What bull do i have to read then? The game is made for CO OP only?

Nope, you can play both : coop and PVP. Nobody say if this have to be a lot of players. If there will be even 1vs1 still it's PVP. So they added PVP - you can choose this menu. They don't promise it will PVP focused. small example - if you were 10 yo kid and your parents promise you new shoes and you get 1 dollar sneakers but you expect 100 dollars new balance it's don't mean your parents lie. Just it mean your expectation were too high 

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11 hours ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

Sigh I hate topics like this……

First the game isn’t designed nor ever sold to support 30/40/50 player plus servers.

Second even though it is in alpha don’t you think it’s getting kind of old? Do you really expect 50 people to play on the same damn server FOREVER?
Third when you get tired of playing the game or it has lost its fun nobody gives a crap about a long winded good bye. Nobody cares.

Fourth sounds like you had hundreds maybe thousands of hours of entertainment for what are $20 spent, that’s an INCREDIBLE value.

Sigh I hate replies like this.

Setting your server back to a previous alpha means your server is now pretty much unseen by the majority and the only way others can discover it is by word of mouth or advertising. Then, you have to expect these others players to set their own game to a previous alpha, which is 2 or 3 clicks too many for your average person before they give up or get too confused.

Also, you're projecting on whether or not a big population will stick around. They have. They would continue to. For the better half of a year, and at least two or so months of this year, I had my server at 30-40 people, much of them familiar and regular faces. These are the people who keep a game thriving long term, not someone who buys the game, plays singleplayer or coop until either day 7-50, then calls it quits.

We know for a fact the game was capable of holding 50 people and staying stable not too long ago, we didnt complain when it got cut down to 40.. but were showing concern that the game suddenly cant even handle more than say, 15. It's a downgrade and loss in overall performance no matter what context.

If I had a penny for everyone who basically said "if you dont like it dont play it".. such a useless argument.

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4 minutes ago, Howlune said:

Sigh I hate replies like this.

Setting your server back to a previous alpha means your server is now pretty much unseen by the majority and the only way others can discover it is by word of mouth or advertising. Then, you have to expect these others players to set their own game to a previous alpha, which is 2 or 3 clicks too many for your average person before they give up or get too confused.

Also, you're projecting on whether or not a big population will stick around. They have. They would continue to. For the better half of a year, and at least two or so months of this year, I had my server at 30-40 people, much of them familiar and regular faces. These are the people who keep a game thriving long term, not someone who buys the game, plays singleplayer or coop until either day 7-50, then calls it quits.

We know for a fact the game was capable of holding 50 people and staying stable not too long ago, we didnt complain when it got cut down to 40.. but were showing concern that the game suddenly cant even handle more than say, 15. It's a downgrade and loss in overall performance no matter what context.

If I had a penny for everyone who basically said "if you dont like it dont play it".. such a useless argument.

If the offical max number is 8 more people  is your choice and it's no TFP problem. So ofc you can play in more that 8 people but on your own risk

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2 hours ago, Matt115 said:

If the offical max number is 8 more people  is your choice and it's no TFP problem. So ofc you can play in more that 8 people but on your own risk

It doesnt run with 8 either just how many times it needs to be said? Dedicated servers are a mess right now and they were for a long time .....corrupted chunks.....Player profiles getting reset......sleeping bag switching....other players claims showing those bugs have all NOTHING to do with max number 8 ppl...not even mentioning NON game breaking bugs like turrets not shooting etc pp

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1 hour ago, knusper said:

It doesnt run with 8 either just how many times it needs to be said? Dedicated servers are a mess right now and they were for a long time .....corrupted chunks.....Player profiles getting reset......sleeping bag switching....other players claims showing those bugs have all NOTHING to do with max number 8 ppl...not even mentioning NON game breaking bugs like turrets not shooting etc pp

Putting aside 20.4 we need to define “a mess”, as I said earlier my server works fine with 5 player. Just got off about 30 minutes ago.

 

Fine to me is the game runs with minimal stutter and rare instances where a player drops for whatever reason. I expect to frequently see zombies, I expect a large world 10k minimum, I expect good sized hordes, I expect to have fun playing.

I do not expect 60+ fps, I do not expect any game to be bug or trouble free, I do not expect (however I’d love to have it) hundreds of zombies on the screen at once.

