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Do game developers owe anything to the people buying their games?


Kyonshi
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3 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Kingdoms and Castles and Sanctum (1&2) for example.

They're not very common, but they do exist.


As far as I cna tell the A.I. is not heatseeking either.
They attack the closes points. But that is not the same as following one exact path to the weakest point.
Also... that is a 2D game...
Yes it is in 3D, but there are only 2 axis.


I was a HUGE fan of a WC3 mod called "Geldteilen" (and other similar ones) where it was actually necessary to exploit the A.I. with some classes to get the most out of your tower.

But those are not the same.
While this is somewhat a builder, it is not really a TD game.
That is because TD means trying to defend with stategic placement of traps and towers...
This is just a strategy game like any other.

Stronghold is not a tower defense game, no matter what you wanna claim.
If we include games like this, TD Games lose their meaning and we need another name for the ACTUAL TD games.


PS: Could someone move all the irrelevant posts for the OP?
This has become so far off topic, I feel sorry for OP, but I can't let inaccuracies stand like that :D

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I will if the OP asks me to but who can tell what @Kyonshi thinks. Maybe they're just thrilled their conversation starter took off and they aren't so concerned about sticking strictly to player entitlement. No need to feel sorry for them if they are perfectly happy with how the thread is going.

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1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Also... that is a 2D game...
Yes it is in 3D, but there are only 2 axis.

In Kingdom & Castles you can build multi-tier walls and scaffolding so that the enemy will follow the path up or down depending on where your defending troops are.

It's not the same as 7D2D of course, but they'll follow the path of least resistance to their objective in a 3D environment.

 

I'm not sure about Sanctum since I played that one a LONG time ago, but it was a 3D TD game in first person where monsters tried to reach your base, and you could move around placing walls and turrets and shooting them (similar to this is also Orcs Must Die).

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Who are we to say what genres can or cannot be mixed together?   Game devs are constantly mixing and matching genres together creating all new experiences and if the end result is fun for the majority of people I'd say thats a job well done.

 

If you had asked me 10 years ago if I would enjoy an open world voxel sandbox type game with tower defense elements I probably would be skeptical yet here I am...😅

 

On a side note, there is a fairly new game called tribes of Midgard that similar survival/crafting with tower defense mechanics where a horde of enemies attacks your "base" from 3 different directions on a daily basis.

 

In that game you can build some towers and defenses but ultimately the player can't do anything to alter the path of the AI at all apart from killing them out right.

 

Whereas the the TD in 7d2d is so much more engaging since players can customize there base with so many different options to defend.

 

Name me one tower defense game where the AI is more fun to play against as I would love to check it out myself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Laz Man (see edit history)
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Specifically talking about this game:

Morally the devs have done the best of their ability to make the best game they can and have gone to great lengths to supersede their initial efforts repeatedly and eventually by hiring new talent. 

 

Legally its a wash but even if the supreme court rescind Steam's "get what you get" policy.  It would be very easy to defend TFP because they did and are going above and beyond what a reasonable person would expect. 

Edited by Aldranon
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7 hours ago, Laz Man said:

Who are we to say what genres can or cannot be mixed together?  

It is not wether they can exist together.
I can also put a big block of ice on a campfire.
But one WILL take away from the other.
And that is not an opinion. You can not have a free builder AND a "follow set path" without the builder feeling somewhat pointless.

Sure I could imagine a game that exists where you can build and direct the enemies to your liking while the rest is a builder... but that only means that the two features don't lock in with each other.
It is basicially two different games then. A builder and a TD game.
Just linked by a small chain of... 'ressources' maybe?

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15 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

give me a single 3D builder TD game.
Like where you can build in 3D space, but the A.I. only ever follows the easiest path.

Because those two concept are, as I said, mutually exclusive. Where the one excels, the other one has to compromise.


If they only take one path, the rest of the build is pointless, if they don't take a single path, it is not a traditional TD (which is fine! I was just saying that them following one path makes building in 3D space totally obsolete.

Why build a maze, if they only ever follow one path?

