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Current state of class system


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Hello everyone,
I would like to start this discussion about the class system to see what the players think about it.

TLDR I like the class system, it's fun and the skills are interesting, however I am restricted to the 5 classes designed by TFP and I cannot, for example, use spears and machine guns together.

Let me explain further. In the current system players are heavily encouraged to develop mostly 1 class. If they spread across multiple classes they will be weaker (at the beginning). As a matter of fact you need 23 levels to max out spears and snipers, but you need 42 levels to max out spears and machine guns. Sometimes a player might like to try a different combination, than the ones offered by the class system.

Let me give you some examples. If I like shotguns and clubs, well, i am in luck because there a class exactly for me. That class is Strength and I can just develop all my skills there. Now let's say that I like spears and machine guns. Ha! This time there is no class for me  because spears are under Perception and machine guns are in Fortitude. My choices are to develop the skills in both classes, but it would be slower and I would be weaker, or to abandon the idea to develop a character with these 2 skills  This is true for many other combinations. Sometimes I would like to get lucky looter and barterer in the same game, but they are under Perception and Intellect 

Maybe there is some way you can come up to minimize this issue. Perhaps the skills and perks could be slightly reorganized. I would like to know what the players think about it.

Kind regards,

Shijune.

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The way it is set up in the XML it would be relatively easy to mix and match, setting them up exactly how you want them.  It would even be possible to remove the stat requirements and simply allow allocating points to skills.

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It would be cool if someone created a nitrogen-esque tool for remapping the perks before starting a new game. Even a random shuffle could prove to be an interesting experience.

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I think the system is built with multiplayer in mind, each of the grand stats are centered around a particular playstyle with its own strengths and weaknesses, giving the players opportunities to specialize without becoming omni-capable, but it does make solo play a bit less flexible as a result.

I’d be hesitant to reshuffle the perks or add a feature to let players do that, especially since hybrid builds are incredibly viable albeit with a bit more planning than a mono-stat build (a lot of the cost of multi-classing can be reduced if you don’t rush to cap the core stat), because it would make the stats less defined and and homogenize playstyles through reducing the meaning of skill choices.

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Posted (edited)

Was discussed already dozens of times. :D

 

I also dislike that both a specific single melee and a ranged weapon is tied to each "class" and so "forces" you to use this combinations or to be inefficient with the skill points.

 

The main problem imho is, that the base attributes (str, for, agi, ....) give huge buffs to specific weapons, probably even more powerful than the weapon specific skill.

E.g. strength gives %5 dismember chance and 200% headshot damage to shotguns while boomstike gives 10% more damage, 10% reload speed and 10% fire rate.

 

My solution would be that the base attributes should give generic buffs. E.g. strenght 10% damage to ALL melee and ranged weapons, agility 10% firerate for also both melee and ranged, fortitude 10% reload speed to ranged and 10% less stamina usage to melee, perception 10% headshot damage, intelligenze reduce durability loss for all weapons/tools by 10%.

The weapon specific skills are still tied to the base attributes and you still need to put points into them for accessing the specific weapon skill but they have a generic use then. When a player wants to combine clubs and automatic weapons both strength and fortitude will affect both clubs and automatics.

Also for example agility is then (still) usefull for building a fast character that can use every weapon also faster but not forced to specific weapons in general.

 

And i see the multiplayer aspect of dividing the skills among the players. We also did that all the time for the utility skills, because it is more efficient, BUT: The miner skills into strength, he also has to become the chef, no matter if he likes it or not. The looter skills into perception. The player that skills agility becomes the solo-multiplayer, because his skills are absolutely useless for a group, however he can do quests solo. The fortitude player is somehow a tank but mostly he has to care for raw food (farming and hunting), however he probably needs the perception-player for hunting, because he has the animal tracker. And finally the builder of the group skills into intelligence but with his stun batons and auto turrets, he can almost do nothing during bloodmoons.

So, yeah, somehow "classes"... but badly organized classes.

 

And the weapon binding makes it even worse. Why has the miner to use shotguns and clubs? Just because strength itself buffs shotguns and clubs directly...

 

How do you want to remap the perks? Moving boomstick to perception doesn't really solve anything. What has to be changed are the base attributes.

And of course this is modable. That's nice, but also the vanilla settings should contain some logic and the skill system as it is is just broken. (imho the result if one single person decides how it has to look like and bases that only on how he himself prefers to play the game 😇)

Edited by Liesel Weppen (see edit history)
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4 hours ago, KingSlayerGM said:

@Roland the author might be a bot, since he copy-pasted my post 

... or maybe he just shares my view.. lol

 

I was wondering why this post seemed so darn familiar. 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Liesel Weppen said:

E.g. strength gives %5 dismember chance and 200% headshot damage to shotguns while boomstike gives 10% more damage, 10% reload speed and 10% fire rate.

