Horde Night feedback - less smart zombies

[John Black]

23 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

You can always roll back to an older alpha version in steam to test whatever theories you come up with.

 

Regarding raising block HP on horde nights, then what?  I'm curious what new base defense gameplay you had in mind that would be more enjoyable then what we have now.

 

My memory is alittle dusty but I believe prior to the "smarter" AI, the strategies players used were to surround their base with spikes and remove any stairs so the zeds could reach you easily.  

 

 

The AI changed so rolling back to whatever ain't going to prove/disprove anything.

 

So you like what we have now? Good for you.

[Laz Man]

2 hours ago, John Black said:

 

The AI changed so rolling back to whatever ain't going to prove/disprove anything.

 

So you like what we have now? Good for you.

 

Just trying to help and also understand you better.

 

Wasn't sure if you were aware you could or not.  The reason I mentioned it so you can test out whatever ideas you worked out in your head if you wanted to.  If not, no big deal.

 

Have a good day sir.

[Roland]

4 hours ago, Laz Man said:

My memory is alittle dusty but I believe prior to the "smarter" AI, the strategies players used were to surround their base with spikes and remove any stairs so the zeds could reach you easily. 

 

Don't forget the pillars that had a gap between them through which we could melee and shoot the zombies but they couldn't touch us....

[Roland]

6 hours ago, kidmo31 said:

Problem is nothing is solved changing just the rules of Horde Night. All things are defeated with time for preparation. There is literally nothing the Devs can change about that event to make it harder that cannot be undone with player preparation. The balance is about time management.  We are given 6 3/4 days in game of pretty much free reign. There is only one wandering horde I actually fear early game and those are the animal related ones. Those are limited to once per 24 hours so can be planned around. The place to fix is that 6 and 3/4 days we have to prep. 

 

There is some truth to that and also that it is much too easy to skip wood and even cobblestone and already be at cement by even the first 7 day horde with all that prep time. In addition, another huge reason that the rules of Horde Night don't really matter when all is said and done is because of the very nature of zombies. Their motivation is to get to the player and ignore injury and just keep moving to the player any way they can. This means we have foreknowledge of where they are headed and the assurance that they will not sabotage or even acknowledge traps that we set up. It is too great of an advantage but it is also their nature and can't be abandoned. Once bandits are in we will have enemies that will (hopefully) retreat, take cover, target traps rather than just walk into them, jump to ladders rungs just like we do, and coordinate with each other at least to a degree. Maybe we will eventually have an occasional bandit base assault event against us when our reputation gets too poor with one particular faction and the kill corridors won't work against them like they do with the zombies.

[meganoth]

I think a principal difference for novice players between A16 and A19 horde night building is that in A16 bases could be built "independant" of the threat. I.e. the first idea coming into the game will invariably be to have thick walls between himself and the zombies, like a bunker or a castle.

 

This has advantages: Novice players will not be walzed over at the start of the game. It is also more immersive that historical knowledge works as expected. And building for style instead of function can happen much easier even for the horde base.

 

BUT on the other hand it practically prevents any evolution of the player from novice to expert because he already knows too much. Expect for finding exploits and some knowledge on what block arrangements make for good melee caches. There is simply no development here and that is usually a big part of what makes a new game so much fun. Sure, there are still other parts of the game with much to learn, but the tower defense part would just be a static element where basically the player has mastered the game from the start.

 

For me horde night base building really began in A17, before that the farming of the materials and finding a cement mixer was more important than thinking about a design. So I would vote 1 or 2

 

Oh, forgot that in A16 all bases were built to just put lots of block HP between you and the zombies. Consequently zombies were only dangerous when they could destroy A LOT of those block HP through the night. Consequently it meant 2 days just of horde base repair (without counting the farming of materials). I never want to go back to this extreme grind.

 

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[John Black]

5 hours ago, Laz Man said:

 

Just trying to help and also understand you better.

 

Wasn't sure if you were aware you could or not.  The reason I mentioned it so you can test out whatever ideas you worked out in your head if you wanted to.  If not, no big deal.

 

Have a good day sir.

I’ve mentioned thick walls and castles in multiple posts in this very thread including the use of traps and alarms so I felt it was pretty clear what I wanted regarding base defense. For that reason, when you asked, I interpreted your question as being sarcastic and replied accordingly. I’ll not jump to conclusions so quick next time :).

 

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

Oh, forgot that in A16 all bases were built to just put lots of block HP between you and the zombies. Consequently zombies were only dangerous when they could destroy A LOT of those block HP through the night. Consequently it meant 2 days just of horde base repair (without counting the farming of materials). I never want to go back to this extreme grind.

I was hoping that with all the new turrets, triggers, traps and mines, a good design could keep them off the wall if done right. And if they were to break through, having some more pain installed until they get to the second wall.

