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Is there a point to steel tools?


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When you can make steel tools, you are so close to getting power tools, it doesnt matter anymore.
The only benefit I see in steel tools are that they are quiet and serve a purpose for PvP.

Is there any other point to them at all?
Could they perhaps be cheapened in the sense they cost alot less steel relative to other recipies?
Steel tools at the minimum need to be findable sooner- due to the stamina nerfs they have taken. Chances are, iron will be more efficient for them and then at least they would serve a purpose before power tools if they could be found sooner no?

Im just flatly curious what the playerbase thinks. I havnt used steel tools intentionally since the stamina usage nerf. Mods or not, its just not worth it.

Edited by Pichii (see edit history)
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31 minutes ago, Pichii said:

Is there any other point to them at all?

Currently power tools (i assume you refer to e.g. auger instead of steel pickaxe?) are still faster and don't consume stamina. And because they don't consume stamina (besides they are still faster), it doesn't consume food. So less ressource drain when using an auger. They use fuel instead, but that's a completely different ressource.

If you think, food and stamina regen is easier to achieve then fuel.... then go with steel tools. Nobody forces you to use power tools. But the math still says power tools are more efficient.

I prefer using power tools, because fuel is absolutely cheap to get.

 

From what i read, this about to be changed. Power tools will use stamina in further versions. But i expect they will still use much less stamina, so there is still an advantage remaining.

Edited by Liesel Weppen (see edit history)
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It's heavily spec dependent, you need major investment in S.Rex for the stamina to stop making things miserable. I prefer speccing for mining, so I often use a low level steel pick over an iron pick; and if I just want to mine and chill, any steel pick over an auger.

 

I hate the poor control of the auger, constantly hitting things around whatever I'm trying to hit. With the steel pick I can land a constant stream of hits holding the button down from block to block, but the auger just paints the whole cave. I'll admit, I'm a bit OCD about my mines though, keeping them clean makes for easy navigation and gives a better idea of the structural integrity.

 

The auger is of course better in most ways, likely even at comparatively low levels; but I rarely spend the gas.

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36 minutes ago, theFlu said:

It's heavily spec dependent, you need major investment in S.Rex for the stamina to stop making things miserable. I prefer speccing for mining, so I often use a low level steel pick over an iron pick; and if I just want to mine and chill, any steel pick over an auger.

 

I hate the poor control of the auger, constantly hitting things around whatever I'm trying to hit. With the steel pick I can land a constant stream of hits holding the button down from block to block, but the auger just paints the whole cave. I'll admit, I'm a bit OCD about my mines though, keeping them clean makes for easy navigation and gives a better idea of the structural integrity.

 

The auger is of course better in most ways, likely even at comparatively low levels; but I rarely spend the gas.

Ill definately agree that its heavily spec dependant but in the wrong way.
It takes 6 perks to be good with an auger and as you mention, 15pt to be good with a pick. *Not counting raw stat increases like STR to 3, ect.
Stamina usage is probably a step in the right direction but not enough.
To be good with a pick is ALOT of perk point dedication whereas there isnt with the Aug.

When I build mines, Ill use the auger for the area clearing where accuracy doesnt matter but I still generally prefer iron picks for 'sculpting' because of stamina usage, ability to permanently power swing and reduced consumption of food relatively speaking and ability to mod it sooner.
I also really prefer the auger for late game stage modifications to base.

Edited by Pichii (see edit history)
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Heh, if madmole? I think it was?  Gets his way and everything breaks due to durability and cant be repaired but must be recrafted, I think this problem combined with stamina nerfs would actually fix this right on up.

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9 minutes ago, Pichii said:

It takes 3 perks to be good with an auger and as you mention, 15pt to be good with a pick.

I'll mostly agree with the parts I didn't quote, and possibly with this one as well, but I don't get what you're saying here.. 3 pts vs 15pts, or three whole perks? I can only think of two.. miner69er and mother lode, those would be 10 points - as they're just as effective for the auger, and just as un/necessary.

