Firearm Magazine Concept

[nalal]

Alright, had a lot of coffee and came up with an interesting concept.

So there I was, staring at my M60 with a drum mag mod thinking "man, I like having a lot of bullets but what if I could have MORE bullets" when inspiration struck.

I started thinking about what it would be like to have just a belt that ran up to 200 rounds at once, then one thing lead to another and suddenly I realized there was a lot more to the concept.

MAGAZINES.

 

Overview:

The idea behind including magazines would be that it would use similar systems to those already in use in order to create a new and interesting mechanic that adds a bit more depth to ammo management than "Yeah I'll stack 2k rounds of 7.62 in my backpack".

In short, magazines would be craftable items which would be used in firearms that contain bullets.

 

Loading Magazines:

Loading magazines would function similarly to repairing, each round "repairing" X% of the magazine's "health" similarly to how X amount of gas counts to X% of a car's fuel tank.

Every time the weapon is fired, the magazine would lose that same amount of "health" perhaps even using the same function as the item degradation system.

To prevent too much complexity, there could be a radial menu that pops up if more than one type of a certain ammo exists in a player's inventory which would allow them to chose the correct type of munition to stuff into the mag.

In a bid to reduce the total amount of resources required to save magazine data to memory, magazines could be locked to a specific ammo type once that ammo is placed into it and unlocked once the ammo is removed/used, ammo type could then be stored as a simple ENUM value.

Loading would take a different amount of time based on the size of the mag, keeping smaller mags practical if a player is out scavenging for longer as they would take less time to load with scavenged ammo.

 

Using Magazines:

With there being several mags of varying capacity and "health", it raises the question, "What if I just want to reload the damn gun?".

Pressing reload could simply check for a magazine of equal capacity and load the most filled into the gun.

Holding reload currently brings up the ammo type wheel, this could be expanded so that instead of activating the button on the release of the reload key, a right click would bring up a second wheel that would list all available magazines in the player's inventory and their current ammo count, while releasing would simply grab the first largest and most filled magazine.

 

The Cool Part:

Using a system like this would allow for the creation of different capacity magazines with different stats, here's some basic ideas I just came up with on the spot.

-Standard

Generic 30 round mag

-High cap

Larger, but slower to load mag with 50 rounds

-Belt

Exclusively for the LMG, 200~ round belt that would lower accuracy and slightly increase wear

-Speed pull

Faster to reload 20 round magazine

 

Balancing:

These are cool sure, but how would someone keep every player from hauling around 400 round 7.62 belts for their LMG as opposed to any other choice?

One way would be to have it be more of a trade off, higher capacity for slower reload and a minor effect, for instance a larger belt could take longer to reload and cause a speed penalty (something else that could be made better by late tier assault rifle perks just to further push people to actually get the last rank of the skill) while a standard 100 round box wouldn't have the same issue and would reload faster.

 

Inventory Issues:

If there's one thing I've noticed, carrying all that ammo AND the equipment/items you need for a horde night can be an issue even with current ammo stacks, that being that I tend to burn through all my ammo long before I've killed everything (though I do play with heavily increased horde sizes).

Making mags lower than the total stack size could cause issues for players by making it even harder to carry a lot of ammo since mags would be hard to stack from a development perspective in a way that both lets players see the ammo in them and select them easily from the inventory screen.

My initial thought for this is adding some sort of bandoleer item (I know there's a gear mod for it but it's a stat boost more than anything) which could go in a theoretical bag slot for a player, the total mags you can fit in it might even be able to scale with the quality level of the bandoleer

more info:

Another solution is to stack full mags and allow the player to drop a mag by pressing something like reload twice instead of putting it back into the inventory.)

 

Aesthetics:

One other issue is identifying the ammo type in a mag at a distance, a simple fix would be to perhaps have icons changed, standard round filled mags being normal and special round mags having tape around them with the color of the round type.

For things like belts it would be as simple as changing the round tip color.

 

New Possibilities For Existing Weapons:

One really cool thing this adds is the ability to expand on existing weapons.

A few cool examples:

-Hunting Rifle

Internal magazine mod that lets you load more than one round into the mag as well as the ability to use clips to load it faster

-M60

Ammo box mount, would let you use 100/50 round boxes on the M60 at the cost of a mod slot, making reload faster for the gun

-Pump shotgun

Tube catch, would let you load a quick reload tube with shells that can be used to reload the shotgun faster

 

It's all just stuff I came up with on the spot so lemme know what you all think.

[Liesel Weppen]

Nice idea... if 7d2d would be a pure shooter with focus on being realistic.

 

Imho your idea is just some extra steps to take, increasing necessary clicks and require more items. I still would carry around 1000 7,62 rounds and some magazines. If a magazine is empty, i still just use the 1000 rounds to "repair" the magazine. That's the only extra step you are introducing.

