Exploits.

[MonkCrimson]

So i'm playing the game for about 50 hours now and i always come across exploits that i can use to make

blood moons a walk in the park , but to be honest i like it better when survival is not easy.

 

1) I can do miracles with wooden bars , i just go to a large POI and at an open area i create a floor of wooden bars ,

the zombies then are just wondering underneath and i either kill them taking my time or i do nothing and wait.

It would be nice to not have bars horizontally , or maybe make them so they brake when you step on them.

 

2) Just fortify you doors , make multiple layers of doors and iron bars so you can shoot the zombies that stack up knocking at the doors.

They really love doors .

 

3) I also don't like that you can carry a bunch of wooden frames and you can go wherever you want with them , i would make wooden frames to break when you step on them and you would have to double upgrade them to make them possible to walk on .

 

I would really want the developers to see this , if there is a better way to achieve this please let me know.

 

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL !

[meganoth]

Here is wikipedias definition of "exploit":

In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, speed or level design etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.

 

There were and are a lot of real exploits in the game, but the examples you cite have never been portrayed by the developers as exploits, i.e. things they want to fix. Except maybe example 3, where devs seem to have mixed feelings about it but consider the advantages for building more important than the escape qualities of the wooden frames.

 

A lot of new players are not as inventive as you and some even complain about the difficulty. The vanilla game is intended by the devs as a smooth entry level for beginners while veterans should use configs and mods to change the game to their liking.

 

I already played a mod that prevented nerd poling with wooden frames (i.e. going up by jumping on concurrently placed wooden frames). It hindered a lot while building. There also were ideas about making the nerd poling only work while building, not sure if such a mod already exists.

 

 

[SheeleMara]

 Speaking of exploits, do hatch elevators still work or did they finally patch them out? 

 

 EDIT: Nevermind I remember that they did. 

[MonkCrimson]

18 hours ago, meganoth said:

Here is wikipedias definition of "exploit":

In video games, an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, speed or level design etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.

 

There were and are a lot of real exploits in the game, but the examples you cite have never been portrayed by the developers as exploits, i.e. things they want to fix. Except maybe example 3, where devs seem to have mixed feelings about it but consider the advantages for building more important than the escape qualities of the wooden frames.

 

A lot of new players are not as inventive as you and some even complain about the difficulty. The vanilla game is intended by the devs as a smooth entry level for beginners while veterans should use configs and mods to change the game to their liking.

 

I already played a mod that prevented nerd poling with wooden frames (i.e. going up by jumping on concurrently placed wooden frames). It hindered a lot while building. There also were ideas about making the nerd poling only work while building, not sure if such a mod already exists.

 

 

I agree , and i understand that most of people have not wasted their lives at games such as me , and they struggle sometimes with the game .

My inner complain is ( because i like the game alot ) that i could stuggle to survive , and even if i push the difficulty to the highest , i can still find ways to avoid the 

danger and the threat of a blood moon .

I did name them exploits because i would never believe that the above mentioned are ways that the devs wanted their game to be played. ( there are alot more exploits as i call them that i did not mention. )

 

Anyways good points you have there , my pain is less i guess , oh and happy new year o/ .

[meganoth]

Happy new year.

 

In an earlier alpha the damage bonus zombies give each other when together was a bit higher than it is today. Generally loot is much too high for experienced players, that can already be changed in the options. And there is hope that they will include an option to increase zombie numbers eventually.

 

Decreasing HPs of blocks commonly used in POIs, removing steel bars completely and/or increasing zombie cop spit damage could also be a way to make taking over a POI less straightforward.

 

Zombie AI is still worked on, if you see a notorious case of zombies running around without hitting on blocks you could record a video and post a bug report. In general they should attack blocks. Yesterday I saw a case where zombies who couldn't reach me were running endlessly in a circle instead of hitting blocks, that is surely something considered an AI bug by TFP, they just need a good bug report to replicate it.

 

Meanwhille there is a mod that hopefully has some of those changes already: https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/22254-7-years-to-die-survivor-desolate-interloper-exile-survivor-v116-a193/

 

[MonkCrimson]

On 1/1/2021 at 2:37 PM, meganoth said:

Happy new year.

 

In an earlier alpha the damage bonus zombies give each other when together was a bit higher than it is today. Generally loot is much too high for experienced players, that can already be changed in the options. And there is hope that they will include an option to increase zombie numbers eventually.

