Living of the Land its a poor gamble

[Balthazod]

Well you changed the crop system so now when you harvest you need a new seed for the next crop. Seed cost 5 of the type of crop you wish to produce the yield is 4 per harvest  so not accounting for luck of getting and extra one with living of the land level 2 or the 50% chance of getting your seed back it will cost you more to farm then you sow.  So farming is a game of chance if you are lucky and harvest 5 you loose nothing but effort and time if you are really lucky and this is the only way to make a profit is the 50% chance of getting your seed back.  This makes farming not sustainable and and shows what little thought you put into the game. 

 

Clearly you the Devs have not put much thought into this and if they wanted to make it so that you have to replant after every harvest they should have made the seeds cheaper to create personally its a tedious task I would not want to do.

 

After watching the Devs on twitch I realized that they have no idea how to play the game or tie there own shoe laces.  Try not to lick the windows on the way home dear Devs.

[Urban Blackbear]

Have you tried putting points into LotL before you accuse anyone of licking windows?

[Sjustus548]

So you expect farming to be worthwhile and amazing without having to put any points into it?  Maybe you should take a second look at who is really licking said windows.  Of course farming would be subpar without putting any points into it.  In my opinion farming without points basically just amounts to planting whatever seeds you happen to loot and being happy with the yield you get.  If you want to start planting specific crops you want then you need to invest some points into LotL.  Until that time just be happy with what you get.

[Boidster]

59 minutes ago, Balthazod said:

Well you changed the crop system so now when you harvest you need a new seed for the next crop. Seed cost 5 of the type of crop you wish to produce the yield is 4 per harvest  so not accounting for ... the 50% chance of getting your seed back it will cost you more to farm then you sow. 

 

 

59 minutes ago, Balthazod said:

Try not to lick the windows on the way home

 

Try not to **** up any basic math on the way through the parking lot!

[Balthazod]

Basic maths doh! seed cost 5 harvest is 4  4-5 is urm -1 that's at level 2 living of the land, you have a chance to get one extra seed, so the seed is 5 and the harvest is 5, not a the best way to invest your time. So as I said you are depending on the 50% chance to get your seed back and then you get a harvest of 4 or 5 but the idea is to eat the harvest not continually reinvest it. Its a very time consuming for it to be affective you need to plant a lot as the crops have a 50% fail rating with attrition if you only get 4 seeds back when it  fails to propagate a seed.  For it to works as a sustainable vegetable garden you need twice as much as previous gardens and need to spend much more time replanting and crafting seeds. 

 

please wipe the windows before licking and after we do have a pandemic

7 hours ago, Sjustus548 said:

So you expect farming to be worthwhile and amazing without having to put any points into it?  Maybe you should take a second look at who is really licking said windows.  Of course farming would be subpar without putting any points into it.  In my opinion farming without points basically just amounts to planting whatever seeds you happen to loot and being happy with the yield you get.  If you want to start planting specific crops you want then you need to invest some points into LotL.  Until that time just be happy with what you get.

You must be a window licker for me to make seeds I have to have points in LOTL pay attention Sherlock.

[meganoth]

11 hours ago, Balthazod said:

Basic maths doh! seed cost 5 harvest is 4  4-5 is urm -1 that's at level 2 living of the land, you have a chance to get one extra seed, so the seed is 5 and the harvest is 5, not a the best way to invest your time. So as I said you are depending on the 50% chance to get your seed back and then you get a harvest of 4 or 5 but the idea is to eat the harvest not continually reinvest it. Its a very time consuming for it to be affective you need to plant a lot as the crops have a 50% fail rating with attrition if you only get 4 seeds back when it  fails to propagate a seed.  For it to works as a sustainable vegetable garden you need twice as much as previous gardens and need to spend much more time replanting and crafting seeds. 

 

please wipe the windows before licking and after we do have a pandemic

You must be a window licker for me to make seeds I have to have points in LOTL pay attention Sherlock.

 

Everyone please drop the insults, they get old.

 

If I may explain the math, 50% harvest is random but when you plant and replant lots and lots of seeds you are almost sure to get those 50% on average. So you can't just dismiss it. What you have been doing was a worst case calculation. And what you usually get playing the game is the average case.