That sounds a little like you've misunderstood the main attributes. They list the final total of the headshot damage, going from 200% to 300%, giving an actual damage increase of +50% at 10/10, and that ONLY to headshots. That's well in line with the weapon specific perks giving +50% at 5/5, with other goodies baked in.

Edited by theFlu (see edit history)
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1 minute ago, theFlu said:

That sounds a little like you've misunderstood the main attributes. They list the final total of the headshot damage

You're right, but that sounds little like you missunderstood my post. It's not about the exact numbers, but that the base attributes affect specific weapons, instead of giving generic buffs.

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7 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

You're right, but that sounds little like you missunderstood my post. It's not about the exact numbers, but that the base attributes affect specific weapons, instead of giving generic buffs.

I got the idea, I just try to keep the "information on the forums" clean. The idea isn't bad, that's kinda how it was for a while, but I just didn't have much to say about it ... :)

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56 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

I only play SP and I never felt that I couldn't use the spear with the machine gun if I wanted to.

 

Some people won't touch a weapon they haven't enhanced with perks despite the fact zombies are just as dead from bullets that came from an unperked weapon as they are from a perked weapon. It would still be a really fun tool that could allow players to re-organize the perks and attributes but you are correct about calling out the fact that there really is nothing to stop us from using any combinations of weapons that we wish as long as we are willing to shoot, swipe, or thrust those filthy unperked guns, clubs, and spears. ;)

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i am a min maxer if being honest but dont understand the problem some have with using a so called weaker weapon.

 

lets say a zombie has 100 hp and a weapon does 50 damage.

it takes 2 shots to drop a z.

 

then you perk in the weapon and it does an extra 40 damage.

first shot 90  second another 90.

still 2 shots...

 

a bit simple but you get the idea. 

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29 minutes ago, NukemDed said:

i am a min maxer if being honest but dont understand the problem some have with using a so called weaker weapon.

I am not a min maxer... and it's not about preferring an AK over a hunting rifle, because you have only 1 point in fortitude but none in perception. But the skills kick in massively.

29 minutes ago, NukemDed said:

then you perk in the weapon and it does an extra 40 damage.

first shot 90  second another 90.

still 2 shots...

Yeah, but now assume the Z has 150hp.

Without skills 3 shots, with skills just 2. And that are just body hits.

 

Back to 100hp, but landing a headshot:

Without skills 2 shots, with just one point in base attribute X: one shot.

 

And there other dependencies i choose my weapon for. For clearing a poi a hunting rifle is very impractical. There i'd prefer an AK or a shotgun, even if it is weaker with my skills, but with further progression with ferrals and irradiateds an unskilled AK may be to weak soon. Assume having perception at "only" 8. That gives you freaking headshot damage of 270%, but absolutely nothing for an AK.

But the rifles from perception are not really efficient in most cases. Only because of that i dislike perception builds. Would be much better if it gives a headshot bonus to ALL weapons, but the other base attributes not.

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1 hour ago, NukemDed said:

lets say a zombie has 100 hp and a weapon does 50 damage.

it takes 2 shots to drop a z.

 

then you perk in the weapon and it does an extra 40 damage.

first shot 90  second another 90.

still 2 shots...

I don't have any issues using a weaker weapon, but I usually don't find any need to either. The only case would be when low on ammo, which is not really an issue even in the early game; much less at the stage where you have mostly specced your main weapon - you'll be able to produce/buy your own ammo for it.

 

Anyway, that example is just .. minmaxing. All you need is a zed with 90 hp and you've literally halved your ammo consumption in the same example. The targets do have somewhat varied HP, so for each edge case there's also the opposite edge case, making the skills do roughly what they claim on average.

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Posted (edited)

I think they should remove attribute point requirements for perks. Just let the player mix and match perks as they wish. Why do attribute points exist? To funnel players into predefined roles. I know you don't have to stick to these roles, you can put points into multiple skill trees, but it is much less efficient. Player choice should only be limited by the base cost of perks as well as the increasing cost of leveling a specific perk.

 

Also, having perks assigned to attributes is highly limiting to developers if they plan on expanding the perk trees. You have to consider where each perk would logically fit instead of just being able to make an interesting perk and add it to the list. Why are chefs under strength? Why are javelins under perception? Having to consider these things is a waste of time.

 

If attributes have any place in the game, they would be as a secondary bonus that aren't tied to any specific perk. Probably have a separate attribute skill point that you gain when leveling up. As Liesel Weppen said above, just have attribute points provide non specific bonuses, like +3% melee attack speed or +5 hit points.