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4 minutes ago, theFlu said:

I'll mostly agree with the parts I didn't quote, and possibly with this one as well, but I don't get what you're saying here.. 3 pts vs 15pts, or three whole perks? I can only think of two.. miner69er and mother lode, those would be 10 points - as they're just as effective for the auger, and just as un/necessary.

I did bad maths beforehand and edited the first post.
Its roughly 6pts, lvl 3 in miner and the tools one and youre a 'decent' miner with an auger.
Im sure there are a couple points you can save with sexual rex not being maxed but, its still ALOT more points needed than using an auger.

I do alot of min/max on stats cuz I like to dedicate to the INT tree and only get the minimum needed mining abilities just so theres something for me to do besides sit by the fire all day. xD

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When you like to sneak through POI's you definitiv don't like auger.

But when you are a miner which wear heavy armor anyway, you will use your auger as mellee weapon at POI too.

 

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I think it also depends on the exact task and the exact task of your steel tool.  With the right perks, you can 1-shot soil blocks with a steel shovel. At that point, it's not that much slower than an auger.  The amount of "overkill" the steel tool gets on your block type will also affect how "efficient" you are with it.  If you are doing 249 dmg to a 250 blocks, an auger would be WAY better, but if you do 125 dmg, it wouldn't make as big a difference. (Assuming the difference in damage is based on perks alone).

 

Where the auger really start to shine is when you complete The Art of Mining perk books. Getting a 20% chance to 1-shot any ore benefits way more from a fast hitting tool like the auger.  But that only affects ore, so if you are just digging plain rocks or soil, again we're back at the amount of overkill you deal on the block.

 

And all of the above assume stamina doesn't become the bottleneck. (I pretty much always spec heavily as a miner, so I'm not sure/can't remember how bad that can get for non-miners).

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Yeah iron tools to motorized for non-miners, skipping steel tools. Non-miners generally have no reason to fully spec sexy rex, only 2 levels needed for iron tools. However, if you are primarily spec’ing in mining, 4 in sexy rex, then steel tools make sense.

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8 hours ago, Star69 said:

Yeah iron tools to motorized for non-miners, skipping steel tools. Non-miners generally have no reason to fully spec sexy rex, only 2 levels needed for iron tools. However, if you are primarily spec’ing in mining, 4 in sexy rex, then steel tools make sense.

 

If you melee and wear heavy armor then you'll need all the help you can get, regardless of what tools you use.

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I use steel tools; I'm patient and usually have 3-4/4 Sexy T and grow and cook my own foods and drink.  I leave the Fuel to the half dozen 4X4 Trucks and generators my group uses to excess.  Usually don't do Solar Power because nobody wants to get 9-10 int and 5/5 Better barter to buy them.

 

Plus Auger attracts too many Zombies on Survivalist diff server at twice the MOB size....

 

Edited by Ripflex (see edit history)
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I feel like the issue is more about the ease and abundance of Fuel in the game. This reduces any meaningful choices a player might have when deciding where to spend their fuel. Make fuel more scarce or difficult to obtain increases the competition for it's uses.

My suggestion on a possible fix: Make it so that you can only craft Gas Can at a special crafting station that can't be player crafted but only found in the wild. This promotes more exploration (there by distance to the crafting station matters for fuel cost), gives non-motorized tools more incentive to be used for smaller projects, and potentially gives a player an additional strategic place to defend.
 

And it couldn't technically be a new type of POI (like a Tier 5 Oil Refinery thing).

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If more bad things happened from using power tools then there would also be another trade-off.  It used to be that using power tools would guarantee a steady stream of screamers and their hordes but that seems to have been broken for a while now.  And, as mentioned, fuel needs to be re-balanced.  For starters, oil shale needs to be a LOT rarer than it is now.  And I mean like 1% of what it is now.  And there needs to be more uses for fuel to compete with tools and vehicles.  Just having to choose between running that chainsaw to cut wood or use it to fuel a the motorcycle into town for a supply run.  That would add something good to the game, in my opinion.