 

For a simple calculation just assume you have LotL 1 and two seeds and the first seed always gets a seed, the second one never gets a seed. That gets you 50% return rate as well and is easy to calculate. Since you have to craft one seed to get back at 2 seeds planting you have 4+4 -5 = 3 crops left. Since we calculated 2 seeds, the average return for one seed is half, 1.5 crops.

 

That means on average one seed will produce 1.5 crops to use as you wish every harvest (sometimes less, sometimes more because of RNG). In A19 LotL 1 gave back 2 crops per harvest, without RNG.

 

I would say that 2 down to 1.5 isn't that much of a difference.

 

 

[Darklegend222]

To whomever actually believes that you can't start a massive farm on 60 minute days within meaningful time, these were taken just now, right before our farmer got back to base, and right after I cooked all our food. The only bottleneck is mushrooms since we're slacking, we have so much food so do we REALLY need that spaghetti??

[PoppaTot]

7 minutes ago, Darklegend222 said:

To whomever actually believes that you can't start a massive farm on 60 minute days within meaningful time, these were taken just now, right before our farmer got back to base, and right after I cooked all our food. The only bottleneck is mushrooms since we're slacking, we have so much food so do we REALLY need that spaghetti??

Our server farmer doesn't like the nerf, but she's still been able to make all the good foods and keep 2 vending machines stocked full with food and drinks, not to mention the tons of back up she has to keep stocking them.  Mostly making meat stew, meat and potatoes, chowder.  I buy her out every time she has spaghetti and some fish recipe. (can't remember the name lol)

[Darklegend222]

1 minute ago, PoppaTot said:

Our server farmer doesn't like the nerf, but she's still been able to make all the good foods and keep 2 vending machines stocked full with food and drinks, not to mention the tons of back up she has to keep stocking them.  Mostly making meat stew, meat and potatoes, chowder.  I buy her out every time she has spaghetti and some fish recipe. (can't remember the name lol)

Which is exactly why there was a nerf in the first place. I think the devs need to go further with it if they plan on it having a meaningful impact.

[PoppaTot]

2 minutes ago, Darklegend222 said:

Which is exactly why there was a nerf in the first place. I think the devs need to go further with it if they plan on it having a meaningful impact.

In my SP world I have just been living off the food crates, buying all the corn, eggs, and potatoes I can, and making meat stews.  I don't even farm and still have plenty of food lol

[Roland]

 

Me about 5 weeks ago needing @meganoth to help me grok the new farming. It isn't intuitive even if the math works out. But it is properly thought out and it works. It also isn't simple to succeed at in the very early days when you aren't perked up so it is easy to fail and then just assume it was poorly thought out.

 

One of these days the OP will figure it out and then the insults about intellect will feel super ironic. I didn't get it at first but I was willing to listen and learn and change my mind.

Edited January 14, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[SylenThunder]

Just a note, this thread is basically a duplicate of this one...

Could we please stop with starting a new thread on a subject that already exists?

 

[Brian9824]

On 1/13/2022 at 2:08 PM, Balthazod said:

Well you changed the crop system so now when you harvest you need a new seed for the next crop. Seed cost 5 of the type of crop you wish to produce the yield is 4 per harvest  so not accounting for luck of getting and extra one with living of the land level 2 or the 50% chance of getting your seed back it will cost you more to farm then you sow.  So farming is a game of chance if you are lucky and harvest 5 you loose nothing but effort and time if you are really lucky and this is the only way to make a profit is the 50% chance of getting your seed back.  This makes farming not sustainable and and shows what little thought you put into the game. 

 

Clearly you the Devs have not put much thought into this and if they wanted to make it so that you have to replant after every harvest they should have made the seeds cheaper to create personally its a tedious task I would not want to do.

 

After watching the Devs on twitch I realized that they have no idea how to play the game or tie there own shoe laces.  Try not to lick the windows on the way home dear Devs.