 

Decreasing HPs of blocks commonly used in POIs, removing steel bars completely and/or increasing zombie cop spit damage could also be a way to make taking over a POI less straightforward.

 

Zombie AI is still worked on, if you see a notorious case of zombies running around without hitting on blocks you could record a video and post a bug report. In general they should attack blocks. Yesterday I saw a case where zombies who couldn't reach me were running endlessly in a circle instead of hitting blocks, that is surely something considered an AI bug by TFP, they just need a good bug report to replicate it.

 

Meanwhille there is a mod that hopefully has some of those changes already: https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/22254-7-years-to-die-survivor-desolate-interloper-exile-survivor-v116-a193/

 

Because in games and at hardware i'm good but at software i suck big time , 

i don't know how and where to go to install this mod , i'm interested in it .

 

[meganoth]

33 minutes ago, MonkCrimson said:

Because in games and at hardware i'm good but at software i suck big time , 

i don't know how and where to go to install this mod , i'm interested in it .

 

Usualy the author of the mod explains what to do with it. Most mods are just a zip file with one folder in it called "Mods". If that is the case and you play SP, just copy that folder into the main directory of the game. Steam tells you where that is: Manage->Broswe local files

 

When you upgrade to a new alpha, remember to remove the Mods folder again (or install a newer version of the mod). Steam does not automatically remove the folder.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

On 12/31/2020 at 8:52 AM, MonkCrimson said:

So i'm playing the game for about 50 hours now

Just... so you reached midgame already.

 

On 12/31/2020 at 8:52 AM, MonkCrimson said:

1) I can do miracles with wooden bars , i just go to a large POI and at an open area i create a floor of wooden bars ,

We do that too, but with larger bloodmoons Zs pile up and hit them, cops destroy them by spitting on them (vultures do also if they can reach them). Exploding cops and later demolishers also destroy them.

 

 

On 12/31/2020 at 8:52 AM, MonkCrimson said:

2) Just fortify you doors , make multiple layers of doors and iron bars so you can shoot the zombies that stack up knocking at the doors.

They really love doors .

May work early, but i'm pretty sure that won't work in later game.

 

Imho those two are no exploits, that's called cheesing the game. And i stay at my opinion: It's the player that does it wrong. If you don't like that, don't do it. All of my co-players know how to trick the AI in running in circles and make bloodmoons just like pigeon shooting. Because that's no fun we simply decided to don't use that "exploit".

 

On 12/31/2020 at 8:52 AM, MonkCrimson said:

3) I also don't like that you can carry a bunch of wooden frames and you can go wherever you want with them , i would make wooden frames to break when you step on them and you would have to double upgrade them to make them possible to walk on .

Nerd poling is the same thing. Don't do it, if you don't like it. I know for some people it's hard to not do things they know the COULD do, but effectively you are destroying yuor own game experience with that, otherwise you wouldn't complain about it.

As meganoth already said, there is a conflict with building, as you need temporary frameworks for building. And i also saw a mod already that disabled placing blocks while jumping. With that you can't nerd pole straight up but still build stairways.

E.g. in Empyrion this is solved by the player can launch a drone that is able to build. But that imho does absolutely not fit into the feeling of 7d2d. And in empyrion people also complain about the drone, because it can also fight (even if it is one-shot killed by everything, but respawns immediately) and it can be abused to "look around corners".

[MonkCrimson]

18 hours ago, Liesel Weppen said:

Just... so you reached midgame already.

 

We do that too, but with larger bloodmoons Zs pile up and hit them, cops destroy them by spitting on them (vultures do also if they can reach them). Exploding cops and later demolishers also destroy them.

 

 

May work early, but i'm pretty sure that won't work in later game.

 

Imho those two are no exploits, that's called cheesing the game. And i stay at my opinion: It's the player that does it wrong. If you don't like that, don't do it. All of my co-players know how to trick the AI in running in circles and make bloodmoons just like pigeon shooting. Because that's no fun we simply decided to don't use that "exploit".

 

Nerd poling is the same thing. Don't do it, if you don't like it. I know for some people it's hard to not do things they know the COULD do, but effectively you are destroying yuor own game experience with that, otherwise you wouldn't complain about it.

As meganoth already said, there is a conflict with building, as you need temporary frameworks for building. And i also saw a mod already that disabled placing blocks while jumping. With that you can't nerd pole straight up but still build stairways.

