Current state of class system

[KingSlayerGM]

Hello everyone,
I would like to start this discussion about the class system to see what the players think about it.

 

 

TLDR I like the class system, it's fun and the skills are interesting, however I am restricted to the 5 classes designed by TFP and I cannot, for example, use spears and machine guns together.

 

 

Let me explain further. In the current system players are heavily encouraged to develop mostly 1 class. If they spread across multiple classes they will be weaker (at the beginning). As a matter of fact you need 23 levels to max out spears and snipers, but you need 42 levels to max out spears and machine guns. Sometimes a player might like to try a different combination, than the ones offered by the class system.

Let me give you some examples. If I like shotguns and clubs, well, i am in luck because there a class exactly for me. That class is Strength and I can just develop all my skills there. Now let's say that I like spears and machine guns. Ha! This time there is no class for me because spears are under Perception and machine guns are in Fortitude. My choices are to develop the skills in both classes, but it would be slower and I would be weaker, or to abandon the idea to develop a character with these 2 skills This is true for many other combinations. Sometimes I would like to get lucky looter and barterer in the same game, but they are under Perception and Intellect

 

Maybe there is some way you can come up to minimize this issue. Perhaps the skills and perks could be slightly reorganized. I would like to know what the players think about it.

 

Kind regards,
KingSlayerGM

[Maharin]

I don't think of it as a "class" system.  It's a skill system with trees.  You pick and choose skills as you need and want them depending on your circumstances.

 

As for "encouraged to develop mostly 1 class"... I don't think that's true.  For starters, I've never done it that way.  There are a whole lot of skills in various trees that I like to get started early on.  It has never affected my ability to survive nor have I ever felt weaker for it.  It's the old adage, "jack of all trades, master of none."  It works.

[KingSlayerGM]

9 minutes ago, Maharin said:

I don't think of it as a "class" system.  It's a skill system with trees.  You pick and choose skills as you need and want them depending on your circumstances.

 

As for "encouraged to develop mostly 1 class"... I don't think that's true.  For starters, I've never done it that way.  There are a whole lot of skills in various trees that I like to get started early on.  It has never affected my ability to survive nor have I ever felt weaker for it.  It's the old adage, "jack of all trades, master of none."  It works.

Developing spears and machine guns requires 42 levels, whereas spears and snipers only 23 levels. Isn't that unfair?

I understand your point: you can still buy what you want and you can survive. My point is: some choices of what you buy are slower than other as far as levels, shouldn't this be looked into?

[RipClaw]

If I want to use two attributes at the same time then I stop at level 7. With level 7 in the attribute you get up to level 4 in most skills. For some skills, level 7 is even enough to max out the skill.

[Maharin]

That depends on the other play considerations.  Snipers are single target skills, machine guns are multi-target.  Maybe that plays into the equation?

 

If this were truly a class system then you'd have a very valid point about balance, but it isn't.  There are a lot of other skills to consider, such as armor or crafting or stealth, to spread your points into.  I sincerely don't think that the devs expect anyone to focus solely on one stat line as a "class".   Nor do I think they expect you to aim for "machine guns #5" as a primary target.

 

Does it need tweaking?  For sure.  Is it imbalanced?  I honestly don't think it is significantly at all.

[BFT2020]

Typically, I start strong in 1-2 categories (for example, my current playthrough I am going Strength / Intelligence and getting the base stats up to 5/7 each and then into the perks I want; previous build I went Agility first) then branch out to other categories as needed.  I still am using machine guns and pistols even though the only range weapon in Strength is the shotgun.  I haven't found that not specializing in pistols / machine guns is hindering me in any way (I am currently at Day 47 on Survivalist).

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, KingSlayerGM said:

Developing spears and machine guns requires 42 levels, whereas spears and snipers only 23 levels. Isn't that unfair?

I understand your point: you can still buy what you want and you can survive. My point is: some choices of what you buy are slower than other as far as levels, shouldn't this be looked into?

Small nitpick. spears+snipers should be 26, not 23

[Kyonshi]

2 hours ago, KingSlayerGM said:

Hello everyone,
I would like to start this discussion about the class system to see what the players think about it.

 

 

TLDR I like the class system, it's fun and the skills are interesting, however I am restricted to the 5 classes designed by TFP and I cannot, for example, use spears and machine guns together.

 

 

Let me explain further. In the current system players are heavily encouraged to develop mostly 1 class. If they spread across multiple classes they will be weaker (at the beginning). As a matter of fact you need 23 levels to max out spears and snipers, but you need 42 levels to max out spears and machine guns. Sometimes a player might like to try a different combination, than the ones offered by the class system.

