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Carpenter/Mason Skill?


Carpenter and Mason skills  

21 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you like Carpenter and Mason skills added to the game as a prerequisite for building?

    • Yes, I think it's a necessary addition to the game.
      2
    • Yes, I think it would be nice but I won't lose sleep on it.
      4
    • I don't care, I don't build much anyway.
      0
    • I'm not sure this will work, I'd rather say no.
      4
    • Definitely no, building must be available from the get go!
      11


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I know some of you guys will think I must be crazy to say this... but I just realized that of all the skills we have we've never even thought about needing skills to actually build structures.

I mean... think about it, we even need to learn how to cook Bacon&Eggs, but for some weird reason we already start the game with full carpenter/mason knowledge! :confused2:

 

IMO, if (and that's a BIG if) they ever give skills a second pass, they should add both a Carpenter AND a Mason skill.

The Carpenter skill would allow you to build anything with wood in it, while the Mason skill will enable you to build with Flagstone, Cobblestone and Concrete.

 

What y'all think?

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Its an interessting thought, but i think the building-mechanics are already somewhat gated, since we need the respective material to upgrade our base. Rushing that skill wont make us steel-bases faster 😅

 

However then again, many things are gated behind certain materials needing to be found... 

But you CAN do just about everything if you find all schematics, you will only be less efficent at them. 

So if we translate that to your suggested skill: there must still be a way to build and upgrade our base without said skill. This could either be achieved trough schematics, or make it more expensive to upgrade without the skill?

 

In any case, for me personally i dont feel a need for such skill, but if it would have existed, i suppose i would deal with it without too many complains. 

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1 hour ago, Hyperbolt said:

So if we translate that to your suggested skill: there must still be a way to build and upgrade our base without said skill. This could either be achieved trough schematics, or make it more expensive to upgrade without the skill?

That's actually an excellent idea!

It would work like some of the other existing skills that way, seamless! :thumb:

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3 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

I know some of you guys will think I must be crazy to say this... but I just realized that of all the skills we have we've never even thought about needing skills to actually build structures.

I mean... think about it, we even need to learn how to cook Bacon&Eggs, but for some weird reason we already start the game with full carpenter/mason knowledge! :confused2:

 

IMO, if (and that's a BIG if) they ever give skills a second pass, they should add both a Carpenter AND a Mason skill.

The Carpenter skill would allow you to build anything with wood in it, while the Mason skill will enable you to build with Flagstone, Cobblestone and Concrete.

 

What y'all think?

I like the idea but the implementation seems kind of poor.

 

I would remove the mason, and just have a carpenter perk that gives you +>value<reach  so you can build and upgrade from further away, and at later levels will consume less materials when upgrading and let you place blocks faster.

 

It should not be forced to be able to build since it is a core feature and would just waste perks which are already awful to work with. I created a mod to remove the bacon and eggs from being gated because that's just stupid. I can boil eggs and meat but I'm too stupid to put them on the same plate? Get the $#$@ out of here with that.

 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Darklegend222 said:

I like the idea but the implementation seems kind of poor.

 

I would remove the mason, and just have a carpenter perk that gives you +>value<reach  so you can build and upgrade from further away, and at later levels will consume less materials when upgrading and let you place blocks faster.

Yeah, that actually makes sense.

It's more similar to how (e.g.) learning weapons works: you can shoot any weapon without having the skill, but you'll get bonuses if you invest. :sad:

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So I voted the "rather say no", but really my reaction is "maybe, maybe not, I need to hear more details".

 

3 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

It's more similar to how (e.g.) learning weapons works: you can shoot any weapon without having the skill, but you'll get bonuses if you invest.

 

Off the top of my head, this seems like the most promising idea. Maybe resource cost is lowered if you perk into "Master Builder". Maybe (no clue if this is possible) your blocks get % boost to hit points or SI. I'm the builder on my team, so the idea is interesting, if it could be balanced with the other gates (i.e. for iron, steel, high-end repair tools).

 

TFP, though, seems to be moving in the opposite direction, having gotten rid of the table saw requirement for some designs.

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I voted definitely no, but I'd be willing to add skills for higher tier materials like steel and concrete.  For base crafting, it needs to be available from day zero (no skills spent).