E.g. in Empyrion this is solved by the player can launch a drone that is able to build. But that imho does absolutely not fit into the feeling of 7d2d. And in empyrion people also complain about the drone, because it can also fight (even if it is one-shot killed by everything, but respawns immediately) and it can be abused to "look around corners".

I don't feel like i'm destroying my game experience , i just want to feel the need for survival . If you are scared about what's coming and you try to prepare, you kind of forget you are in a game but with these things it kind of ruins the immersion.

Also for the first one i said about using wooden bars , last night i played, same thing happened , zombies just run around without even hitting blocks , and i don't think that this is what developers want.

I've never recorded gameplay before but this time i may try it , I also did a mission were i had to kill some female zombies and when they spawned i jumped on a  nearby rock ( the ones that usually pop out of the ground ) using one frame block , and when i was up i removed it , zombies where not even going for the rock i was stepping on , instead they were hitting some trees that were like 7-8 blocks away from me , i'm talking about really close quarter situation , and i could stay there for ever .

Isn't it obvious that they should go at least for the 2blocks high rock that i was standing on ? I'm trying to help here , because i like the game , i'm not trying to diss it by any reason . Make it better !

18 hours ago, meganoth said:

Usualy the author of the mod explains what to do with it. Most mods are just a zip file with one folder in it called "Mods". If that is the case and you play SP, just copy that folder into the main directory of the game. Steam tells you where that is: Manage->Broswe local files

 

When you upgrade to a new alpha, remember to remove the Mods folder again (or install a newer version of the mod). Steam does not automatically remove the folder.

 

Thanks i think i get it now . Cheers

[RipClaw]

3 hours ago, MonkCrimson said:

I've never recorded gameplay before but this time i may try it , I also did a mission were i had to kill some female zombies and when they spawned i jumped on a  nearby rock ( the ones that usually pop out of the ground ) using one frame block , and when i was up i removed it , zombies where not even going for the rock i was stepping on , instead they were hitting some trees that were like 7-8 blocks away from me , i'm talking about really close quarter situation , and i could stay there for ever .

Isn't it obvious that they should go at least for the 2blocks high rock that i was standing on ? I'm trying to help here , because i like the game , i'm not trying to diss it by any reason . Make it better !

If a zombie doesn't see a path to you then it will attack the weakest blocks in the area and the trees are the weakest blocks in the area.

 

For you it is obvious that the zombie should go for the rock because you are a human and have human intelligence but the zombie is controlled by an algorithm and this sometimes leads to irrational behavior. Developers cannot consider all situations. In games with a static map this is much easier because the designers can remove possible obstacles for the AI.

 

[MonkCrimson]

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

If a zombie doesn't see a path to you then it will attack the weakest blocks in the area and the trees are the weakest blocks in the area.

 

For you it is obvious that the zombie should go for the rock because you are a human and have human intelligence but the zombie is controlled by an algorithm and this sometimes leads to irrational behavior. Developers cannot consider all situations. In games with a static map this is much easier because the designers can remove possible obstacles for the AI.

 

So they don't try to improve AI anymore ? Is it ready ? 

Of course not , they will try to do their best . This is what i'm trying to do .

Ok so let's see , so the AI of a zombie is trying to find a path to guide the zombie to the player . The player is on a rock that the zombie can not jump on because of the height .

1) If the AI guide the zombie to the players place ONLY horizontally and at the moment it hits an obstacle and there is no other way to go, then make the zombie to hit that obstacle and not the weakest block nearby which is a tree that has nothing to do with the situation and will not lead the zombie at the player at the end .

2) If the AI can calculate the path , block by block , and there is a spot were that path is going 2 blocks vertically , make the zombie to attack those 2 blocks and after that the AI can calculate again and see if the path is clear .

3) If there is an algorithm , why the zombies prefer to attack a beefy vault door instead of a weakest spot , since the AI is already coded to find weak blocks ?

 

I feel like if only those  simple ideas are impossible to implement , then we are not talking about an algorithm but something way more simple.

I know that these things are not easy and are very complicated sometimes , trust me i know . But i also know that if you want to make something of value you have to work harder , test things , spend alot of time , but today people ignore necessary stuff and they go straight for polishing . ( The last one refers to all gaming companies out there . )

I opened a threat to discuss about possible solutions and improvements , but everyone seems to be showing up to tell me that i should not talk about these things , should i stop this and make another one to say how awesome is the game to attract more costumers ?