 

There are already mods that increase magazin sizes and reload time. Also magazine size is a random stat on every weapon. You could also add a reload penalty to mods that increase the magazine size. But even from a realistic point of view, why should it take longer to reload a clip magazine with 35 instead of 30 bullets? Different types may take different times, reloading a clip is faster than reloading a new belt. If it is a "single load mechanism" like the pump gun, every shot you can add additionally does directly scale the reload time (that would more likely correspond to the time it takes to refill an external magazine). But as you can't simply modify such systems to hold more bullets, is the reason why there are no mods that increase "magazine" capacity of weapons like a pump gun. Also the hunting rifle doesn't have a magazine at all. It can just load one shot and that has to be done manually. It's not possible to just add some sort of magazine. Just like it is not possible to add magazines to a double barrel shotgun.

 

The game shouldn't become a escape of tarkov, where you could even accidentially put the wrong ammunition into the wrong gun, and then wonder why it doesn't shoot (and from a realistic pov still be happy if it just does not shoot, instead of exploding in your hands :D).

 

If this would be available as a mod, i still wouldn't use it. But maybe interesting for people that are focused on more realistic gun play.

[nalal]

1 minute ago, Liesel Weppen said:

Nice idea... if 7d2d would be a pure shooter with focus on being realistic.

 

Imho your idea is just some extra steps to take, increasing necessary clicks and require more items. I still would carry around 1000 7,62 rounds and some magazines. If a magazine is empty, i still just use the 1000 rounds to "repair" the magazine. That's the only extra step you are introducing.

 

There are already mods that increase magazin sizes and reload time. Also magazine size is a random stat on every weapon. You could also add a reload penalty to mods that increase the magazine size. But even from a realistic point of view, why should it take longer to reload a clip magazine with 35 instead of 30 bullets? Different types may take different times, reloading a clip is faster than reloading a new belt. If it is a "single load mechanism" like the pump gun, every shot you can add additionally does directly scale the reload time (that would more likely correspond to the time it takes to refill an external magazine). But as you can't simply modify such systems to hold more bullets, is the reason why there are no mods that increase "magazine" capacity of weapons like a pump gun. Also the hunting rifle doesn't have a magazine at all. It can just load one shot and that has to be done manually. It's not possible to just add some sort of magazine. Just like it is not possible to add magazines to a double barrel shotgun.

 

If this would be available as a mod, i still wouldn't use it.

I'll try to go over each of these individually to kinda explain my reasoning a bit better since I was kinda vague on some stuff in the OP.

 

"Imho your idea is just some extra steps to take, increasing necessary clicks and require more items. I still would carry around 1000 7,62 rounds and some magazines. If a magazine is empty, i still just use the 1000 rounds to "repair" the magazine. That's the only extra step you are introducing."

The idea is that a bit more complexity to the firearms in game and allow people to make more specialized builds around using a certain firearm in a certain way, for instance, taking a tactical AR, strapping it with a grip, single shot mod, laser and 4x scope to make it a highly effective DMR.

One could in theory use a 10 round mag for that rifle which could add an accuracy benefit to further improve that at the cost of total ammo used before reload which increases the depth that you can customize your play style.

It also makes conserving ammo a bigger priority since you would need loaded mags to actually shoot, meaning that even if you pick up ammo during a fight you'd still only have what you went in with until you can find a moment to start loading mags, which could just be something that's done on the crafting queue.

 

"There are already mods that increase magazin sizes and reload time. Also magazine size is a random stat on every weapon. You could also add a reload penalty to mods that increase the magazine size. But even from a realistic point of view, why should it take longer to reload a clip magazine with 35 instead of 30 bullets?"

I understand that there's already mag mods but I'm simply looking at this as an expansion of that concept in a way.

As for a realistic perspective, you could justify it with the mag being heavier and a bit more unwieldy and requiring more care to reload.

I also don't think there should be a dozen different mags for each round, just a simple set of 2 or 3 for say 10, 30 and maybe 50 rounds with each varying based on the type of firearm they're used with.

 

"f it is a "single load mechanism" like the pump gun, every shot you can add additionally does directly scale the reload time (that would more likely correspond to the time it takes to refill an external magazine). But as you can't simply modify such systems to hold more bullets, is the reason why there are no mods that increase "magazine" capacity of weapons like a pump gun."

I think you're talking about the blunderbuss but correct me if I'm wrong.

I agree that it would be a stretch to add a mag to the thing which is why I think it's alright to let them be loaded from just the ammo alone, not requiring a magazine.

The same would be true for the pump action and hunting rifle.