Maybe you simply have higher expectations than I do and that’s okay. Look for something else to play if 7D2D isn’t meeting your expectations. There are plenty of other things to do.

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Posted (edited)

Whether the feedback is given in official bug reports or critical rants here is largely immaterial. The bugs are all already known issues. Posting more of either (reports or rants) isn't going to make it more or less known. The devs have their priorities and that is all there is to it.

 

We could take bets on whether it will be the PvP crowd or the console crowd that will get what they want out of TFP first...

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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2 minutes ago, Roland said:

Whether the feedback is given in official bug reports or critical rants here is largely immaterial. The bugs are all already known issues. Posting more of either (reports or rants) isn't going to make it more or less known. The devs have their priorities and that is all there is to it.

 

We could take bets on whether it will be the PvP crowd or the console crowd that will get what they want out of TFP first...

Gotta be honest, I am slightly concerned about 7D2D getting infected with Consolitis.

 

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Consolitis

 

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1 minute ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

Fine to me is the game runs with minimal stutter and rare instances where a player drops for whatever reason. I expect to frequently see zombies, I expect a large world 10k minimum, I expect good sized hordes, I expect to have fun playing.

I do not expect 60+ fps, I do not expect any game to be bug or trouble free, I do not expect (however I’d love to have it) hundreds of zombies on the screen at once.

Maybe you simply have higher expectations than I do and that’s okay. Look for something else to play if 7D2D isn’t meeting your expectations. There are plenty of other things to do.

 

 

I think this may be an important point but not exactly regarding expectations. It could be that PvP gameplay demands higher standards than PvE. If you are trying to take aim at another human player, that is a lot different than aiming at zombies and probably is much more adversely affected by a poor frame rate or lost packets and imbalances in connectivity. Who cares about look around under ground for PvE but with PvP that is game breaking. Even dupe cheats are much more significant when you are competing vs cooperating. 

 

So someone playing with 5 players cooperatively might be having a super fun experience while 5 players who are competing against each other and trying to locate hidden bases and get ahead in the arms race and defensive items faster might find things much more frustrating and unplayable because they can't hit the other player due to net performance, people can look around underground and see hidden bases, and figure out dupe cheats that will help them rocket up the progression ladder faster than the other players. Bugs like these can sit around almost unnoticed or at least ignored by the solo and co-op players for years.

 

TFP is aware of these bugs but I think they are content to leave things as "good enough" for solo and PvE players for the time being. I know they aren't trying to compete with other more dedicated PvP offerings out there.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

Look for something else to play if 7D2D isn’t meeting your expectations. There are plenty of other things to do.

why? I want this game to be better.....you see what you did there taking my critique and tell me to f off into the sunshine when I dont like it. I repeat again critique doesnt mean i dont like the game. I am happy your server works doesmt mean that I am wrong. The bugs I mentioned are well documented and in the game for years.

Again jsut so it is clear...we all love the game. We just want the foundation to be better .

13 minutes ago, Roland said:

So someone playing with 5 players cooperatively might be having a super fun experience while 5 players who are competing against each other and trying to locate hidden bases and get ahead in the arms race and defensive items faster might find things much more frustrating and unplayable because they can't hit the other player due to net performance, people can look around underground and see hidden bases, and figure out dupe cheats that will help them rocket up the progression ladder faster than the other players. Bugs like these can sit around almost unnoticed or at least ignored by the solo and co-op players for years.

Now this i can sign 110%!!

Edited by knusper (see edit history)
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In my experience running multiplayer for many years, is that small group PvE works fine, small "fun" local PvP shoot-outs work alright, but going beyond 8 players PvE (not even talking about PvP), or even PvP with players spread around the world makes things a challenge to say the least!

 

However while I'd love to have a perfect game on both PvE and PvP, I'd rather have a 2x as good a game in PvE that had NO PvP at all, rather than bump up the PvP capabilities to be on parity with how PvE right now. For anyone who plays "dedicated pvp" games, be it fortnite or Battlefield or CoD or whatever flavour one might prefer, latency, networking capability and so on are huge deals. I've yet to see any Open World Sandbox Building Crafting game do great PvP for that reason, even though certainly some can be better, and some can be worse.