Your math is bad.  Red Eagle did it already on the steam forums

Perk level 0
2 fruit/veg + 50% chance of seed
Perk Level 1
4 fruit/veg + 50% chance of seed
Perk Level 2
4 fruit/veg + 50% chance of seed + 50% chance of additional fruit
Perk Level 3
6 fruit/veg + 50% chance of seed + 50% chance of additional fruit


So with a start of 50 fruit that convert to 10 seeds.:
WORST CASE:
Perk Level 0
20 Fruit + 0 seeds (worth 0fruit)+ 0 fruit = Loss 30 Fruit
Perk Level 1
40 Fruit + 0 seeds (worth 0fruit) + 0 fruit = Loss 10 Fruit
Perk Level 2
40 Fruit + 0 seeds (worth 0fruit) + 0 fruit = Loss 10 Fruit
Perk Level 3
60 Fruit + 0 seeds (worth 0fruit) + 0 fruit = Profit 10Fruit

AVERAGE CASE:
Perk Level 0
20 Fruit + 5 seeds (worth 25 fruit) + 0 fruit = Loss 5 Fruit
Perk Level 1
40 Fruit + 5 seeds (worth 25 fruit) + 0 fruit = Profit 15 Fruit
Perk Level 2
40 Fruit + 5 seeds (worth 25 fruit) + 5 fruit = Profit 20 Fruit
Perk Level 3
60 Fruit + 5 seeds (worth 25 fruit) + 5 fruit = Profit 40 Fruit

BEST CASE:
Perk Level 0
20 Fruit + 10 seeds (worth 50 fruit) + 0 fruit = Profit 20 Fruit
Perk Level 1
40 Fruit + 10 seeds (worth 50 fruit) + 0 fruit = Profit 40 Fruit
Perk Level 2
40 Fruit + 10 seeds (worth 50 fruit) + 10 fruit = Profit 50 Fruit
Perk Level 3
60 Fruit + 10 seeds (worth 50 fruit) + 10 fruit = Profit 70 Fruit

Perk level 1, On average, Will give you a profit while still being able to replant.  So on average with no points you won't profit off farming, but can still turn seeds into food.  With 1 point on average over time you profit, and that ratio increases until tier 3 guarantees every harvest is a profit.  

 

[Sjustus548]

On 1/13/2022 at 6:39 PM, Balthazod said:

 

You must be a window licker for me to make seeds I have to have points in LOTL pay attention Sherlock.

Hey just a heads up in case you weren't aware, which it seems like you might not be, you can get seeds from looting.  Looting the farms has a great chance to give you seeds or most buildings for that matter.  We've gotten quite a few random seeds here and there that work great in a beginner farm.  Of course we aren't getting the maximum yield as if we put points into it but it's more than we would have gotten if we didn't plant them at all.  Also while looting you can pick up the recipes that teach you how to craft the seeds.  Another bonus of getting out there and trying things.  Give it a try and I'm sure you will be pleasantly surprised at the outcome.

Edited January 15, 2022 by Sjustus548 (see edit history)

[Flycatcher]

9 hours ago, Darklegend222 said:

Which is exactly why there was a nerf in the first place. I think the devs need to go further with it if they plan on it having a meaningful impact.

Would go with spoiling, fridge to slow the rate down a bit.

[PoloPoPo]

Oh noez, not another topic about farming.

 

As I see it:

Either you don't spend skill points on Lotl but still plant and harvest every seed you find when looting. As seed drop rate looks higher than in A19 you get quite a nice amount of harvested fruits that allow for cooking some big meals from time to time. But certainly this isn't your only food ressource, you still rely on food from looting or traders or boiled meat most of the other time. You won't be able to get a self-sustaining farm with unlimited crops like that and it does not make sense to convert your few crops into seeds again.

 

Or you want to be a real farmer and as such you have to spend skill points on Lotl. Therefore you convert your crops into seeds until your farm has a huge size and you never have to worry about food anymore.

 

Compare it with junk turrets:

Without skill points in robotics a casual turret is a bit of help here and there but you cannot rely heavily on it. If you want to unleash the full firepower you have to spend skill points on them and finally get to a level where dual junk turret maxed out shred everything.

[Ghostlight]

On 1/13/2022 at 7:16 PM, Urban Blackbear said:

Have you tried putting points into LotL before you accuse anyone of licking windows?

 

I have. It's garbage. Do not waste points on this skill. Farming is dead in A20. Plant any seeds you find and that's it.

[BFT2020]

Farming now requires actual effort and you have a chance for failure.

 

I typically start farming once I got LoTL at perk 2 and then start making a sustainable farm at LoTL 3.

[Brian9824]

3 hours ago, Ghostlight said:

 

I have. It's garbage. Do not waste points on this skill. Farming is dead in A20. Plant any seeds you find and that's it.