[kidmo31]

13 hours ago, John Black said:

I understand where you’re coming from and your previous points. I personally will not touch a public server with a low respawn until some of your points are addressed. But unpredictability will always makes something harder so I can't agree with you on that one.

 

But to get back to horde nights, you have to start somewhere else you’re not going to get anywhere.

 

I do believe my original suggestion to limit the path finding would be a small change that could have a huge impact on horde nights...that is if it were to play out as I’ve imagined it in my head.

Ok so we limit path finding. Then we are right back to horde cubes. Unpredictability is nearly impossible to make a effective threat with the current Zed skills. Concrete can survive any solo zombie minus the Demo. Now a demo that random blows up would add some fear. But is that fair gameplay?  Splitting the group of Zombies by adding idiot zeds just makes the death corridor more effective.  Honestly we need some Zombies with skills to manage around. Like if the cop spit actually could penetrate bars and spread. Have the burner have a napalm type move in later GS,  A zombie that could rip you from a open space. ( I know very L4D2 ). The party girl shooting Pool Balls ala Zombie Strippers lol.  but that is honestly the only way I could see adding challenge without removing traps and such.

[John Black]

5 hours ago, kidmo31 said:

Ok so we limit path finding. Then we are right back to horde cubes. Unpredictability is nearly impossible to make a effective threat with the current Zed skills. Concrete can survive any solo zombie minus the Demo. Now a demo that random blows up would add some fear. But is that fair gameplay?  Splitting the group of Zombies by adding idiot zeds just makes the death corridor more effective.  Honestly we need some Zombies with skills to manage around. Like if the cop spit actually could penetrate bars and spread. Have the burner have a napalm type move in later GS,  A zombie that could rip you from a open space. ( I know very L4D2 ). The party girl shooting Pool Balls ala Zombie Strippers lol.  but that is honestly the only way I could see adding challenge without removing traps and such.

First, I’m not expecting this to be the default option, I asked for a setting to experiment with.

 

And you are right, and I am aware of the limited zombie skills. Was thinking about demo getting frustrated beating on walls and blowing up after X seconds. I try not to bring too much to the discussion else it ends up as a debate about secondary issues rather than the primary. Again, you have to start somewhere, then use the tools, xml, mods to build towards a vision.

 

We can debate cubes, their pros, cons and repairs, anti-cube zombie skills but that’s a secondary issue.

[Vaeliorin]

12 hours ago, meganoth said:

Oh, forgot that in A16 all bases were built to just put lots of block HP between you and the zombies. Consequently zombies were only dangerous when they could destroy A LOT of those block HP through the night. Consequently it meant 2 days just of horde base repair (without counting the farming of materials). I never want to go back to this extreme grind.

That base I posted on the last page was from A16.  It had a single shotgun turret on each lane and spikes in the lanes, and could take on horde nights with full rad zombies without needing more than minimal repair (some of the poles on the inside end sometimes took some damage, and obviously the spikes.)  So no, it didn't require all that farming of materials and days to repair.

 

It did, admittedly, take about 3 in game weeks to dig out and build (with an augur), but that shouldn't be unheard of for having an essentially unassailable base.

[bachgaman]

On 9/1/2021 at 8:59 PM, pApA^LeGBa said:

I remember that when that slider was removed, that it was said that it´s only due to balancing reasons and that it will come back. I really should start screenshooting such posts from the team. @Roland

 

We really shouldn´t have to fiddle around with xml files just because we don´t play on a potatoe. I don´t even have a high end PC (CPU was 180€), but i can up the spawn at least 3 times with no performance issues. What is wrong with bringing back that slider? Won´t stop the game from running on old computers.

 

Are they really talking about balancing a game that has Treasure Hunter and trader's rewards? Lol I thought they just didn't care about balancing

On 9/1/2021 at 11:03 AM, John Black said:

So I’ve been playing a good bit the last couple of months and just want to give some feedback regarding Horde Night AI.

 

With the current AI it’s pretty much gauntlet style horde night with little variation. What I don’t like about this type of gameplay it the predictability and lack of scalability. The predictability makes it boring and due to the AI limits you can’t really scale out too much.

 

I want horde night zombies to be dumb and start bashing on my stuff from any direction and only revert to ‘smart’ AI when they can’t reach the player. A bit of smarts would be okay, I mean I don’t want them to try break steal when there is a wooden door around the corner.

 

From what I’ve observed, I’m assuming the following about zombie horde AI.

1) Zombies will try to path X blocks to player probably adjusted based on HP of blocks in between.

2a) If they’re unable to find a path within adjusted X, they’ll start bashing towards the player. (or maybe start closest to player in failed path)

2b) If they can’t reach the player, they’ll start breaking down supports or start digging.