 

Generally you have taken 7D2D alpha17 as example of a TD with one path and 3D builder mix and now argue you have proven that it isn't possible because alpha17 couldn't do it? But that is not conclusive, you have to show that ALL POSSIBLE implementation of such a genre-mix need to compromise, not just one.

 

Just as a small counterexample, the one path is susceptible to exploder zombies. Who can say what the result would have been if TFP had added smaller version of exploders who spawn from day one? And if that isn't enough, what if they added some AI that makes exploder zombies acting different than other zombies? What if they made the changes that they actually did in A18? A small percentage of zombies that don't follow the one path was done exactly to combat the easy exploit and I don't see anyone argue that A17's AI was complete and free of cheese.

 

Secondly your definition of a traditional TD is not the last word on that, especially since exact definitions are almost impossible with games where standards shift with every new game.

According to wikipedia TD began with Dune II and gained popularity with Starcraft. I couldn't find any Dune II TD maps but a lot of Starcraft maps, and those have an arbitrary numbers of paths. Unless you define traditional to not even include the old Starcraft I your definition is just very very narrow. And if you exclude it we would have to call Starcraft I as modern !????

 

A17 was the very first version of the new AI and you are comparing it to a A16 AI which had at least a few iterations of fixes through the years to combat easy exploits. There is no question A17's AI was exploitable, but it was still more fun to a lot of people. The fun naturally depends on how fast someone stumbles on an easy exploit. My group for example did not and consequently even horde nights were interesting for us and for the first time in 7D2D it felt like tower defense and not just like a 3D Stronghold.

 

I actually agree with you that A16s AI is generally and even as a matter of principle less susceptible to exploits/cheese! But the problem is that the principle of a successful Tower Defense game **is** to "exploit" the enemies strategy by some degree. Naturally not in a way that it becomes trivial.

And that makes it much more difficult to get right, especially in a game without limits to building. It is no surprise that the first iteration did have some pronounced weaknesses. But on the other hand without the profound AI change in A17 we would not have real Tower Defense but just a gameplay reminiscent of Stronghold type games. And since you said it above I'm sure we agree that Stronghold is not traditional Tower Defense, no matter what "traditional" means.

 

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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11 hours ago, Laz Man said:

Who are we to say what genres can or cannot be mixed together?   Game devs are constantly mixing and matching genres together creating all new experiences and if the end result is fun for the majority of people I'd say thats a job well done.

 

If you had asked me 10 years ago if I would enjoy an open world voxel sandbox type game with tower defense elements I probably would be skeptical yet here I am...😅

 

On a side note, there is a fairly new game called tribes of Midgard that similar survival/crafting with tower defense mechanics where a horde of enemies attacks your "base" from 3 different directions on a daily basis.

 

In that game you can build some towers and defenses but ultimately the player can't do anything to alter the path of the AI at all apart from killing them out right.

 

Whereas the the TD in 7d2d is so much more engaging since players can customize there base with so many different options to defend.

 

Name me one tower defense game where the AI is more fun to play against as I would love to check it out myself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

orc must die - you have barricades - if they have 1 open wide enough way they want to go there way. -  some enemies just walk and attack, some of them are focused on destroying traps, some of them fly and shot, some of them are focused on hunting of your character. so it is pretty fun. 

 

metal gear survival on end game locations.  it is grind fest in typical japan style. You need to get a lot of good turrets , upgraded weapons, a lot of ammo to make this levels. you have in limited time find resources , grind crystall so get good score and protect device.  enemies have large number and can take a lot of dmg , you have armored ones,  mix of mortal and automatic shotgun tough guy, jumping karate zombies or..... dragonfly. 

 

So a lot of types of enemies = something interresting

Edited by Matt115 (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

Generally you have taken 7D2D alpha17 as example of a TD with one path and 3D builder mix and now argue you have proven that it isn't possible because alpha17 couldn't do it? But that is not conclusive, you have to show that ALL POSSIBLE implementation of such a genre-mix need to compromise, not just one.

