Just my few observations if i may

[Archael]

My friends and me, loves to roleplay, especially in open-world games like 7days to die. Time to time we are playing next sessions, and play till 40 day or such.
But we have seen a problem.
We are trying to make a diverse and complementary team - scavenger, miner, builder, hunter, engineer, and so on. Most important archetypes are Miner, scavenger, and hunter/trapper.
nad there are problems:
1. To be a miner i need only few points in strenght, and i need two (three) skills.
 Scavenger needs only perception, and also two (or 4 but not neccesery) skills
But trapper needs fortitude (huntsman, living off the land), strenght (master chef), perception (animal tracker), (and agility for archery, and to make better knives)
Even if we would split hunter to one who hunts and one who cook, it is still too much mix of skills, and perks.
Can You move master chef to fortitude at least? I believe that ability to cook is more logical to be tied to this than to strenght.
2. Intelligence do almost nothing, so engineer archetype is a waste of skillpoints, only influence perks are worth to take, but intelligence have almost no high tier weapons... Maybe another skill in combat to strenghten batons?

(or change perk categories from attributes, to class, and give each class a weapon type for their use... but i believe this would need too much effort, and fanatical fans would hate this topic already, so its only a thought )

3. Experience gain is very unequal from various sourcess... Can option "share xp from kills" be changed to "share xp" instead? So that all activities would provide exp for all party members rather than only zombie kills? And make it to split exp, and not multiplicate it? So 400exp for 4 party members will give each one 100exp rather than 400?

Its all from me. Thanks all from reading

[Pichii]

5 hours ago, Archael said:

1. To be a miner i need only few points in strenght, and i need two (three) skills.
 Scavenger needs only perception, and also two (or 4 but not neccesery) skills
But trapper needs fortitude (huntsman, living off the land), strenght (master chef), perception (animal tracker), (and agility for archery, and to make better knives)
Even if we would split hunter to one who hunts and one who cook, it is still too much mix of skills, and perks.
Can You move master chef to fortitude at least? I believe that ability to cook is more logical to be tied to this than to strenght.
2. Intelligence do almost nothing, so engineer archetype is a waste of skillpoints, only influence perks are worth to take, but intelligence have almost no high tier weapons... Maybe another skill in combat to strenghten batons?

Personally, the way I handle this is by doing:
3pt str, max miner stats to 3 same for cooking and then dedicate to INT, this makes it so your 'homebody' feller can just craft to his hearts content while still being able to help gather. 3pt into food lets you craft all the good, easy to craft recipies thatll keep yall full. Use food books to finish it off to save perk points.

Your hunter should dual spec similarly, Percep and END. Percep is great for hunting efficently and it also gains you access to explosives as well as gunpowder stack crafting. The devs dont want so many great perks tucked into END/STR (It was recently changed AWAY from how you ask because Endurance was too loaded with good perks)

INT is the best tree in the game in my opinion. Its just hard to get turrets for. If yall like gathering, yeah, int is a bit pointless in a sense of gathering.
However, int gets you more dukes and rewards for quests not to mention the ability to craft all your own parts like electrical parts, mechanical parts, ect so you dont have to go out and gather- probably not good for what yall are trying to do.

Most of the builds in this game take till GS90 to complete in any sense of the word.
Use skill books to fill the slots you dont wana use points for- everything has a book.

Also, if you quit playing by day 40, youre not even experiencing the game as it doesnt really take of till GS90. Thats when the game actually starts.

 

Poor formatting on that last post, my apologies. I didnt notice till it was too late.

INT weapons are all about CC and damage over time. Not 1shot wonders like the rest of the builds.

Day 40 is the first minimum where you can see demolishers. Like, yall aint even really playing the game if youre restarting so often.

Yall probably dont even know what a boss zombie is or how insane they are when feral.  Dont see them till around GS90 with the radiated.

And im not trying to diss your Role play. Just suggesting you keep playing till at least day 60. Youll probably find alot more use for alot of the other perks if you do tho.

Also, just to elaborate on how OP int turrets are, I can solo defend a single position on day 90, GS 120 with just 2 junk turrets level 1 and 8,000 rounds of ammo. (Junk turrets only use 4raw iron per bullet.)
I gain an avg of 3-5 levels per blood moon.

[Pichii]

(PS: expand the quote section to read the rest of my message) -oops. lol

 

 

The benefit of having 1 player never use brass/bullets unless the situation is extreme gives your party an extreme advantage in bullet use and time spent farming brass (dukes) for bullets.

[Lord Shakaka]

Engineers are not really meant to fight like the other classes you mentioned.  They are also not useless since they will make the other classes have an easier time.  Engineers basically would be like a support class.  They are they builder of bases.  Give you automated defenses and horde management options.  Junk turrets don't require brass for their ammo so you can replenish them easy if your Miner can get enough iron to feed them.  That being said, the engineer is not totally defenseless .  They can place a turret to assist in killing zombies or hunting.  You can easily kill a bear just with a junk turret down and a rifle.  Just because its not in their skill tree doesn't mean the rifle is not something they would occasionally use.