 

So without changing things too much, I would guess that if we can get access to X, the variable that determines when the zombies will give up pathing, we can dramatically change how horde nights play out. X will of course have to be tied to Horde Night zombies only as we don’t want feral sense zombies(A20) turning stupid in POIs.

 

I have noticed AIPathCostScale & utilityai.xml but from my limited knowledge I don’t think there is enough to change things on horde night.

 

To make the zombies less predictable, they should with some probability use suboptimal paths, and also have a script to purposefully collapse the building if there is no path. Unfortunately, this will never change. As they say, fix the xml file or try to limit yourself by playing without a base and without a weapon

[meganoth]

4 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

That base I posted on the last page was from A16.  It had a single shotgun turret on each lane and spikes in the lanes, and could take on horde nights with full rad zombies without needing more than minimal repair (some of the poles on the inside end sometimes took some damage, and obviously the spikes.)  So no, it didn't require all that farming of materials and days to repair.

 

It did, admittedly, take about 3 in game weeks to dig out and build (with an augur), but that shouldn't be unheard of for having an essentially unassailable base.

 

I know you can carefully craft a base that actually coerces zombies to follow a path because there is nothing else. Excellent achievement. But it is just the exception in the mass of possible designs. I never built such a base in A16, I don't know anyone who built such a base in A16. If we still had A16 AI, would you now be suggesting that all players always carefully copy that design so that they don't have much to repair? 

 

 

 

[Vaeliorin]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

I know you can carefully craft a base that actually coerces zombies to follow a path because there is nothing else. Excellent achievement. But it is just the exception in the mass of possible designs. I never built such a base in A16, I don't know anyone who built such a base in A16. If we still had A16 AI, would you now be suggesting that all players always carefully copy that design so that they don't have much to repair?

No, I just didn't agree with your statement that all bases in A16 were the same, and that they all took forever to repair.  Honestly, in A16 I was usually done with cleanup and repair by noon on the day after horde night, so I just feel like you overstated how things were.

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

No, I just didn't agree with your statement that all bases in A16 were the same, and that they all took forever to repair.  Honestly, in A16 I was usually done with cleanup and repair by noon on the day after horde night, so I just feel like you overstated how things were.

 

I stand corrected. "all" is certainly too much. I also forgot that a bug in A16 (the zombies who ran in circles when they couldn't reach you) made another design viable (the stilt bases) that actually did not get much damage either.

 

[JCrook1028]

15 hours ago, bachgaman said:

To make the zombies less predictable, they should with some probability use suboptimal paths, and also have a script to purposefully collapse the building if there is no path

They already do both of those randomly. Do you even play the game?

[bachgaman]

1 hour ago, JCrook1028 said:

They already do both of those randomly. Do you even play the game?

Of course. They always run to my corridor. Maybe 1% of them stand aside and beat random blocks of ground for some time 

[Laz Man]

The zombies also dont come from the same direction which some people still don't know.  The direction changes throughout the night..  The AI also won't go out of its way to go through a hole that is too far away.  I've seen this often in bases that are too large.

 

 

[Roland]

48 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

The zombies also dont come from the same direction which some people still don't know.  The direction changes throughout the night..  The AI also won't go out of its way to go through a hole that is too far away.  I've seen this often in bases that are too large.

 

 

 

This is true. But there are some players who will build a base small enough so that the "hole" at the end of the kill corridor will be pathed by every zombie that comes to the base. They could build a larger base so that the zombies wouldn't all path to one spot but they won't even if they claim that they wish there was more variety in zombie behavior. They won't let go of that design no matter how you explain that it is their own choice that is leading to a gamestate they aren't enjoying.

[Guppycur]

To cheese or not to cheese.  Meh, people's choice.  Some don't build bases at all.  Looking at you gazz. 

[unholyjoe]

20 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

This is true. But there are some players who will build a base small enough so that the "hole" at the end of the kill corridor will be pathed by every zombie that comes to the base. They could build a larger base so that the zombies wouldn't all path to one spot but they won't even if they claim that they wish there was more variety in zombie behavior. They won't let go of that design no matter how you explain that it is their own choice that is leading to a gamestate they aren't enjoying.

oh so true as usual.

 

thats why each game when i create a new map, i will choose diff perks in the order, test some different melee weapons (except the hand wraps) nope wont do no one any good to try to ask me why.. its my choice.. either way.. every game is fresh and goes differently and i will build at different locations and different style of base.

 

if the game is boring or repetitive.. you aint changing enough to make it different.. you get out of it what you put into it.

 

now i am teaching another newbie and damn i created a 7dtd mad man.. it is so refreshing to see people enjoy the game and not complaining. so when a20 drops, a lot of newbies fresh to the game will get hooked.  (i hope)

 

also... yes i am teaching him in a19.6b8 when a20 drops he will taste it new like the rest of the public who opts in will.

Edited October 7, 2021 by unholyjoe (see edit history)

[Guppycur]

I dislike horde nights because I can't not make the same effective base.