Let me give you some examples. If I like shotguns and clubs, well, i am in luck because there a class exactly for me. That class is Strength and I can just develop all my skills there. Now let's say that I like spears and machine guns. Ha! This time there is no class for me because spears are under Perception and machine guns are in Strength. My choices are to develop the skills in both classes, but it would be slower and I would be weaker, or to abandoned the idea to develop a character with these 2 skills This is true for many other combinations. Sometimes I would like to get lucky looter and barterer in the same game, but they are under Perception and Intellect

 

Maybe there is some way you can come up to minimize this issue. Perhaps the skills and perks could be slightly reorganized. I would like to know what the players think about it.

 

Kind regards,
KingSlayerGM

Those arent classes. Its attributes with skills and perks associated with them.

 

What you identify as an inherent flawed/unbalanced issue is something that personally interferes with your view of the game and its progression system, its not a fundamental problem that affects all players. It all depends on your point of view.

 

The usage of certain weapons is generally associated with an attribute that is mostly sollicitated for said weapons. Strength is logically associated with Clubs Sledgehammers. Agility is for Handguns, Knives and Archery. Stun Batons and Turrets are affected by Intelligence since, i guess, this device is way more complex to conceive than a simple blunt weapon.

 

To me, it mostly makes sense. Sure, Archery could rather be in Perception and Spears in Agility. Why are Machine Guns in Fortitude? Maybe because the constant shaking of such firearms require firm stamina over time? We can all discuss elements present in the game and where they should stand instead, but the Pimps had to cut and settle things at some point. This is the system they opted for, for now.

 

Spears/Snipers require less points than Spears/Machine Guns? Ok. Why is it a problem or something badly balanced? Maybe there's more points for Machine Guns because this is a weapon that ends up being intensively used during Blood Moons. Its also the type of firearm that's among the most efficients. Nobody uses Sniper guns and Spears during the most intense Blood Moons.

 

All in all, i dont see that the system in place restricts people from using whatever they want. The attributes/skills system suggests that we have to make choices and that's a fundamental element of design in all RPGs, which 7 Days To Die stands in.

[KingSlayerGM]

58 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Small nitpick. spears+snipers should be 26, not 23

I cannot check in the game now, but this perks calculator here says 23: http://www.jacksay.com/perks/

2 hours ago, RipClaw said:

If I want to use two attributes at the same time then I stop at level 7. With level 7 in the attribute you get up to level 4 in most skills. For some skills, level 7 is even enough to max out the skill.

That's a nice suggestion!

2 hours ago, Maharin said:

That depends on the other play considerations.  Snipers are single target skills, machine guns are multi-target.  Maybe that plays into the equation?

 

If this were truly a class system then you'd have a very valid point about balance, but it isn't.  There are a lot of other skills to consider, such as armor or crafting or stealth, to spread your points into.  I sincerely don't think that the devs expect anyone to focus solely on one stat line as a "class".   Nor do I think they expect you to aim for "machine guns #5" as a primary target.

 

Does it need tweaking?  For sure.  Is it imbalanced?  I honestly don't think it is significantly at all.

You are absolutely right, there are a lot of factors in the equation. Another one, for example, would be that snipers consume less ammo than machine guns. I mostly agree with you on everything. Sometimes I would just like to feel more free in my choice and not worry that I am buying stuff from different classes and therefore I would be slightly more at risk of not surviving.

[KingSlayerGM]

19 minutes ago, Kyonshi said:

Those arent classes. Its attributes with skills and perks associated with them.

 

What you identify as an inherent flawed/unbalanced issue is something that personally interferes with your view of the game and its progression system, its not a fundamental problem that affects all players. It all depends on your point of view.

 

The usage of certain weapons is generally associated with an attribute that is mostly sollicitated for said weapons. Strength is logically associated with Clubs Sledgehammers. Agility is for Handguns, Knives and Archery. Stun Batons and Turrets are affected by Intelligence since, i guess, this device is way more complex to conceive than a simple blunt weapon.

 

To me, it mostly makes sense. Sure, Archery could rather be in Perception and Spears in Agility. Why are Machine Guns in Fortitude? Maybe because the constant shaking of such firearms require firm stamina over time? We can all discuss elements present in the game and where they should stand instead, but the Pimps had to cut and settle things at some point. This is the system they opted for, for now.

 

Spears/Snipers require less points than Spears/Machine Guns? Ok. Why is it a problem or something badly balanced? Maybe there's more points for Machine Guns because this is a weapon that ends up being intensively used during Blood Moons. Its also the type of firearm that's among the most efficients. Nobody uses Sniper guns and Spears during the most intense Blood Moons.