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3 hours ago, Maharin said:

If more bad things happened from using power tools then there would also be another trade-off.  It used to be that using power tools would guarantee a steady stream of screamers and their hordes but that seems to have been broken for a while now.  And, as mentioned, fuel needs to be re-balanced.  For starters, oil shale needs to be a LOT rarer than it is now.  And I mean like 1% of what it is now.  And there needs to be more uses for fuel to compete with tools and vehicles.  Just having to choose between running that chainsaw to cut wood or use it to fuel a the motorcycle into town for a supply run.  That would add something good to the game, in my opinion.

stop giving roland and madmole  ideas <.< game is hard enough as is 😛

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6 hours ago, DaChibii said:

I feel like the issue is more about the ease and abundance of Fuel in the game. This reduces any meaningful choices a player might have when deciding where to spend their fuel. Make fuel more scarce or difficult to obtain increases the competition for it's uses

Agreed.  This is the main problem right here which is why steel tools become pretty much obsolete so fast.

 

You start getting steel tools at about the same time as you can get an auger, and by the time you get an auger you've already saved up enough fuel to run your own depot. Why use a steel pickaxe when you can use an auger and get twice as much, twice as fast with no real repercussions.

 

Hell, augers even make both the lock picks and the lock picking skill absolutely the most pointless item and skill in the game. It's easier and faster to break safes with an auger.  Plus, it saves one less space in your inventory. You combine the auger with the book that lets you deal more damage to safes and you don't need a lock pick anymore or the dumb ass lock picking skill.

 

2 hours ago, Maharin said:

It used to be that using power tools would guarantee a steady stream of screamers and their hordes but that seems to have been broken for a while now. 

 

It's not necessarily broken.  I get A LOT of screamers when mining with an auger.  ALOT. 

 

The problem is there's nothing to dissuade from using the Auger because at that stage you already have an abundance of fuel and most likely already have a robo turret or two on hand.  Hell even with a robotic sledge, which you can get pretty early in-game.  I dig a hole straight down about 10 blocks before digging out and place a turret right at the bottom of the hole.  So when the screamers fall on their faces they start getting hit and are usually dead before they can even scream.


Another problem:  Screamers are WAY too weak.  Technically they should be one of the toughest standard Z's to kill.  This would also dissuade people from using the auger as much and make them rely more on steel tools while also acting as another trade-off.

 

3 hours ago, Maharin said:

For starters, oil shale needs to be a LOT rarer than it is now.  And I mean like 1% of what it is now.  And there needs to be more uses for fuel to compete with tools and vehicles.  Just having to choose between running that chainsaw to cut wood or use it to fuel a the motorcycle into town for a supply run.  That would add something good to the game, in my opinion.

Agreed.  Shale used to be like the gold.  Same with nitrate powder.  You would have to go into the desert to find it, for the most part. 

 

But now, if you find one resource and keep digging in that same spot then you will likely find almost every other resource you need.  For example, you see an Iron resource on the map and start digging, and before you know it you found enough coal, nitrate, lead, and stone to last a lifetime from that ONE spot.

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12 hours ago, DaChibii said:

And it couldn't technically be a new type of POI (like a Tier 5 Oil Refinery thing).

And where is the problem ?

Then player just would claim that POI and build their base around that refinery thing.

And when that POI was unique on the map, it would be a hugh conflict potential on multiplayer server.

So it maybe would be better to made a trader POI out of it, and the trader sell fuel and vehicle (parts).

 

Or just made the zombie attraction worse (like at previous version) then people which use auger/chainsaw need to deal much more with Z's and maybe need a guard.

 

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1 hour ago, Canute said:

And when that POI was unique on the map, it would be a hugh conflict potential on multiplayer server.

You say that like it's a bad thing, I see opportunity there:

- In PvE, shouldn't really be an issue, players should share the unique resource. Might need something to prevent messing it up, but that's griefing anyway.

- In PvP, having valuable points in the map will encourage interactions. Maybe have more types as well, like a steel mill, med bay, etc to avoid everyone fighting over that one thing, but it would make for nice natural objectives for each team on the server.

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Two problems:

Auger is too good at everything except noise. Perception is considered the weakest attribute because of sniper not getting the range it needs and the weak toothpick used for melee (only the latter can be fixed).

 

One partial fix for both: Make auger a perception tool, improved by a perception perk.

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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