 

Just as a small counterexample, the one path is susceptible to exploder zombies. Who can say what the result would have been if TFP had added smaller version of exploders who spawn from day one? And if that isn't enough, what if they added some AI that makes exploder zombies acting different than other zombies? What if they made the changes that they actually did in A18? A small percentage of zombies that don't follow the one path was done exactly to combat the easy exploit and I don't see anyone argue that A17's AI was complete and free of cheese.

 

Secondly your definition of a traditional TD is not the last word on that, especially since exact definitions are almost impossible with games where standards shift with every new game.

According to wikipedia TD began with Dune II and gained popularity with Starcraft. I couldn't find any Dune II TD maps but a lot of Starcraft maps, and those have an arbitrary numbers of paths. Unless you define traditional to not even include the old Starcraft I your definition is just very very narrow. And if you exclude it we would have to call Starcraft I as modern !????

 

A17 was the very first version of the new AI and you are comparing it to a A16 AI which had at least a few iterations of fixes through the years to combat easy exploits. There is no question A17's AI was exploitable, but it was still more fun to a lot of people. The fun naturally depends on how fast someone stumbles on an easy exploit. My group for example did not and consequently even horde nights were interesting for us and for the first time in 7D2D it felt like tower defense and not just like a 3D Stronghold.

 

I actually agree with you that A16s AI is generally and even as a matter of principle less susceptible to exploits/cheese! But the problem is that the principle of a successful Tower Defense game **is** to "exploit" the enemies strategy by some degree. Naturally not in a way that it becomes trivial.

And that makes it much more difficult to get right, especially in a game without limits to building. It is no surprise that the first iteration did have some pronounced weaknesses. But on the other hand without the profound AI change in A17 we would not have real Tower Defense but just a gameplay reminiscent of Stronghold type games. And since you said it above I'm sure we agree that Stronghold is not traditional Tower Defense, no matter what "traditional" means.

 

 

honestly i will tell this in 2  parts.

1. weaker  explorders zombie could be interesting. you know. you fall to cave or flooded basement  and there is drowned zombie - he will attack you like normal zombie but on death he have 50% chance to explosions. weak dmg against block and medium against player but high chance to infected you , broke legs and make bleeding.

 

2. honestly AI of zombies in 7dtd became... too smart. what i mean ? zombies in my opinion should have at least 2,5x  higher number that actuall. And be more stupid. if they can't get to you some of them should just stand there and watch at you . some of them ofc should be more aggresive and try to destroy blocks but  looking for diffrent way by jumping etc is just meh. i understand this in cod because magic ( yep magic demons 115, eterium btw honestly i want ww2 zombie game but without any magic like nza, cod or wolfenstein just zombie as infected people similiar to l4d2 or dead rising.)  7dtd most of them are "slow zombie"  so should be stupid but have big number. ofc we have feral zombies but they should have new "more fresh looking " as  infected a short time ago with models like zombie bandit or survivor. so zombie AI in 7dtd is bad because they are too smart.  

 

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Honestly - i'm kinda dissapoited with setting - the old alphas give vibes more similiar to F.E.A.R. - whispers , dark, lack of ammo etc just wait for ghost girl . it was so good. but now? it looks to colourful and brightly. Too much in "american light vibes".  And this big disadvantage in my opinion. I know if they decided to keep deppresing and creepy setting less people bought this game but it would give so rare feeling in open world games. Honestly i would prefer rotting hanging corpses, random teddy  bear and crazy bandits that bandits in colourful hairs and guns make of junk

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2 hours ago, Matt115 said:

1. weaker  explorders zombie could be interesting. you know. you fall to cave or flooded basement  and there is drowned zombie - he will attack you like normal zombie but on death he have 50% chance to explosions. weak dmg against block and medium against player but high chance to infected you , broke legs and make bleeding.

They're adding it in A21: it's the new dancing demo kid. Takes you out with cuteness and little explosions...