 

Having said that if they do revisit skills I hope they do away with stats and just make trees of skills where one skill at a given level could be the prerequisite of another skill.  Not a few tall trees like in Diablo and the like but lots of short trees that are only a few skills deep.  If done right this would allow people to pick and choose a few trees to specialize in without requiring someone to be level 99 or so to max out a tree.  There definitely needs to be more focus on building/crafting and survival in the skill trees, though, just not sure how complicated it should get.  Survival and crafting are right there in the subtitle of the game, after all.

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9 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

I know some of you guys will think I must be crazy to say this... but I just realized that of all the skills we have we've never even thought about needing skills to actually build structures.

I mean... think about it, we even need to learn how to cook Bacon&Eggs, but for some weird reason we already start the game with full carpenter/mason knowledge! :confused2:

 

IMO, if (and that's a BIG if) they ever give skills a second pass, they should add both a Carpenter AND a Mason skill.

The Carpenter skill would allow you to build anything with wood in it, while the Mason skill will enable you to build with Flagstone, Cobblestone and Concrete.

 

What y'all think?

Well it can work but they want to make upgrades simple so skill should reduce crafting costs

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8 hours ago, Maharin said:

I voted definitely no, but I'd be willing to add skills for higher tier materials like steel and concrete.  For base crafting, it needs to be available from day zero (no skills spent).

 

Having said that if they do revisit skills I hope they do away with stats and just make trees of skills where one skill at a given level could be the prerequisite of another skill.  Not a few tall trees like in Diablo and the like but lots of short trees that are only a few skills deep.  If done right this would allow people to pick and choose a few trees to specialize in without requiring someone to be level 99 or so to max out a tree.  There definitely needs to be more focus on building/crafting and survival in the skill trees, though, just not sure how complicated it should get.  Survival and crafting are right there in the subtitle of the game, after all.

 

One thing to add... I think it would be good if some of the harder, "higher level" skills or skill tiers would require more than one prerequisite.  That would allow for balancing some of the fiercer AoE weapons, for instance, as well as some of the end game skills/tiers (like level 4 & 5 weapon skills).

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Starting quest "Craft 3 wood frames and place them".

Damn Jim, i am a doctor not a carpenter, where should i get that book ?

 

And the gamemechanic is against mason anyway.

You place one block on another, when any mason would do this at his qualification i don't think he will made it. 🙂

 

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14 hours ago, Canute said:

Starting quest "Craft 3 wood frames and place them".

Damn Jim, i am a doctor not a carpenter, where should i get that book ?

 

And the gamemechanic is against mason anyway.

You place one block on another, when any mason would do this at his qualification i don't think he will made it. 🙂

 

 

I'd like to see changes to the starting quest anyway.  If you woke up naked and stranded somewhere with no humans around, would your first thought be to start chopping down trees and begin a construction project?  Not me - I'd take shelter in the nearest standing structure.

 

An important thing to remember is that building progression will be gutted in A20.  TFP says there will be a "simplified upgrade path" with only wood, cobblestone, concrete, and steel.  No more reinforced wood, iron, flagstone, bricks, rebar, etc.  Because it'll be so thinned out, I don't think there will be space for both carpentry and masonry skills.

 

I think it would be neat to unlock different shapes.  As a novice builder, you can manage to hack together big solid blocks and ramps, which look spartan but get the job done.  As an experienced builder, you can handle more refined shapes like iron bars, catwalks, and stairs with railings.  A master builder can do form and function, with all the trim and interior decor blocks.  The updated shape menu could facilitate this.

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Posted (edited)

Our characters can do pretty much everything at a rudimentary level without having to spend any points so I would want building to be the same. Maybe gate anything above wood with a skill. The trailer for the game shows the guy defending on the first horde night from a wooden hut but in the game most people are building from materials that are beyond the ability of that first blood moon horde to even be in danger of breaching. So I wouldn't want to have to spend a point to be able to do any building but I'd try a mod that used some sort of building skill tree to delay the better blocks a bit longer.