 

Still, even with what we have now some fun occasional player killing shooting or melee fights happen (especially during mischief maker hunger games), and it works well enough for a laugh, but I can appreciate PvP servers having a challenge to create fun gameplay. But, I'd still prefer time was spent on the PvE experience over PvP experience nonetheless.

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7 hours ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

Gotta be honest, I am slightly concerned about 7D2D getting infected with Consolitis.

 

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Consolitis

 

I don't see this as being an issue. The developer isn't a console dev. They plan to finish the PC game first, and then it will be ported to the consoles. Also note that the current consoles do not have most of the limitations that that statement is based on. 

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42 minutes ago, SylenThunder said:

I don't see this as being an issue. The developer isn't a console dev. They plan to finish the PC game first, and then it will be ported to the consoles. Also note that the current consoles do not have most of the limitations that that statement is based on. 

Fair enough, I was making the big assumption it would be cross platform play.

I do say current consoles are different an obvious example is console still can’t use mice & keyboard controls to my knowledge which could be wrong.

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On 5/2/2022 at 7:15 AM, Matt115 said:

And moders create in l4d2 8VS8 mods too. well 7dtd is more about playing with few friends that play with more number players. They decided to focus on PVE not on PVP. so that's why number of 8 is perfects - max number of npc is 64 = max number of players 8 so 64:8=8 npc per player. You say it could be 30?  no. 64:32 = 2 npc per player = small number right? So too kep high number of zombie (main enemy) you have to reduce max number of players = 8 players is good enough

That's not how it works.  In a larger Multiplayer server some people are building, some people are mining, some people are looting, so generally you still the same number of zombies when you are out.

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9 hours ago, knusper said:

It doesnt run with 8 either just how many times it needs to be said? Dedicated servers are a mess right now and they were for a long time .....corrupted chunks.....Player profiles getting reset......sleeping bag switching....other players claims showing those bugs have all NOTHING to do with max number 8 ppl...not even mentioning NON game breaking bugs like turrets not shooting etc pp

Yep, even SP have some bugs - just wait for update some time because 7dtd game pass made mess so they need to talk with Microsoft

8 hours ago, Roland said:

Whether the feedback is given in official bug reports or critical rants here is largely immaterial. The bugs are all already known issues. Posting more of either (reports or rants) isn't going to make it more or less known. The devs have their priorities and that is all there is to it.

 

We could take bets on whether it will be the PvP crowd or the console crowd that will get what they want out of TFP first...

damn i prefere to say think but in diffrent way

8 hours ago, Roland said:

 

 

I think this may be an important point but not exactly regarding expectations. It could be that PvP gameplay demands higher standards than PvE. If you are trying to take aim at another human player, that is a lot different than aiming at zombies and probably is much more adversely affected by a poor frame rate or lost packets and imbalances in connectivity. Who cares about look around under ground for PvE but with PvP that is game breaking. Even dupe cheats are much more significant when you are competing vs cooperating. 

 

So someone playing with 5 players cooperatively might be having a super fun experience while 5 players who are competing against each other and trying to locate hidden bases and get ahead in the arms race and defensive items faster might find things much more frustrating and unplayable because they can't hit the other player due to net performance, people can look around underground and see hidden bases, and figure out dupe cheats that will help them rocket up the progression ladder faster than the other players. Bugs like these can sit around almost unnoticed or at least ignored by the solo and co-op players for years.

 

TFP is aware of these bugs but I think they are content to leave things as "good enough" for solo and PvE players for the time being. I know they aren't trying to compete with other more dedicated PvP offerings out there.

Honestly i can't agree with you here, This is not about 7dtd but about just PVP and PVE in cod if you loose match you will lose 10 minutes.  but if you lost packets during easter egg quest in zombie you will loose even month of playing (perksaholic). In 7dtd well.... hm zombie like wighht making much less mistakes that humans so depending on stage npc can be bigger treat

 

15 minutes ago, RyanX said:

That's not how it works.  In a larger Multiplayer server some people are building, some people are mining, some people are looting, so generally you still the same number of zombies when you are out.

If one part of machine don't work good it's good enough to say that machine is broken. So if they use logic that 8 players because = 64:8 = 8 npc per player is enough this mean they will not increase number of players. Because they would have to change diffrent things too

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9 hours ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

Fair enough, I was making the big assumption it would be cross platform play.