Spoiler

 

 

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Besides the unrealistic weight carrying and construction speeds, basically everything else could be considered realistic. (squinting your eyes a little)

 

Zombies you say?  I say Rabies virus that progresses quickly though Stage 1 <Edit: taking 7 days...> but doesn't progress past a Stage 2 infection (any bets some level 4 lab in the world hasn't been funded to do something like that?)

Edited by Aldranon (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)
On 8/21/2021 at 5:58 PM, Roland said:

I will if the OP asks me to but who can tell what @Kyonshi thinks. Maybe they're just thrilled their conversation starter took off and they aren't so concerned about sticking strictly to player entitlement. No need to feel sorry for them if they are perfectly happy with how the thread is going.

I dont mind this. A topic like that is a complex one and sooner or later, there can be people who drift a bit from the main thread, since there's so many points discussed and involved.

 

My intention was to survey what do people think about the issue i mentioned, more on a moral standpoint than the legal side of it, although i do appreciate the input of some people about that legal aspect.

 

I enjoy reading the replies and i believe everyone's take about the subject is important. Even the one from those who are going the other way from the majority, like Viktoriusiii, who's demonstrating the kind of mentality i think is fundamentaly flawed and that i was talking about initially. He/She delivers his/her point way less aggressively and with more respect than what i observe on Facebook though.

 

Its important to know that there's people who think this way because its a golden opportunity to rectify that mentality, which is rooted in ignorance for the most part, with verifiable and documented data, facts and info. Just like you did Roland, with your replies on Saturday during the night. This embodies everything that there's to know about the creative and PR approach of the Pimps. It couldnt be clearer and is the most constructive answer to my initial question so far and beyond.

 

As an overview of the whole thing, i think its a shame that indie developers have to deal with this bull@%$# when they bust their asses with far more limited resources than major studios. We see the laters launch AAA titles that are plagued with bugs, for 90$, and some of those flaws are easily a result of an amateur, rushed and careless job (hello Bethesda, Ubisoft and CD Projekt Red).

 

People today are used to have lots of games being released in rapid sequence, on multi-platform. Seeing an indie dev like TFP, who takes its time to build a good game, over years, raise suspicion because it creates a loud contrast with many big titles that come out every 2 years, with sequels. This, i guess, gives the impression, mostly for the haters, that TFP are taking their sweet time, do the minimum required to give the impression they're "working" on something and call it a day, racking up the money. Which of course is monumentaly far from what those haters imagine. And when the Pimps dare to talk about that damn Twitch integration, then the entitled folks burst with anger and stupidity. For them, its a confirmation that the devs dont work on important stuff...

 

Its not because you can directly talk to a lead designer, through social medias, that they have to submit to your input or worse, to your entitlement and insults.

 

Video games are an art. Like any other of the seven previous forms of art. You dont ask a singer or a film maker to do like you want, you dont lecture them about their craft when you dont know the reality of it. So its the same for video games.

Edited by Kyonshi (see edit history)
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On 8/21/2021 at 3:58 PM, Roland said:

I will if the OP asks me to but who can tell what @Kyonshi thinks. Maybe they're just thrilled their conversation starter took off and they aren't so concerned about sticking strictly to player entitlement. No need to feel sorry for them if they are perfectly happy with how the thread is going.

plain and simple roland all you guys at the TFP owe us is a complete game on your guys time table not ours :)

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10 hours ago, Kyonshi said:

As an overview of the whole thing, i think its a shame that indie developers have to deal with this bull@%$# when they bust their asses with far more limited resources than major studios.

 

But then again, developers at major studios have to deal with bull@%$# of another sort from marketing executives and corporate deadlines and work policies... The Fun Pimps much prefer the interaction with the fans even it isn't always pretty. :)

 

At least here, the most demanding fans only act like they are the task masters whereas the devs at large studios actually have to deal with real task masters.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Roland said:

 

But then again, developers at major studios have to deal with bull@%$# of another sort from marketing executives and corporate deadlines and work policies... The Fun Pimps much prefer the interaction with the fans even it isn't always pretty. :)

 

At least here, the most demanding fans only act like they are the task masters whereas the devs at large studios actually have to deal with real task masters.