 

For the Trapper, you can fill in some of the cooking by recipes looting instead of getting master chef.  Still would get at least one point in each of living off the land and master chef just to get things going.  You can try to loot them via buried quest or just buying them from the trader when available.   You can also role play them more so by just having the stew recipes or such.  Trapper (hunters) will have to decide what weapons they wish to be specialists in.  They do not necessarily need to be experts in rifles and bows.  They can be in one or the other and be fine.  When you wish to be pro at all weapons then you need to play for many more days so it can be achieved.  You don't become an expert in just a couple of weeks.

 

Both of the classes you specified require more time investment to be professionals at their fields.  Which sometimes requires more than day 40 to accomplish depending on how long your days are set.  I usually play what you would call the engineer even in solo games with a couple of other points here and there.  When playing multiplayer, it seems very weak from the start.  But once you start having a base with some of the modern conveniences it suddenly makes every day seem a whole lot easier for the group.  I have a feeling that you stop at day 40 because some of the players that do not require as many points for their classes would start to get bored because they already achieved their goals.  Perhaps the Miner needs to dabble in demolition like dynamite.  Scavenger can dabble in grease monkey to make say a minibike.  There are ways to roleplay to extend their "Character Class"  that still fit with the theme and let the other classes that take more skill points reach his / her top tier. 

 

 

[katarynna]

Why does the hunter also have to be the cook?

 

Many miners back in the day worked their claims solo or duo, and definitely did their own cooking. Since your miner has to invest in strength anyways, he should definitely be the cook and you can justify that even from a role-playing perspective.

 

Your hunter would need investment in both fortitude and perception if he wanted both animal tracker and huntsman, true. And he should be the one tending the farm since lotl is in fortitude already.

 

No reason for agility though, as your scavenger could loot improved knives and if you have an int-focused player they should have no problems buying much better knives from the trader.

 

As for int being useless in a group setting, i strongly disagree. Others have mentioned the base defenses, which more than make up for his personal decreased killing potential. He also can craft those things faster and using less resources. Better barter 4 unlocks the chance for crucibles to appear in the traders' secret stash. I personally have never gone 2 trader resets at bb4 without getting offered a crucible. He can also sell things for much more and buy things for much less. It also improves both the tier and quality of weapons/tools/armor offered in the secret stash. And if you do quests, daring adventurer is amazing once fully perked.

[Liesel Weppen]

On 1/23/2021 at 6:12 PM, Archael said:

nad there are problems:
1. To be a miner i need only few points in strenght, and i need two (three) skills.
 Scavenger needs only perception, and also two (or 4 but not neccesery) skills

Totally agree here, the skill/perk system 7d2d currently uses is ... bad.

 

It forces you into various stuff.

Either spezialice into one of the 5 skills, or waste a loot of skillpoints for things you don't need by cross-skilling.

With that it forces your playstyle to use what your skill allows you to do. Strength-build because miner, but want to use light armor anyway? - bad idea

It forces ranged weapons to be combined with specific melee weapons. Want to use a shotgun but a machete in melee instead of clubs? - bad idea

 

In multiplayer with 5 people, best one is everybody picks one base skill. But that again ties tasks together. The miner has also to be your cook. The hunter has also to be the farmer. Your builder has also to be your trader...

And it forces weapon combinations to these tasks also. Want to play miner, accept that you have to be also the cook, no matter you like it or not, but want to play sniper rifles instead of shotguns? - bad idea

That's a bad idea because the shotgun is not only buffed by the boomstick perk, which you don't need to skill if you don't like shotguns anyway. It's a bad idea because the strength-skill buffs shotguns and clubs. You need to put points in there to skill miner. But then not using a shotgun or a club means all these points have absolutely no use for your build.

 

There is really not much room for doing what you really want without wasting a lot of points. I already told that multiple times with A18 already...

 

[meganoth]

Practically a hunter needs only one point in animal tracker to find the small game, the other animals can be easily spotted by the players own eyes (which is, on the other hand, a limitation of the perk that needs to be fixed some time). As a hunter I would just go full huntsman and leave the cooking to someone else.

 

I agree that having animal tracker and huntsman in different trees is bad design and I think they eventually have to be combined.

 

Look at ancient tribes, the hunters did not cook. While trappers were usually loners (AFAIK) who had to to everything anyway. If you want to play a trapper, play SP 😉

[Archael]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

Practically a hunter needs only one point in animal tracker to find the small game, the other animals can be easily spotted by the players own eyes (which is, on the other hand, a limitation of the perk that needs to be fixed some time). As a hunter I would just go full huntsman and leave the cooking to someone else.