My boxes of food would disagree, had to make another box for finished food because I had too many stacks of raw food.  Not even harvesting my crops anymore as i have such a surplus

[PoppaTot]

20 minutes ago, Brian9824 said:

My boxes of food would disagree, had to make another box for finished food because I had too many stacks of raw food.  Not even harvesting my crops anymore as i have such a surplus

Was talking to my in-server farmer about this last night.  She said that she also has a surplus of raw food as well, and this after stocking two vending machines full of food and drinks.

Edited January 15, 2022 by PoppaTot
missed thet word "has" (see edit history)

[Balthazod]

My math is perfect, logic is bad where do you start with 50 fruit you have one or two seeds from loot if your lucky if seeds are plentiful its not a problem but they are not.  Perk level 1 you can not make seeds so you have to be level 2 to even attempt a veg garden and with RNG the results can be very bad, say you looted 1 seed and only get 4 product from your harvest  you loose hence the tile LOTL gamble.  With lots of seeds and and time it works but its tedious and time consuming.

 

18 hours ago, Darklegend222 said:

A To whomever actually believes that you can't start a massive farm on 60 minute days within meaningful time, these were taken just now, right before our farmer got back to base, and right after I cooked all our food. The only bottleneck is mushrooms since we're slacking, we have so much food so do we REALLY need that spaghetti??

I am curious what day your game is on and how many players you have?  My post is really about solo or 2 player games, I have no doubt that farming will work as I said it requires building the plot size up to make up for the 50% fail It also take a lot more time where as you have a dedicated farmer its not a problem.

12 hours ago, Brian9824 said:

Your math is bad.  Red Eagle did it already on the steam forums

Perk level 0
2 fruit/veg + 50% chance of seed
Perk Level 1
4 fruit/veg + 50% chance of seed
Perk Level 2
4 fruit/veg + 50% chance of seed + 50% chance of additional fruit
Perk Level 3
6 fruit/veg + 50% chance of seed + 50% chance of additional fruit


So with a start of 50 fruit that convert to 10 seeds.:
WORST CASE:
Perk Level 0
20 Fruit + 0 seeds (worth 0fruit)+ 0 fruit = Loss 30 Fruit
Perk Level 1
40 Fruit + 0 seeds (worth 0fruit) + 0 fruit = Loss 10 Fruit
Perk Level 2
40 Fruit + 0 seeds (worth 0fruit) + 0 fruit = Loss 10 Fruit
Perk Level 3
60 Fruit + 0 seeds (worth 0fruit) + 0 fruit = Profit 10Fruit

AVERAGE CASE:
Perk Level 0
20 Fruit + 5 seeds (worth 25 fruit) + 0 fruit = Loss 5 Fruit
Perk Level 1
40 Fruit + 5 seeds (worth 25 fruit) + 0 fruit = Profit 15 Fruit
Perk Level 2
40 Fruit + 5 seeds (worth 25 fruit) + 5 fruit = Profit 20 Fruit
Perk Level 3
60 Fruit + 5 seeds (worth 25 fruit) + 5 fruit = Profit 40 Fruit

BEST CASE:
Perk Level 0
20 Fruit + 10 seeds (worth 50 fruit) + 0 fruit = Profit 20 Fruit
Perk Level 1
40 Fruit + 10 seeds (worth 50 fruit) + 0 fruit = Profit 40 Fruit
Perk Level 2
40 Fruit + 10 seeds (worth 50 fruit) + 10 fruit = Profit 50 Fruit
Perk Level 3
60 Fruit + 10 seeds (worth 50 fruit) + 10 fruit = Profit 70 Fruit

Perk level 1, On average, Will give you a profit while still being able to replant.  So on average with no points you won't profit off farming, but can still turn seeds into food.  With 1 point on average over time you profit, and that ratio increases until tier 3 guarantees every harvest is a profit.  

Edited January 15, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[meganoth]

50 minutes ago, Balthazod said:

My math is perfect, logic is bad where do you start with 50 fruit you have one or two seeds from loot if your lucky if seeds are plentiful its not a problem but they are not. 

 

From where did I get all those seeds in my SP game with LotL1 then? 1 or 2 seeds? We live in different realities

 

50 minutes ago, Balthazod said:

Perk level 1 you can not make seeds so you have to be level 2 to even attempt a veg garden and with RNG the results can be very bad, say you looted 1 seed and only get 4 product from your harvest  you loose hence the tile LOTL gamble.  With lots of seeds and and time it works but its tedious and time consuming.