I understand what you're saying, but that's not my point.

My point is, as naive as it can sound, is that the Pimps achieved something that few big major developers could ever do, with far more means and tools than the Pimps have. The 7DTD community still plays a game that's 8 years old and after every Alpha, the community grows and the game get much more appeal. The game isnt even finished yet and its considered a cornerstone in the genre. 

Im saying that its a shame that the Pimps are being given that much @%$# by people, because those haters can't see the achievement i mentioned above, or they do see but choose to be dicks, when they should be humble and stop being dicks. They should stop giving that much @%$#.

The video game industry is brutal, the competition is unforgiving. Studios shut down the following day without notice. CD Projekt Red got it in the nuts really hard btw. Great game concepts are developed over months and get canned for X reasons and the staff is laid off like they're leftovers. And gamers hate that when this happen. We get attached to some games and franchises and devs, and get @%$#ed off when it just vanishes, like we are given the finger. Yet, the Pimps are still rolling well and sound, with, again, much less power than bigger players in the business and to see that they're given so much crap is a shame and quite frustrating. People should just stop that imbecile attitude.

I admire smaller, underdogs who are still going strong in such barbaric business. Sure, there will always people complaining and @%$#ing, i realize that im too idealistic. Yet, this is still the truth. I've been playing video games since about 35 years now, this always have been my main hobby and i did see the evolution of it all, particularly watching capitalism running it like we see today. And i cant accept that devs like the Pimps, or any other indie developers for that matter, get to suffer from such insane criticism. Its ok, it doesnt keep me from sleeping at night and neither does it keep the Pimps from living their dream as well, hahaha! But the reality is that too many people are ignorant and entitled, its affecting the business negatively and this has to cool the @%$# off a bit.

Im rambling way too much now lol. But im saying, if we wanna keep our hobby healthy enough, we have to stick our heads off our asses and come to sense that some people, read artists, just wanna make our lives nicer. The hate is currently going way overboard right now. I guess its the aspect of interactivity that video games bring that give the hater the impression that they have a legitimate right to give @%$#, that something is due to them?

Edited by Kyonshi (see edit history)
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TL/DR

 

i know, why would anyone do that?

because.

Do game developers owe anything to the people buying their games?

 

yep. game developers owe the players the game they bought as they bought it.

If you buy early access games, yas takes yer chances..

could be good, could be not..

 

tl/dr; don't gamble if you are not prepared to lose

 

my personal opinion: tfp is kicking all the ass, do casinos still have nickel slots?

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4 hours ago, 12pack said:

my personal opinion: tfp is kicking all the ass, do casinos still have nickel slots?

 

On that note they need to have a casino POI with at least one working slot machine to win/lose some dukes.  But make it rigged with a bomb so if you try to dismantle it to get the dukes it explodes.

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20 hours ago, Kyonshi said:

I enjoy reading the replies and i believe everyone's take about the subject is important. Even the one from those who are going the other way from the majority, like Viktoriusiii, who's demonstrating the kind of mentality i think is fundamentaly flawed and that i was talking about initially. He/She delivers his/her point way less aggressively and with more respect than what i observe on Facebook though.

Thank you. It is totally ok if people disagree.
I just think many people let their emotions get the better of them (me included, especially after people have talked @%$# for no reason :D)
Often majority opinion is just BS of people who either all go with their feeling (I like to play 7D2D therefor, TFPs are doing a good job) or are just repeating/following peer pressure. AND the community of regular posters are pretty same minded...

Roland is often a good mediator, but he also falls victim to... beeing a bit more passive agressive than necessary 😛 Which spurs people like me on to get @%$#y :D

 

20 hours ago, Kyonshi said:

As an overview of the whole thing, i think its a shame that indie developers have to deal with this bull@%$# when they bust their asses with far more limited resources than major studios. We see the laters launch AAA titles that are plagued with bugs, for 90$, and some of those flaws are easily a result of an amateur, rushed and careless job (hello Bethesda, Ubisoft and CD Projekt Red).