 

I agree that having animal tracker and huntsman in different trees is bad design and I think they eventually have to be combined.

 

Look at ancient tribes, the hunters did not cook. While trappers were usually loners (AFAIK) who had to to everything anyway. If you want to play a trapper, play SP 😉

But still, hunter need both fortitude for huntsman and living of the land, and agility for archery and knives (also light armor despite huge fortitude investment), also tracking would be nice, but okay, lets pretend its perk made for nothing, so our huntsman dont need it, then it took 2 attributes. While miner needs just strenght, and with this he has meele (not even clubs - miner 69er and axes is enough) and ranged weapons, mining (because its miner), armor, and he even can cook.
Scavenger needs only perception, unless one wants to have more fancy gamplay.

[meganoth]

Why is living of the land aka farming the domain of the hunter?

 

 

[PoloPoPo]

What players often tend to forget is that you can take on any role you want even without investing any skill points in anything. You should not see the skill system as a limiting factor for what you can / should do and how you should play the game. Rather more the skill system supports you and the way you play the game to some degree.

 

You can be a master chef by only finding and buying recipes, you don't have to spend any skill point on that. But of course you can spend skill points on that as well to support that playstyle.

 

Want to be the hunter in your team? Make sure your team mates let you pick up appropriate gear then, go out hunting big game at night and there you go. You don't have to spend any skill points for being a hunter but you can do so to improve and support your abilities.

 

Especially in a big team you should be able to loot enough recipes / books / gear and stuff and distribute that among your team members according to their assigned role. Skill points can make your life easier and your playstyle more effective but they aren't a must have. All you want to do works without skill points as well. Don't let skill points limit you!

[Liesel Weppen]

11 minutes ago, PoloPoPo said:

You can be a master chef by only finding and buying recipes, you don't have to spend any skill point on that. But of course you can spend skill points on that as well to support that playstyle.

Yep, you can do that. But there are only very limited skillbooks that improve your weapon handling, or armor types and other things.

Also there are misc skills that can almost not be avoided at all, like sex rex, miner 69er, ... Lotl also does not work with skill books. Lotl and mining can be done without those skills, but without them it is just pita.

And the other side is, that the skills, eg. strength for using shotgun MASSIVELY buffs shotguns. They are not a little improvement, they are enormous. You'd even prefer using a Lvl1 shotgun with maxed skills, than using a lvl6 shotgun without skills.

[Archael]

22 hours ago, Liesel Weppen said:

Yep, you can do that. But there are only very limited skillbooks that improve your weapon handling, or armor types and other things.

Also there are misc skills that can almost not be avoided at all, like sex rex, miner 69er, ... Lotl also does not work with skill books. Lotl and mining can be done without those skills, but without them it is just pita.

And the other side is, that the skills, eg. strength for using shotgun MASSIVELY buffs shotguns. They are not a little improvement, they are enormous. You'd even prefer using a Lvl1 shotgun with maxed skills, than using a lvl6 shotgun without skills.

And at top of that - with shotgus skill You can make better shotguns, so even without luck with finding better one, You wont end with lvl1.
Also - why playerX should cook if i'm doing that more efficiently?

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, Archael said:

And at top of that - with shotgus skill You can make better shotguns, so even without luck with finding better one, You wont end with lvl1.
Also - why playerX should cook if i'm doing that more efficiently?

 

Maybe because he wants to roleplay? The same reason someone wants to play a trapper instead of just taking the perks that bring the most advantage

 

The game sort of suggests 5 role models/classes with the attributes. Those are cheap to get but the game does not prevent arbitrary combinations at a greater perk point cost.

 

One big reason is balance as single perks are definitely not balanced! But attributes are supposed to be (fun fact: They are not at the moment 😉. It's a work in progress)

 

 

 

[Archael]

6 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Maybe because he wants to roleplay? The same reason someone wants to play a trapper instead of just taking the perks that bring the most advantage

 

The game sort of suggests 5 role models/classes with the attributes. Those are cheap to get but the game does not prevent arbitrary combinations at a greater perk point cost.

 

One big reason is balance as single perks are definitely not balanced! But attributes are supposed to be (fun fact: They are not at the moment 😉. It's a work in progress)

 

 

 

1. Yes, but still, if one character is trained chef (strenght), and one is self-taught cook (recipe books), its okay to roleplay, it is fun one one literally teach other one how to cook, and he do it more efficiently. But still - why this self-taught cook should cook if we have litteral master-chef?
2. And this is why i tell my thoughts - because its work in progress, and everything can be changed to play better.
Even if there will be no class perks but attribute based, i still think that cook is more connected to fortitude than strenght (best would be intelligence, but fortitude is better with other fortitude perks).
2. a) And intelligence stun-baton is extremally weak...
2. b) Skills should improve when being used, this would also solve some problems, but its not that important.
3. And exp share function - should share all exp through all party members... but really - divide, not multiply.