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Some questions about the new tiles.

 

Can custom tiles obey the same constraints as traders? Specifically, max_count, min_count, and min_repeat_distance?

 

Will it be possible to specify that tiles only spawn in certain biomes?

 

From what has been said in the dev diary, the POIs inside different tile plots will be chosen based on POI name. Is that correct? If so, what are the specific naming conventions that POIs must follow? If it's just something like prefab_1 then how do custom POI designers name their POIs without the risk of duplicating/interfering with the names of POIs from other designers?

 

Can portions of tiles act like POIs, e.g. contain sleeper volumes?

 

EDIT: Also, can tiles specify that only certain other tiles spawn next to them? Example: Tiles A and B have open-ended subway tunnels that are open to the west; tiles C and D have open-ended subway tunnels that open to the east. Can tiles A and B specify that only tiles C and D spawn to their west (or vice versa), so that these subway tunnels connect across tiles?

Edited by khzmusik (see edit history)
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I'm looking forward to Wednesday and the RWG session. I've seen previous sessions and the Q&A seems to be a "jump ball" of quick questions that quickly scroll past. Longer questions are likely to get lost in the shuffle. I thought I'd follow khzmusik's lead and ask questions here. Maybe they'll help TFP folks prepare for the session. Some of these just confirm fundamentals (as I understand them) based on what we learned in the Dev Diary forum and other Dev videos.

 

The RWG will create a Settlement (city, small town, etc) with 1 or more Districts (city center, commercial, industrial, residential, etc), right?

 

We can define custom Settlement types, right? If so, how? Perhaps via XML?

 

District Tiles are placed contiguously, right? That is, they're placed next to each other, not scattered in a patchwork manner about the Settlement.

 

Does the RWG ever repeat District types in a Settlement? That is, could it decide to have two City Center districts?

 

We can define custom Districts, right? If so, how? Perhaps via XML?

 

Can we tell the RWG that a custom District should have a minimum size, maximum size? Can we specify dimensions? For instance, can I tell the RWG that my custom district should be 1x3 minimum and 2x6 maximum? (Min X = 1, Max X = 2, Min Z = 1, Max Z = 3) I'm asking because not all potential Districts I can envision would be major parts of a city and I'd hate to see one end up being 1/3 of a City. Another reason is a prefab modder might build out a District over time and during early releases nobody will want to see a sprawling but highly repetitive District.

 

A Tile's filename tells the RWG which District it represents and the expected road support (rwg_tile_CityCenter_corner_XYZ_01), right? Or, is there some other indicator?

 

What does the RWG do if you do not provide all of the expected road geometries? That is, what if you provide cap, corner, straight, and t, but do NOT provide intersection? Is the District considered invalid? Do you get a "missing Tile" error? Do you get some other District's intersection? Does the District just not contain any intersections?

 

A Tile can contain 0 or more Markers, right? (I understand a Tile without Markers is probably not the expected use.)

 

A Marker can represent the placement of a POI or the placement of a Part, right?

 

The RWG chooses a POI to place in a Marker by matching the District name with the value of the POI's XML tag for Zoning and the X,Z dimensions of the POI. Early demonstrations had the X,Z dimensions matching exactly, but there was some talk of matching within some range down to the next standard size, or something like that. Which way did it turn out? Is it perhaps an option when you define the Marker?

 

What does the RWG use any other factor to determine placement of Parts? That is, if a Tile has a 10x10 Part where the creator envisioned something like a Food Truck, what keeps something like a 1x1 mailbox from being placed there?

 

Whatever the RWG mechanism is for picking Parts to place, is it aware of its proximity to the edge of the Tile? If so, could it pick Parts smartly depending on if the part will connect to another Tile of the same type of District, or not? That may be confusing, so here's an example. Assuming I am creating my own District and I want to make sure that all of my District's Tiles have a sidewalk that connects 20 blocks in from each corner. (Kind of like how TFP standardized the location and size of road connections.) This way, the connections to other Tiles in my District will have that sidewalk connectivity between Tiles. Of course, I cannot expect other Tiles in other Districts to meet that interface. So, if a Part defined to hit the edge of a Tile could potentially trigger a test of the neighboring Tile to see if it was from the same District. If not, then pick a non-connecting Part, like grass or air, versus a connecting Part being sidewalk. Without that test, I'll end up with sidewalks that just end, or run into buildings, extend towards the Wilderness, etc. Phew. (This is kind of like khzmusik's last question, but my thinking was coming at it from a different angle.)