Okay... so imagine you buy a puzzle.
That puzzle has the image of dogs, which you love and has about 300 pieces of the guessed finished 500.
You buy that because they say they need the money to finish it and promise to finish it and fix the parts that are broken.

After 7 1/2 years, of the 50 broken puzzles, only a handful are still broken, YAY. But they still are broken and unusable in places.
BUT in the meantime, you had a good time... but every few months, they changed the design a bit.
They added parts, deleted some... repainted others.
Now it is still a puzzle, but it is only 200 pieces now because they said it was too difficult for younger players, the image of dogs was scrapped and now it is a farm where a dog is in the background and there are still about 100 pieces missing.

Would you say that the buyer was 100% rewarded and should not have any right to complain?

With excuses like "well there is still a dog" and "the game has become a lot easier to get into" and "the design is far more visually pleasing!"

But your 500 piece dogpicture, it is no more.
It was not advertised, that the dogs owuld go away, just that the puzzle is "subject to small changes". Nor were you made aware of the other changes.


I understand why many people are mad at them.
7D2D is not a horrorgame anymore. It has become more survival in 19 and I support that. But it is not an RPG, it is a lootershooter. And everyone who says otherwise seems to have a very different definition of these genre.
7D2D has gone through so many iteration of features that I sometimes forget about gunmolds...
And I do like that they try out stuff... but 7 1/2 years of alpha is...
Well lets just say it is justified that websites and people are making fun of them. I personally do not ascribe to that, I find it admirable that they still work on the game, BUT I also would like to see the game finished in my lifetime...


*rambling off*

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18 minutes ago, SnowDog1942 said:

The question is, do people owe ME anything after they purchase my latest XXX film?

yes, stake. even @unholyjoe is more saint that you! i understand everything but rly midgets?? my friend is in mental hospital now! after watched this he was barely alive.

 

So remember good people of TFP FORUM - never watch film suggested by @SnowDog1942. you can pay it with your live 

WARNING X WARNING X WARNING X WARNING X WARNING X WARNING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NEVER WATCH HIS MOVIES. NEVER.

Now it will be half seriouse half joke :

I DON'T KNOW WHAT DO YOU THINKS GUYS BUT I THINKS TFP OWNS US ANNOUNCEMENT OF THEIR NEW GAME AFTER A20. 

honesty i know you want this too !

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1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Thank you. It is totally ok if people disagree.
I just think many people let their emotions get the better of them (me included, especially after people have talked @%$# for no reason :D)
Often majority opinion is just BS of people who either all go with their feeling (I like to play 7D2D therefor, TFPs are doing a good job) or are just repeating/following peer pressure. AND the community of regular posters are pretty same minded...

Roland is often a good mediator, but he also falls victim to... beeing a bit more passive agressive than necessary 😛 Which spurs people like me on to get @%$#y :D

 

Okay... so imagine you buy a puzzle.
That puzzle has the image of dogs, which you love and has about 300 pieces of the guessed finished 500.
You buy that because they say they need the money to finish it and promise to finish it and fix the parts that are broken.

*snip to make things brief in my reply, not to hide what you stated*

When we bought the game in Early Access, it was just a chance to play the game in a working state as the developers continued working on the game.  No where in the agreement or even mentioned by TFP was the right to dictate where they were going in the development of the game.  They can (and have) listened to feedback about this game, but they are not obligated (either lawfully or ethically) to implement ideas / feedback submitted by the community.

 

As for people complaining about how long it has been (and still not a finished game), that is their right to complain.  I haven't been around as much as some people with this game, I believe I got in around Alpha 16 (I don't recall ever having to fight the hornets and I know I had at least once Alpha before 17).   However, for an unfinished game, I have put in 3k+ hours into it, and just started looking at mods now to change some things up.  If TFP released it today as is, I would have no real gripes as I have easily played this game more than any finished game in my library.  If it takes them another 10 years to finish it, again no gripes.

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