 

The real problem, though, is that players will always choose the best option. If they can only build with wood then instead of building they will knock out the stairs of a large brick building and stay on the second floor until they can build with the tougher stuff and no skill tree gating will stop that (nor should it). So I don't see it as really being a viable design since the world is open and people can use existing buildings so easily anyway.

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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1 minute ago, Roland said:

Our characters can do pretty much everything at a rudimentary level without having to spend any points so I would want building to be the same. Maybe gate anything above wood with a skill. The trailer for the game shows the guy defending on the first horde night from a wooden hut but in the game most people are building from materials that are beyond the ability of that first blood moon horde to even be in danger of breaching. So I wouldn't want to have to spend a point to be able to do any building but I'd try a mod that used some sort of building skill tree to delay the better blocks a bit longer.

bad idea roland i tried that when i first started and suffice to say it didnt go well i ended up dying 8 times and my wood house base was turned into kindling

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Thanks everyone for your feedback. I see most people don't want to be starting the game without any knowledge on how to build structures, so I guess I'm in a very small minority on that. I thought there were more hard core survival players here to be honest.

 

Anyhow, if that's your reasoning here, I'd like to point out a few inconsistencies in the game that go against that same logic:

  • As already said we should start the game knowing how to cook Bacon & Eggs (much easier than even building a wood frame)
  • Since we know how to build basic stuff IMO we should also be able to build a forge from the get go, if you think about it, it's the most commonly used thing in the game, so why do we have to waste a point on it? (Same as building)
  • Following the same logic I don't understand why we have to start the game as wimps! Iron Guts for example, or Rule 1 Cardio should be inherent to every healthy man/woman from the beginning (at least level 1), instead we start out with the same endurance as a COVID patient.
  • One other thing that has always bothered me is that you can't craft armor at the start... that's preposterous, the "gate" there (if you want to call that) should be only about the necessary materials (everyone can strap some leather on his/her body with duct tape *wink wink*).

Ok, I'm just pulling your leg here... but I really think the Masonry and Carpenter skills should be added *at least* for higher tier building.

I like both the idea to limit the types of materials you can use AND the idea about the fancier shapes to be only available to more expert builders.

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The meta then just becomes tiny wood pathing exploit platforms or what Roland said until you buy or find the schematic. You're talking about adding like 7(?) skill points by adding a 3 tiered skill. That's not a small change. Concrete is not optional like jumping an extra meter or increased harvesting yield.

 

Also "I can't cook an egg! That's not realistic!" / "Yes! I finally got Master Builder! I'm going to fill my backpack up with so much concrete!" lol

 

 

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Half-baked solution: Keep rebar. Make it so it can't be crafted but can be purchased/rewarded. Anyone can upgrade rebar if they have concrete mix regardless of perks. Then if you skip the skills you're fine you just need to spend extra cash to buy concrete and frames. If you get the skill you don't need to buy the materials and can upgrade pre-existing structures saving you x per block.

But then how do repairs work?...

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Posted (edited)

Having a skillset for building could work if the system would be the same as with weapons. We're getting all those makeshift pipe guns cobbled together from scrap available from the beginning while the higher tiers require some knowledge.

Could be the same concept for building blocks. Makeshift structure blocks would only have a few basic shapes made from wood or scrap metal, would be slightly weaker HP wise and would get no option to change textures with paint but instead have their own "crappy" looking textures.

One example for crappy looking vs professional is already in the game :] The wooden doors we can build look like anybody could make them, just a few boards nailed together; the brown and white house doors would need some actual skill/ knowledge.

 

As for the higher tiers and players choosing not to skill into building - Well, they just gotta double and triple layer theirs stuff then 😛

Edited by Kam R. (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, wizard puke said:

Concrete is not optional like jumping an extra meter or increased harvesting yield.

 

Isn't it, though?  There are base designs where the hit points of individual blocks barely matters.  Then there are those that don't build a base at all.  I love building and it's a major focus of every playthrough I do, but I'd still say concrete is optional.

 

With that said though, concrete is basically a building tier, not a building track.  This will be even more evident in A20 since (and I can't overstate how big a deal this is) A20 will only have 4 building materials.  Tier 0 wood, tier 1 stone, tier 2 concrete, and tier 4 steel.  So one could say that logically carpentry and masonry are two separate skills, just as one could say that logically logging and mining are two separate skills... but as it shakes out in the game, it makes more sense for any skill(s) to cover the both of them.