 

IIRC, we can only put POI Markers at Ground Level on a Tile. Does that mean that Part Markers have to be at Ground Level too?

 

Can we put Markers for Parts inside a POI, or are Markers/Parts solely a capability of a Tile?


Above, khzmusik asked if a Tile could have a Sleeper Volume. If so, what happens if we define a Sleeper Volume on a Tile in a position such that it completely envelopes a Part? What if it completely envelops a POI with its own Sleeper Volumes? What if a Sleeper Volume partially envelops a Part or POI? Will the resulting overlapping Volumes cause problems?

 

Can Parts on a Tile include Quests? For instance, a tier 1 "Find the Bag" quest where the bag is atop a billboard? That's probably too easy, but does the tech support it?

 

How do you keep "Buried Supplies" quests from landing at locations that intermix with Tile features, like sewers and Parts? Or, is that kind of complication part of the charm? (They buried the supplies under the water tower? Gee thanks.)

 

If you're looking for a suggestion for integrating Tiles and new Quests, consider a block that can be placed at a location in a Tile that indicates a "Defend Location" quest is supported at that location. Then traders could send players to that location. Maybe its a Quest that can only be triggered at night. When triggered, a couple of (scaled) waves of Zs attack based on the number of players and their levels within some established distance from the quest trigger. Maybe the Z's triggered have their awareness heightened when they spawn. I think that suggestion involves features already in the game.

Edited by zztong (see edit history)
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Oh, oh, I forgot about Stamps. I'm really curious how Stamps figure into RWG.

 

Are Stamps entirely related to terrain? Stamps just change the surface/ground, right? You couldn't use a Stamp to place a cave, right?

 

Do Stamps and Tiles ever intermix, or are Stamps how the Wilderness is made? For instance, could a Tile's or POI's ground be made rough through some kind of noise or Stamp integration?

 

Is there a way to target Stamps at the edge of maps? For instance, if you wanted a world with a deep water harbor on one side of the map to support Tiles and POIs that had ships on them, could you do that? Similarly, is there a way to target Custom Cities and/or Districts to land next to a deep water edge of a map? (That is, instead of having ship POIs placed in the middle of an RWG world where they are land-locked, parked on a tiny lake.)

 

Oh, and the Wilderness...

 

Tiles don't apply to POIs being placed in the Wilderness, right? That is, a POI in the Wilderness could be larger than 150x150?

 

Can we somehow specify that a Wilderness POI is to be placed adjacent to a City Tile? If so, I doubt there's a way to make roads match up to the Tiles, unless there were some convention for matching up some standard Wilderness POI size, like a 300x300 Wilderness POI could conceivably match up with two 150x150 Tiles. Yeh, a 300x300 POI could be made into a big bundle of performance problems. I could see why that could be undesirable.

Edited by zztong (see edit history)
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Okay, combining everything into one bizarre scenario...

 

Let say a person wants to make a 16k map that represents an archipelago, like say the Florida Keys and Key West. They want water to be 75% of the map. Could stamps be used to make uninhabited islands? Maybe a custom Ocean biome? If Settlement Tiles were defined that any non-road edges were coastline, would I end up with a reasonable looking island city, or would rotations of the Tiles and things end up with little bits of coastline scattered throughout? What would roads between Settlements be like ... earthen causeways?

 

... okay yeh, I'm going to stop now. So many questions, so little time. :)

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19 hours ago, zztong said:

Okay, combining everything into one bizarre scenario...

 

Let say a person wants to make a 16k map that represents an archipelago, like say the Florida Keys and Key West. They want water to be 75% of the map. Could stamps be used to make uninhabited islands? Maybe a custom Ocean biome? If Settlement Tiles were defined that any non-road edges were coastline, would I end up with a reasonable looking island city, or would rotations of the Tiles and things end up with little bits of coastline scattered throughout? What would roads between Settlements be like ... earthen causeways?