[RipClaw]

3 hours ago, MonkCrimson said:

So they don't try to improve AI anymore ? Is it ready ? 

From what I've read no major changes are being made to the AI. Only minor adjustments as long as they don't cost too much CPU power.
 

3 hours ago, MonkCrimson said:

Of course not , they will try to do their best . This is what i'm trying to do .

What they do first and foremost is to create a game that fits their vision. This includes providing an easy way to modify the game.

 

3 hours ago, MonkCrimson said:

Ok so let's see , so the AI of a zombie is trying to find a path to guide the zombie to the player . The player is on a rock that the zombie can not jump on because of the height .

1) If the AI guide the zombie to the players place ONLY horizontally and at the moment it hits an obstacle and there is no other way to go, then make the zombie to hit that obstacle and not the weakest block nearby which is a tree that has nothing to do with the situation and will not lead the zombie at the player at the end .

2) If the AI can calculate the path , block by block , and there is a spot were that path is going 2 blocks vertically , make the zombie to attack those 2 blocks and after that the AI can calculate again and see if the path is clear .

3) If there is an algorithm , why the zombies prefer to attack a beefy vault door instead of a weakest spot , since the AI is already coded to find weak blocks ?

This is, more or less, how the AI was programmed until Alpha 16. That was very easy to exploit.

 

By the way, the reason why the AI attacks the vault door is that doors are only rated with half of their HP by the AI. The zombie attacking doors instead of punching through the wall is a behavior intended by the developers.

The problem here is that you have a very specific situation here and you are only looking for a solution for this specific situation. What you don't take into account is the general impact of this and you also neglect that case-by-case considerations usually increase CPU consumption.

 

3 hours ago, MonkCrimson said:

I feel like if only those  simple ideas are impossible to implement , then we are not talking about an algorithm but something way more simple.

You better ask fataal how "easy" it was to develop an AI that moves through a dynamic 3D world without getting stuck on every edge.
 

3 hours ago, MonkCrimson said:

I know that these things are not easy and are very complicated sometimes , trust me i know. But i also know that if you want to make something of value you have to work harder , test things , spend alot of time , but today people ignore necessary stuff and they go straight for polishing . ( The last one refers to all gaming companies out there . )

I doubt you know unless you work in game development. I work as a system administrator and therefore have a lot of interaction with software developers. Software development looks easier to outsiders than it really is. I have no doubt that the developers work hard on the game and invest a lot of time in testing. 

 

3 hours ago, MonkCrimson said:

I opened a threat to discuss about possible solutions and improvements , but everyone seems to be showing up to tell me that i should not talk about these things , should i stop this and make another one to say how awesome is the game to attract more costumers ?

Feel free to give your feedback, as we all do, but don't expect everyone to agree with your opinions.

The developers read the forum and take notes but they make their own decisions.
 

[MonkCrimson]

13 hours ago, RipClaw said:

Feel free to give your feedback, as we all do, but don't expect everyone to agree with your opinions.

The developers read the forum and take notes but they make their own decisions.

This is what i needed , i just want them to know things that their ''costumers'' experience , and then i will let the decision on them .

I also insist that the above are not opinions just feedback , if in order to fix the things i mentioned you must have a 6Ghz Cpu to run this then ofcourse i don't want it.

As for the knowledge of how hard is gaming development , i have a close friend that develops a game for years and i'm testing it every ones in a while , and i personally make machines out of scrap and i'm sure that i know how things can get complicated where you do not expect it .

 

Cheers.

[Irushian]

The exploits I would want fixed are true exploits that affect all PvP servers, where a player can use a door or a hatch to clip through the ground to see hidden bases and even fire at players through it. It's so easy to do that they have to be aware of it..

 

That's the biggest exploit I want to see gone -- remove the players ability to see (and pass) through blocks and keep it for admins that can clip through freely.

[MonkCrimson]

On 1/11/2021 at 2:10 AM, Irushian said:

The exploits I would want fixed are true exploits that affect all PvP servers, where a player can use a door or a hatch to clip through the ground to see hidden bases and even fire at players through it. It's so easy to do that they have to be aware of it..

 

That's the biggest exploit I want to see gone -- remove the players ability to see (and pass) through blocks and keep it for admins that can clip through freely.

I'm playing only single player so i'm not aware of the multiplayer issues wich may be bigger , sorry for that.