[John Black]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

 

This is true. But there are some players who will build a base small enough so that the "hole" at the end of the kill corridor will be pathed by every zombie that comes to the base. They could build a larger base so that the zombies wouldn't all path to one spot but they won't even if they claim that they wish there was more variety in zombie behavior. They won't let go of that design no matter how you explain that it is their own choice that is leading to a gamestate they aren't enjoying.

 

People will mostly go for the most efficient route in games even though they don’t like it. Game companies constantly attempt to make changes, forcing players away from cookie-cutter builds/skills/strategies. This is most definitely not the place to debate which party is responsible for variety, so I’ll leave it at that.

 

The suggesting of building bigger is completely valid but for me the plan breaks down for one main reason. Zombies will seek out weak points from too far away, hence my main post suggestion. If I may ask, in your builds, how many breaching points to you have during horde night without moving the breach by patching?

[Roland]

2 hours ago, John Black said:

 

The suggesting of building bigger is completely valid but for me the plan breaks down for one main reason. Zombies will seek out weak points from too far away, hence my main post suggestion. If I may ask, in your builds, how many breaching points to you have during horde night without moving the breach by patching?

 

My preference is to take over pretty good sized brick building

POI's. I gut the the first floor and put a second wall inside the existing one. I fight on that floor through windows at the 2m height and make repairs as I can. If I notice zombies are through the first layer and beating on the second layer I retreat to the upper floor to shoot from above. I usually have about two to three points that could potentially breach. Usually the weakened points are on different walls so even once one breaches the zombies still pound on the other but it is true that once the breach occurs most of them come in through there. But by that time I've moved to my second level so I don't care where they come in from. That's the first couple horde nights. After that I usually fill in the bottom floor and simply fight from above.

 

I have noticed a significant relaxing of their rigid "one best pathway" behavior of A17 and they definitely path from a shorter distance than they used to. For horde night that is a good thing as it promotes more varied behavior but for the rest of the game week it is getting depressing as more and more zombies act erratically and choose ridiculous paths as they wake up in POI's. I really wouldn't like to see things get any more random from them as most of what I consider my preferred game happens during the other six days of the week than horde night, tbh. Horde night can be thrilling but it is just one event and I enjoyed this game long before horde night was even a thing.

 

If I had one wish it would be to have separate pathing rules for horde night and then I would hope that longer path detection and less random behaviors could be reinstated so the zombies behave more like they did in A17 while exploring POIs. Then I wouldn't mind if they made the zombies even a bit dumber for horde night. That being said, I don't want a return to pre-A17 horde nights. The way it is now if you build a basic bunker with sunken spikes you get a pretty close to classic experience. But if you want to design a kill corridor and funnel the zombies through it you can also do that and that also has a lot of appeal and it is something that could not be done effectively under the old AI.

[John Black]

Thanks for the comprehensive and detailed reply Roland. And I cannot agree any stronger with you that zombies should be smart, and not to wreck POIs during normal times.

 

I can also sort of convince myself that during horde night the zombies go into a frenzy, making them dumb, allowing for more beeline bashing with shorter pathing or SI annihilation mode if they can’t reach the player.

 

We have a good assortment of ideas and views in the thread. Hopefully the devs would consider exposing an option for us to play with horde night pathing, allowing gameplay to stay the same for those who prefer it the way it is currently.

 

Edit: What if during horde night some zombies actually became smarter, avoiding traps, Feral Wight? Secondary thing I know, just couldn't resist .

 

Edited October 8, 2021 by John Black
Spanner in the works (see edit history)

[RBN]

I was reading you guys and thinking....

The idea of more "intelligent" zombies in daily game make sense, this will make more difficult to avoid them. Maybe the new sense will improve this.

But for BM I'm not sure if more "stupid" zombies will improved the challenge.

What do you think about more "structural intelligent" zombies for BM?

Some sort of dual behaviour, some of them will chase the player but others will attack the structures behind and around him.

Something similar to actual rage mode but more precise that search the effective collapse of the defense build.

 

 

 

 

 

[faatal]

3 hours ago, Roland said:

If I had one wish it would be to have separate pathing rules for horde night and then I would hope that longer path detection and less random behaviors could be reinstated so the zombies behave more like they did in A17 while exploring POIs. Then I wouldn't mind if they made the zombies even a bit dumber for horde night. That being said, I don't want a return to pre-A17 horde nights. The way it is now if you build a basic bunker with sunken spikes you get a pretty close to classic experience. But if you want to design a kill corridor and funnel the zombies through it you can also do that and that also has a lot of appeal and it is something that could not be done effectively under the old AI.

Is possible. Added to todo list.

 

They do still look for long paths, but they use reduced block health precision and may quit on the paths, based on intelligence, and do destroy area instead.