 

... okay yeh, I'm going to stop now. So many questions, so little time. :)

 

Isn't what you call a "tile" and a "stamp" actually the same thing? A city in A20 will be made out of many such 150x150 tiles that define spaces for POIs. (really not sure about this though)

 

The interesting question to me is whether tiles are used outside of cities (or if they will be) and whether 100% of the land will be made out of tiles eventually or just selected places.

 

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6 hours ago, meganoth said:

Isn't what you call a "tile" and a "stamp" actually the same thing? A city in A20 will be made out of many such 150x150 tiles that define spaces for POIs. (really not sure about this though)

 

I don't think so, but I could be wrong. Tiles have been demonstrated to be built in the Prefab Editor, like POIs, and have Markers indicating where POIs and other things (Parts) can be placed. Stamps have been demonstrated to be things like Mountains and terrain features that can be applied to otherwise normal terrain to add something like a cliff or a mesa to the world. They are said to be height-map files of some RAW format. There is a "Stamps" folder in your game and it includes files like "Rivers." I think Stamps are what make the ground bumpy, where as a generator like KingGen uses some "noise" function. Or, I could be full of crap. Hence the questions.

Edited by zztong (see edit history)
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37 minutes ago, zztong said:

 

I don't think so, but I could be wrong. Tiles have been demonstrated to be built in the Prefab Editor, like POIs, and have Markers indicating where POIs and other things (Parts) can be placed. Stamps have been demonstrated to be things like Mountains and terrain features that can be applied to otherwise normal terrain to add something like a cliff or a mesa to the world. They are said to be height-map files of some RAW format. There is a "Stamps" folder in your game and it includes files like "Rivers." I think Stamps are what make the ground bumpy, where as a generator like KingGen uses some "noise" function. Or, I could be full of crap. Hence the questions.

 

Yeah, you could be correct. I found Kinjayoo's post about the stamps again and while a tile without any spaces for POIs could very well have a cliff or a lake, mountains sound more like a "bigger" feature while city tiles are definitely all the same "small" size.

 

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During some of the teaser videos of the tile system, we saw examples of the tiles rerolling POIs from their corresponding bucket of prefabs based on zoning type. It got me wondering:

 

Would it be possible to set up a system where when taking a new trader quest you could have an option to keep or 'reroll' the quest's prefab? (ideally, non-player selected from a list of valid candidates remaining in the tile's bucket for that size category)

 

Or was the RWG tile rerolling system only for testing tiles in the editor? (e.g. tile buckets only roll once during initial generation, generation system is not exposed, and POI performance considerations per tile and with adjacent tiles take precedence)

 

I recognize It's hardly realistic, but it could be a system that would allow people see all the hard work put into POIs without needing obscene map sizes or breaking the gameplay loop. Even if it's a developer mode option only, having the ability to keep or reroll POI's around you that you've already run a couple of times or maybe really enjoy but haven't seen might be a nice way to mix it up for folks who have put a lot of time on their gameworld.

 

Anyhoo, just a thought. Excited for the stream and seeing the new tile system, parts, and buckets in action.

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2 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Yeah, you could be correct. I found Kinjayoo's post about the stamps again and while a tile without any spaces for POIs could very well have a cliff or a lake, mountains sound more like a "bigger" feature while city tiles are definitely all the same "small" size.

 

 

Dev Stream Episode 4 at 16:41 they show some RWG stamps.

 

Here's a Dev Diary post by Kinyajuu that mentioned stamps:

 

 

There's a semi-related video on YouTube where Tallman Brad Gameplay discusses using Stamps to make a height-map for use with KingGen:

 

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1 hour ago, Scythe-Messiah said:

During some of the teaser videos of the tile system, we saw examples of the tiles rerolling POIs from their corresponding bucket of prefabs based on zoning type. It got me wondering:

<snipped>

Anyhoo, just a thought. Excited for the stream and seeing the new tile system, parts, and buckets in action.

yes that was in the prefab editor and i wouldnt want the tile being reset if i was looting a different poi in that same tile. :)

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3 hours ago, zztong said:

I discovered last night the free version of "World Machine" can open the 7D2D raw files, which is what is found in the "Stamps" folder. I've never before used World Machine. It looks neat.