I do say current consoles are different an obvious example is console still can’t use mice & keyboard controls to my knowledge which could be wrong.

Controller support is already in the PC version. It is planned for it to be cross-play on all the platforms, but there aren't any considerations for the console being taken that I am aware of. Well, outside of the possibility of the @%$#ed-up server list changes being to meet some shady Microshaft criteria for being in their store. That is literally the only reason I can think of that a change that large was rolled out so suddenly without more testing.

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1 minute ago, SylenThunder said:

Controller support is already in the PC version. It is planned for it to be cross-play on all the platforms, but there aren't any considerations for the console being taken that I am aware of. Well, outside of the possibility of the @%$#ed-up server list changes being to meet some shady Microshaft criteria for being in their store. That is literally the only reason I can think of that a change that large was rolled out so suddenly without more testing.

Yep, it was forced by MS.... but we don't change past so everything it will now happens is a little bit... pointeless

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1 hour ago, SylenThunder said:

Controller support is already in the PC version. It is planned for it to be cross-play on all the platforms, but there aren't any considerations for the console being taken that I am aware of. Well, outside of the possibility of the @%$#ed-up server list changes being to meet some shady Microshaft criteria for being in their store. That is literally the only reason I can think of that a change that large was rolled out so suddenly without more testing.

 

One positive aspect of cross platform play is that TFP will be forced to optimize the game to the point that it is able to be played on the consoles. The level of optimization they will need to do in order to come in under the console limitations is most likely more than they would have done to make the game playable for just the PC. 

 

On the downside, I blame the loss of ziplines on the consoles, damn them...

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14 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

One positive aspect of cross platform play is that TFP will be forced to optimize the game to the point that it is able to be played on the consoles. The level of optimization they will need to do in order to come in under the console limitations is most likely more than they would have done to make the game playable for just the PC. 

 

On the downside, I blame the loss of ziplines on the consoles, damn them...

Em "The level of optimization they will need to do in order to come in under the console limitations"? just make like cod season 2 and it will be fine :) the we will not lose ziplines

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1 hour ago, SylenThunder said:

Controller support is already in the PC version. It is planned for it to be cross-play on all the platforms, but there aren't any considerations for the console being taken that I am aware of. Well, outside of the possibility of the @%$#ed-up server list changes being to meet some shady Microshaft criteria for being in their store. That is literally the only reason I can think of that a change that large was rolled out so suddenly without more testing.

Controller is just a quick example as in Will the controller have auto assist aim, what will happen to mouse & keyboard function. There are others things too like consoles need a 10 foot UI, how well does that scale down to an 18 inch UI and so on. How about video drivers? Do they focus on console optimization or PC or will both be possible with staffing.

I am just a little concerned about consolization 

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Telli

6 hours ago, Roland said:

 

One positive aspect of cross platform play is that TFP will be forced to optimize the game to the point that it is able to be played on the consoles. The level of optimization they will need to do in order to come in under the console limitations is most likely more than they would have done to make the game playable for just the PC. 

 

On the downside, I blame the loss of ziplines on the consoles, damn them...

Telling you now, I don't think anyone i've come to know during the course of my server hosting and playing cares about graphics to the extent that this "consolization" is a threat. The fact they will have to optimize for consoles and PC players inevitably gaining from it does at least give me some hope. Now, the concern goes back to what kind of optimization. Can only pray some netcode improvements push their way into that.
As for right this moment, I don't think theres any space in which players used to more populated servers can really go and get an experience they've been used to. It's been thoroughly neutered by this latest patch. People can mention "oh just revert to previous alphas!" but it shouldn't take much thought at all to see why it doesn't work this way, and that it'll lead to new players never even seeing said server.

I guess my biggest wonder at this point, with how busy the pimps are and how uncertain any future with larger scale multiplayer is, is finding how the modding community can perhaps remove features or ways the game is slowed down so much in more populated multiplayer servers. Whether we can be given the freedom to stop the game from sending out certain netpackages, etc serverside. I think if we were given the choice between a lot of game features or relatively decent multiplayer performance. wed likely pick the second option.