Edited by Crater Creator (see edit history)
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If this was implemented, it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, I would just learn to adapt.  However, I tend to also look at it to see if this would enhance my playing or not.

 

Adding the skill would be a direct cost to building bases.  Lets say the skill was 3 levels (stone, concrete, steel) and tied to Intellect.  Do 1/3/5 as base stats required and to unlock the top tier base building, you need to spend 7 perk points in the Int tree.  Not an issue if you are already spending points in that tree, but my current playthrough I am not going above Int 1 for it.  So first horde night, I either will have to be lucky to find the schematic so I can unlock the first tier or spend a valuable perk point to unlock it, as wood is not going to hold back the horde at my settings.  After that, I would have to get lucky in looting or find it available at a trader.

 

Then we also already have indirect costs to base building:

  • Resource gathering - Need better tools and better perks to gather more quickly - not required but it is a challenge gathering resources without these
  • Concrete mixer - perk into, find a schematic, or find a working one
  • Steel - buy it, find a crucible or the recipe, perk into the crucible, mining iron and digging up clay to make
  • Traps - either find schematics or put points into perks
  • Electricity - again, same as Traps

So putting base building / POI upgrading behind another gate to me doesn't enhance my playing; it feels like chores at this point.

 

If you were to combine things, it might make it better IMHO - for example, combine the top tier with steel production so one perk unlocks both, not requiring to unlock two separate perks to build your top tier defensive walls.

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On 5/28/2021 at 1:30 PM, Jost Amman said:

Thanks everyone for your feedback. I see most people don't want to be starting the game without any knowledge on how to build structures, so I guess I'm in a very small minority on that. I thought there were more hard core survival players here to be honest.

 

As a mod, sure!  As the default game?  Not so much.

 

Everyone's vision of "hard core" seems to be a little different with lots of variation on what is the extreme.  I do, however, perfectly understand your argument of what should and should not be known at the start of the game.  I think that's where those first few points come in to play once you've completed the "tutorial" or "newbie quest" or whatever you want to call it.  Those are essentially your starting knowledge as far as I'm concerned.

 

If this was a lot more RPG-ish then I'd even say give us something like the start of Ultima (or Project Zomboid) where we can choose a starting class of sorts that gives us a set of skills that we like.  Everything else starts at zero, unable to be used until we put at least one point into it.  They could even use some trick like Asheron's Call did where this introduction stuff all happens in a POI in some corner of the map, deep under water and surrounded by bedrock.  No way back in once you leave and won't affect anyone's map to any significant extent.

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11 minutes ago, Maharin said:

 

As a mod, sure!  As the default game?  Not so much.

 

Everyone's vision of "hard core" seems to be a little different with lots of variation on what is the extreme.  I do, however, perfectly understand your argument of what should and should not be known at the start of the game.  I think that's where those first few points come in to play once you've completed the "tutorial" or "newbie quest" or whatever you want to call it.  Those are essentially your starting knowledge as far as I'm concerned.

 

If this was a lot more RPG-ish then I'd even say give us something like the start of Ultima (or Project Zomboid) where we can choose a starting class of sorts that gives us a set of skills that we like.  Everything else starts at zero, unable to be used until we put at least one point into it.  They could even use some trick like Asheron's Call did where this introduction stuff all happens in a POI in some corner of the map, deep under water and surrounded by bedrock.  No way back in once you leave and won't affect anyone's map to any significant extent.

Well honestly it it too late to speak about it. Because 7dtd go in minecraft or the forest road.  Well 7dtd have some "assumptions" : first you are not there at the start. You someone who survive few years after day 0 so you need to know few things that why are character survive.  Ofc some thing could be put like classes " enginerr , soldier , shopowner" and you will get some point in some skill trees for free. But builiding house you character probably learned before game started. Well so it even don't suit on balance but even in logical. Well if our character just wake up on day zero yeah his previouse work is important what he can do. 

Well i have idea for sandbox but they will probably will do another type of game so anyone will  care about this idea XD

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