Edited by Maxley (see edit history)
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I kinda like Liesel Weppens take on this. Either the "classes" should give generic buff to all types of weapons in a specific group (melee, ranged, automated), or weapons should have their own class with subclasses that you can mix and match.

 

That's one example of LBD being better. You pick a weapon, use it and git gud at it.

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, theFlu said:

so for each edge case there's also the opposite edge case, making the skills do roughly what they claim on average.

Only for low HP enemies. With higher level enemies and thus more HP it becomes even worse.

 

500hp -> no skills, 50dmg -> 10 shots

500hp -> skills, 90dmg -> 6 shots

 

And if it is a radiated which heals himself, 10 shots with no skill might not even be enough, you most likely need 11. With the skilled weapon, there is still an overdue of 40hp damage, so 6 shots might be still enough.

It's also not about ammo consumption only, it's also about time. Homeing 6 hits takes less time then 10 or 11 hits. You will not only safe ammo, but also kill faster. The difference between skilled and not skilled is MASSIVE. That's not just a slight improvement that can be easily waived in mid to endgame.

Edited by Liesel Weppen (see edit history)
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6 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

500hp -> no skills, 50dmg -> 10 shots

500hp -> skills, 90dmg -> 6 shots

How's that worse, that's 60% ammo consumption, instead of the 50% at my 90 HP example..? With increasingly high HP, the skills will work closer to their stated effect.

 

NukemDed was using a min-max example to show that "the skills don't matter", I was just pointing out that it wasn't even remotely fair an assessment ...

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3 minutes ago, theFlu said:

NukemDed was using a min-max example to show that "the skills don't matter", I was just pointing out that it wasn't even remotely fair an assessment ...

Yep, i didn't realize that you answered to NukemDed and not my post. Sorry.

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Not a huge fan of the perk system tied to attributes as it is, neither do I require my tools of zombie doom to be equally perked-into.

But I ask myself what exactly is the point of killing faster in every single situation?

Actually, making not every weapon equally skillable under all circumstances adds tactical elements and makes choices more meaningful.

If it weren't that way, we'd have all Z hitpoints quintupled by A22 because every player inflicts maximum damage all the time anyway.

Untying weapons completely without adjusting for that - and as said, the current system is not my all-time favourite - creates a TWD scenario where you zap in for some zombie action and stay uneasily to see them decimated by the dozen by any toddler that happens to throw a fit.

I actually like that this is not just another dumb fps game.

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2 minutes ago, uncle.heavy said:

But I ask myself what exactly is the point of killing faster in every single situation?

Probably not during cleaning a poi, but very relevant during bloodmoon... which as i heard is a central aspect of the game? ;)

 

2 minutes ago, uncle.heavy said:

Actually, making not every weapon equally skillable under all circumstances adds tactical elements and makes choices more meaningful.

My suggestion doesn't skill every weapon "equally". You skill for certain aspects of a weapon. It still doesn't make much sense to skill a hunting rifle for firerate. Or a shotgun for accuracy.

And since many people are arguing it doesn't the effect of skilled VS non-skilled isn't that huge anyway (but it is with the current system), i'm not talking about e.g. fortitude giving a massive 50% less recoil per level, but maybe 5% or 10%... has to be balanced of course. But it affects EVERY weapon. If your prefered weapon is a shotgun, recoil might be irrelevant for you. But if you want your pistols more stable, this would be the way to go.

And if you are a spray and pray player anyway, and therfore use a M60 you are probably not interested in perception which might give you headshot bonus. But you are not forced into skilling fortitude to max it.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Liesel Weppen said:

I am not a min maxer... and it's not about preferring an AK over a hunting rifle, because you have only 1 point in fortitude but none in perception. But the skills kick in massively.

Yeah, but now assume the Z has 150hp.

Without skills 3 shots, with skills just 2. And that are just body hits.

 

Back to 100hp, but landing a headshot:

Without skills 2 shots, with just one point in base attribute X: one shot.

 

And there other dependencies i choose my weapon for. For clearing a poi a hunting rifle is very impractical. There i'd prefer an AK or a shotgun, even if it is weaker with my skills, but with further progression with ferrals and irradiateds an unskilled AK may be to weak soon. Assume having perception at "only" 8. That gives you freaking headshot damage of 270%, but absolutely nothing for an AK.

But the rifles from perception are not really efficient in most cases. Only because of that i dislike perception builds. Would be much better if it gives a headshot bonus to ALL weapons, but the other base attributes not.

 

Strange, I get a headshot damage of 270% for hunting rifle and 200% for an AK, both fairly freaking.

 

You must have some strange LBD version of the game 😁

 

 

 

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