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23 minutes ago, Howlune said:

Telli

Telling you now, I don't think anyone i've come to know during the course of my server hosting and playing cares about graphics to the extent that this "consolization" is a threat. The fact they will have to optimize for consoles and PC players inevitably gaining from it does at least give me some hope. Now, the concern goes back to what kind of optimization. Can only pray some netcode improvements push their way into that.
As for right this moment, I don't think theres any space in which players used to more populated servers can really go and get an experience they've been used to. It's been thoroughly neutered by this latest patch. People can mention "oh just revert to previous alphas!" but it shouldn't take much thought at all to see why it doesn't work this way, and that it'll lead to new players never even seeing said server.

I guess my biggest wonder at this point, with how busy the pimps are and how uncertain any future with larger scale multiplayer is, is finding how the modding community can perhaps remove features or ways the game is slowed down so much in more populated multiplayer servers. Whether we can be given the freedom to stop the game from sending out certain netpackages, etc serverside. I think if we were given the choice between a lot of game features or relatively decent multiplayer performance. wed likely pick the second option.

 

Okay, but come on... you MUST realize that the purpose of the latest patch was not to neuter the larger populated servers. It may have happened but it wasn't the intended outcome and with the QA guys actively asking for server owners who are having issues to please post their logs and descriptions of their problems, they are obviously intent upon stabilizing things with the next patch.

 

You can't look at setbacks and bugs associated with first release alpha features as intentional warfare against you personally from the developers. They aren't against people who push the limits of the officially supported number of players. The changes that most recently came are the first go and will bear some polishing and refining. These changes were things that had to be done under time constraints in order to meet the deadline of when Microsoft wanted to launch 7 Days on Game Pass.

 

People who advise you to go back to the previous patch aren't telling you to do that permanently because this is the new normal. They are telling you to do it as a temporary measure until the problems are fixed. They may not get fixed to the level you want them, true, but the issues caused by the 20.4 patch are definitely side effects that the devs didn't intend and that they want to get sorted-- hopefully in a 20.5 patch.

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8 hours ago, Howlune said:

 

I guess my biggest wonder at this point, with how busy the pimps are and how uncertain any future with larger scale multiplayer is, is finding how the modding community can perhaps remove features or ways the game is slowed down so much in more populated multiplayer servers. Whether we can be given the freedom to stop the game from sending out certain netpackages, etc serverside. I think if we were given the choice between a lot of game features or relatively decent multiplayer performance. wed likely pick the second option.

Well this MS not TFP fault this time 

7 hours ago, Roland said:

These changes were things that had to be done under time constraints in order to meet the deadline of when Microsoft wanted to launch 7 Days on Game Pass.

 

It was deal with devil - so i was logical it will be bad. But - there is no option to change  past... so whatever what will happens now - is just pointless 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Okay, but come on... you MUST realize that the purpose of the latest patch was not to neuter the larger populated servers. It may have happened but it wasn't the intended outcome and with the QA guys actively asking for server owners who are having issues to please post their logs and descriptions of their problems, they are obviously intent upon stabilizing things with the next patch.

 

You can't look at setbacks and bugs associated with first release alpha features as intentional warfare against you personally from the developers. They aren't against people who push the limits of the officially supported number of players. The changes that most recently came are the first go and will bear some polishing and refining. These changes were things that had to be done under time constraints in order to meet the deadline of when Microsoft wanted to launch 7 Days on Game Pass.

 

People who advise you to go back to the previous patch aren't telling you to do that permanently because this is the new normal. They are telling you to do it as a temporary measure until the problems are fixed. They may not get fixed to the level you want them, true, but the issues caused by the 20.4 patch are definitely side effects that the devs didn't intend and that they want to get sorted-- hopefully in a 20.5 patch.

I must have had some poor choices in words. Im definitely aware the devs arent "out to get me". Obviously if something makes the game less playable for even just certain people it's not ideal. I'm aware bug reports are a large part of getting issues fixed, but it's not always easy to know what has happened when there are many stealth changes in patches that were unaware of. I get the need for confidentiality sometimes, but sometimes it's easier to know if theres an issue with, say, networking if we saw significant changes in networking in the patch (Just an example, not actual). In the case of larger servers for another example, it's hard to troubleshoot when the issues only arise at a certain population. Its kind of hard to gather enough people just to test and troubleshoot instead of actually play the game normally.

Edited by Howlune
More examples. (see edit history)
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