 

 

This is exactly the same with vehicle schematics or cooking recipes. You either bet on looting to eventually deliver you those recipes or you play it safe and take more points in the perk to get the recipes automatically. This is a choice and I can assure you that looting works too. In both my SP and my MP game I have found all the important seed recipes and more than enough seeds to have a big farm going.

 

Did it take more time than if I had spent that perk point? Yes, sure, I didn't expect any different.

 

 

 

[canadianbluebeer]

I've been doing 20 of ea of the main crops (corn, tater, shrooms)

 

50% would be 10 seeds.  that is about what I'm averaging, but last night got 13 tater seeds, so RNG liked me there.

Sometimes more , sometimes less, BUT even after upping to 20 seeds, I still show a net profit.

 

For SP this is fine.  For MP, it would still work, but just have to reinvest into seeds for a bit to grow the size.

 

Tossing 3 pts into that tree isn't much since I go heavy in that area anyway (heavy armor, MG/brawler) 

 

For those who don't go down that one, well, that's your choice.  I don't go deep into INT/Agi until later in the game.

So I use more resources/time for smelting crafting.  (but full mining means I have more resources. trade off)

 

I DO prefer the having to replant btw, since the old way, I'd punch out a few crops by accident. (wonky hit boxes for a few crops)

 

Would I like the full perk to be a bit better on seed return?  Of course!

 

It is workable though.

 

(go try getting a farm going in Valheim for oh, say turnips or onions, when you only find 3 miserable seeds.  How long until it's viable for crops?

(flax too, but that one ends.  BARLEY though....  heh.  You basically have to keep recreating the Great Plains)  😛

 

 

[PoppaSmirk]

I have made comments on this general topic before,  but not on this specific one.  So,  Just from My perspective,  I have a base with a limited amount of available area for farming,  so for Me the "huge Farm Concept" wasn't going to be ideal.  I have enough Farm Plots to plant 34 seeds.  I place 6 each corn and potatoes, 5 for mushrooms(+1 open for when I can craft an extra mushroom 'spore'), 4 for pumpkin, 4 for blueberries,  3 yucca, and 4 aloe vera, and 1 plot that I tried to plant some super corn in, but added 1 normal corn this last harvest.  So after some really bad harvests while at LoTL2, I finally ranked up to LoTl3, and I am now still having a slight struggle to make enough food for 4 players;  My last harvest yielded enough that I could make a total of 5 meat stews and 2 steak and potatoes.  I'm still unsure how the corn crop varies so widely.  My last harvest I had to re-craft 5 new corn seeds;  but I still had a surplus at the end of 9 corn.  4 pumpkin plots yielded no seeds, so end result there after re-crafting new ones was a whopping 3 pumpkins,  small but still a surplus.  Blueberries however went wild.  I only had to re-craft 1 new seed so surplus was 11 blueberries.  I still find the new farming a bit of an aggravation.  But I am eating cooked foods using LoTL3   I'm looking for ways to expand the number of farm plots,  to "work the odds" a bit more in My favor.  I mentioned that I have 4 players,  but usually the 4th one only jumps in on weekends,  so other times there are only 1 or 2 playing, so less mouths to feed.   Last night We played 5 hours of Real Time, so I didn't have enough to feed everyone on cooked food,  but between farming and scavenging,  no one went hungry.

 

I think the largest aggravation is having to deal with the unpredictability at this point.   The extra time  to replant is only taking 2-3 minutes from play each time I harvest, so thats not a big issue to Me.   It is a big change from A19,  when I "knew" that each harvest I would be able to cook  X amount of meat stews,  and Y amount of Steak and Potatoes,  and Z number of pumpkin or blueberry pie.     It's simply a new feature I will have to get accustomed to,  like buying a new car that doesn't have rear window defoggers,  when your previous car had it as a 'standard feature'  *grin*

[JCrook1028]

31 minutes ago, PoppaSmirk said:

I have enough Farm Plots to plant 34 seeds.

 

31 minutes ago, PoppaSmirk said:

I am now still having a slight struggle to make enough food for 4 players;

Well no kidding feeding 4 out of 34 plots may be an issue for space...