 

All in all, i dont see that the system in place restricts people from using whatever they want. The attributes/skills system suggests that we have to make choices and that's a fundamental element of design in all RPGs, which 7 Days To Die stands in.

I understand the need of making a design choice and building a system, even if not perfect. Also I understand the division of perks into "groups" under the same skill. I'm not arguing if some perk should be in this category rather than that one, I'm just saying that sometimes I feel a bit restricted in my choice of how to develop my character. Yes, I can still buy any perk I want, but some combinations are cheaper that the others and I'm not sure that is a good thing.

My dream character would have the scavenging perks of perception, the influence perks of intellect and the machine gun of fortitude. But that would be a lot slower to get than something else all from the same class.

[falloutcloud]

I kinda understand where you're coming from. I honestly have my own opinion on how the perk system should be done but I am probably in the minority. I don't think weapons should be tied to an attribute. I think simply applying an ability increase across all weapons depending on the attribute would be better. For example, a perception perk increases your chance to critically hit with headshots for any weapon. Skills like Run & Gun and Flurry of Blows cover a range of weapons across all attributes and that's what I would like to see more. 

[Roland]

A cool mod would be a tool that let you reorganize the weapons into different attributes before starting the game—like Nitrogen but for the skill tree map instead of the world map. 

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, KingSlayerGM said:

I cannot check in the game now, but this perks calculator here says 23: http://www.jacksay.com/perks/

 

I first calculated by looking at the xml, but just now tried your website and even the website tells me 26.

 

 

1 hour ago, KingSlayerGM said:

I understand the need of making a design choice and building a system, even if not perfect. Also I understand the division of perks into "groups" under the same skill. I'm not arguing if some perk should be in this category rather than that one, I'm just saying that sometimes I feel a bit restricted in my choice of how to develop my character. Yes, I can still buy any perk I want, but some combinations are cheaper that the others and I'm not sure that is a good thing.

My dream character would have the scavenging perks of perception, the influence perks of intellect and the machine gun of fortitude. But that would be a lot slower to get than something else all from the same class.

Mainly I think the class system contributes to replayability and making sure most people really use each weapon once and get out of their comfort zone (if they keep playing the game). In A17 you had it that way and there was not enough reason to switch from your prefered weapon and other perks and so you put your points always into the same perks.

 

 

[Maharin]

2 hours ago, KingSlayerGM said:

You are absolutely right, there are a lot of factors in the equation. Another one, for example, would be that snipers consume less ammo than machine guns. I mostly agree with you on everything. Sometimes I would just like to feel more free in my choice and not worry that I am buying stuff from different classes and therefore I would be slightly more at risk of not surviving.

 

I would highly recommend that you not think of the trees as classes.  A class in my mind would be a set of skills (not stats) at specific levels, which could span multiple stat lines.  And with the way this game progresses, you might legitimately be considered one "class" at lower levels and another at higher levels simply because of the order in which you purchase your skills.

 

Again, I just don't see this game as a class based game.  It's more like Ultima Online, if anyone remembers that game. 

[hiemfire]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

I first calculated by looking at the xml, but just now tried your website and even the website tells me 26.

It isn't presenting the reward points for completing the tutorial quests... 

Never mind, they changed how it was presented from their A18 version. Instead of having to add levels and then spend it just calcs level based on what was spent.

[KingSlayerGM]

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

I first calculated by looking at the xml, but just now tried your website and even the website tells me 26.

Are we talking about the same skills? I'm talking about perception + dead eye + javelin master.

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

Mainly I think the class system contributes to replayability and making sure most people really use each weapon once and get out of their comfort zone (if they keep playing the game). In A17 you had it that way and there was not enough reason to switch from your prefered weapon and other perks and so you put your points always into the same perks.

This is a good point

3 hours ago, falloutcloud said:

I kinda understand where you're coming from. I honestly have my own opinion on how the perk system should be done but I am probably in the minority. I don't think weapons should be tied to an attribute. I think simply applying an ability increase across all weapons depending on the attribute would be better. For example, a perception perk increases your chance to critically hit with headshots for any weapon. Skills like Run & Gun and Flurry of Blows cover a range of weapons across all attributes and that's what I would like to see more. 

I would love this actually!

[meganoth]

7 hours ago, KingSlayerGM said:

Are we talking about the same skills? I'm talking about perception + dead eye + javelin master.

This is a good point

I would love this actually!

Now I get it. You were talking about levels with the "23", but perk points with the "42". I was talking about perk points.