KingGen can covert the raw files to PNG as well

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@Kinyajuu

RWG really looks awesome! Especially in the towns. Love that this is now easily moddable. This really feels like an actual town now! (although farms shouldn't be in the city :'D don't know where you live, but over here, that only happens in very small villages)

Very small idea, that came to me while watching the rwg-stream:

We need damaged concrete.
We already have "bloodstains" and "garbage".
Now what is missing is damaged concrete (I've seen it on a bridge in the stream, but I am not sure if that would work).

Slightly cracked concrete that has small grass sticking out of it. It would happen more frequently on the sides of the roads, but can also happen in the middle.

Because right now, all the buildings look AWESOME. Like... I believe this has been deserted for like... maybe years!
But the roads look like they have been refurbished yesterday.

So this would actually add A LOT.
(I know it is probably more complicated to implement in RWG, but I firmly believe it is worth the effort!)


 

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14 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

@Kinyajuu

RWG really looks awesome! Especially in the towns. Love that this is now easily moddable. This really feels like an actual town now! (although farms shouldn't be in the city :'D don't know where you live, but over here, that only happens in very small villages)

Very small idea, that came to me while watching the rwg-stream:

We need damaged concrete.
We already have "bloodstains" and "garbage".
Now what is missing is damaged concrete (I've seen it on a bridge in the stream, but I am not sure if that would work).

Slightly cracked concrete that has small grass sticking out of it. It would happen more frequently on the sides of the roads, but can also happen in the middle.

Because right now, all the buildings look AWESOME. Like... I believe this has been deserted for like... maybe years!
But the roads look like they have been refurbished yesterday.

So this would actually add A LOT.
(I know it is probably more complicated to implement in RWG, but I firmly believe it is worth the effort!)


 

I live in Oklahoma. The outskirts of Tulsa and OKC are like this. Lots of farm land too valuable to turn into housing. So business try to set up where they can buy land and get it zoned. Afterwards, it ends up looking like this. Heck, there is a huge ranch in South Tulsa. :)
The art bits aren't really an RWG based thing.  The roads may get a grunge pass at some point just not at the moment. The level guys had to churn out a ton of POIs this round.

Edited by Kinyajuu (see edit history)
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54 minutes ago, Kinyajuu said:

I live in Oklahoma. The outskirts of Tulsa and OKC are like this. Lots of farm land too valuable to turn into housing. So business try to set up where they can buy land and get it zoned. Afterwards, it ends up looking like this. Heck, there is a huge ranch in South Tulsa. :)
The art bits aren't really an RWG based thing.  The roads may get a grunge pass at some point just not at the moment. The level guys had to churn out a ton of POIs this round.

Thx. Well howdy partner :D
I didn't know that. Guess it only looks weird to a western european then.

 


What I meant was that sure, there is the arts guy that has to paint the cracked concrete...
but I mean as in placement on the street AND gras spawnchance on top.
So instead of
g = gras; s = sandy gravel;  c=concrete d = damaged concrete (chance for gras)
___________________________
gggggggggggggggggg
sssssssssssssssssssssssssss
ccccccccccccccccccccccc
ccccccccccccccccccccccc
sssssssssssssssssssssssssss
gggggggggggggggggg
___________________________

you can have
___________________________
gggggggggggggggggg
sssssssssssssssssssssssssss
cdcccccdccccccccccccdc
cccdccccccccccddcccccc
sssssssssssssssssssssssssss
gggggggggggggggggg
___________________________


Hard to explain, but I think you know what I mean.
A random chance that a concrete block is replaced by a concrete block, which has a chance to spawn small gras on it.

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3 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Thx. Well howdy partner :D
I didn't know that. Guess it only looks weird to a western european then.

 


What I meant was that sure, there is the arts guy that has to paint the cracked concrete...
but I mean as in placement on the street AND gras spawnchance on top.
So instead of
g = gras; s = sandy gravel;  c=concrete d = damaged concrete (chance for gras)


Hard to explain, but I think you know what I mean.
 

That makes good sense to me. each roadblock tile would have a chance to spawn as a damaged version of that tile. You could make the likely hood that a tile near it would be damaged be higher so long meandering sections might be damaged and a small single square would to give it a random feel. and a 1/3 chance of a grass growing up of 1/20 for a random crop.

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