 

"Also the hunting rifle doesn't have a magazine at all. It can just load one shot and that has to be done manually. It's not possible to just add some sort of magazine. Just like it is not possible to add magazines to a double barrel shotgun."

I understand that, I was mostly referencing the idea that you could add a mod to the hunting rifle that lets you have an internal magazine (firearm terminology for one that cannot be detached to reload it) so that more than one round can be loaded into it at once.

 

I hope that clears up a bit of what I was trying to get at.

[Liesel Weppen]

14 minutes ago, nalal said:

I'll try to go over each of these individually to kinda explain my reasoning a bit better since I was kinda vague on some stuff in the OP.

Please take your time to look how quotes work. They exist for a reason and your manually quoted parts make it really hard to read.

And if you do manually quotes, at least don't put another full quote on top...

 

Quote

It also makes conserving ammo a bigger priority since you would need loaded mags to actually shoot, meaning that even if you pick up ammo during a fight you'd still only have what you went in with until you can find a moment to start loading mags, which could just be something that's done on the crafting queue.

I got that, but i don't want to have such mechanics in 7d2d. That's why i said, it might be interesting for people that would like to have more realistic gun play in the game.

 

Quote

I also don't think there should be a dozen different mags for each round, just a simple set of 2 or 3 for say 10, 30 and maybe 50 rounds with each varying based on the type of firearm they're used with.

Except your wish to have to reload magazines as a extra step, all your wishes can be implemented by changing stats of existing mods or introduce new ones. And from a balancing point of view having just one bullet in the hunting rifle is the draw back of the hunting rifle in comaprison to the marksman rifle.

 

Quote

I understand that, I was mostly referencing the idea that you could add a mod to the hunting rifle that lets you have an internal magazine (firearm terminology for one that cannot be detached to reload it) so that more than one round can be loaded into it at once.

Would be a different weapon imho. Could be added as a mod. Like many mods already do add additional weapons of such kinds. Even with additional added ammo types.

 

Quote

I hope that clears up a bit of what I was trying to get at.

I understood what you are trying to achieve, but i simply don't like it.

 

To differentiate: Is this some kind of mod-request, or do you want something like that being implemented in vanilla? I'm fine with a mod, because nobody forces me to use it. I absolutely dislike adding such mechanics to vanilla, because that would "force" me to use a mod that removes those mechanics.

[nalal]

2 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

To differentiate: Is this some kind of mod-request, or do you want something like that being implemented in vanilla? I'm fine with a mod, because nobody forces me to use it. I absolutely dislike adding such mechanics to vanilla.

I see, so you're saying you don't enjoy the concept on a fundamental level.

That's fine then, if people find it unenjoyable overall I can understand why the concept would be best avoided.

[Liesel Weppen]

13 minutes ago, nalal said:

I see, so you're saying you don't enjoy the concept on a fundamental level.

Yes, and in my answer i tried to explained why i see it that way.

 

Saying "on a fundamental level" however is to hard. I dislike your idea of having extra magazine items and need to reload them as an extra step. But what you are trying to achieve with those extra magazines can be done even without adding extra magazines.

Magazines with higher capacities having slower reload just needs changing stats on those mods (*). And you could also introduce a ammunition belt mod for the M60, that gives you a 200 round "magazine" but with incredible slow reload time (or probably even higher durability loss on the gun). Or another weapon (m60 with ammo chain) could be added, which can't even load single bullets but requires on of those ammo-boxes (already in the game) to reload. Those ideas are good imho. But they don't require to change base game mechanics as your separate-magazine-item does.

 

(*) Regarding that idea, having a bigger magazine is the advantage of that mod. If it decreases reload time in a corresponding way, why should i use it? If it increases reload time just a little, that's just a debuff for the mod. It's a question of balancing and there should be some balancing, as it is still a game.

Different balancing would be to load a "1000-bullet belt" into a M60 but with such incredible slow reload time, that basically if you run out of your 1000 bullets, reload during fight is practically impossible, so you need a backup weapon (or hope 1000 bullets are enough).

 

 

[nalal]

16 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

Yes, and in my answer i tried to explained why i see it that way.

 

Saying "on a fundamental level" however is to hard. I dislike your idea of having extra magazine items and need to reload them as an extra step. But what you are trying to achieve with those extra magazines can be done even without adding extra magazines.

Magazines with higher capacities having slower reload just needs changing stats on those mods. And you could also introduce a ammunition belt mod for the M60, that gives you a 200 round "magazine" but with incredible slow reload time (or probably even higher durability loss on the gun). Or another weapon (m60 with ammo chain) could be added, which can't even load single bullets but requires on of those ammo-boxes (already in the game) to reload. Those ideas are good imho. But they don't require to change base game mechanics as your separate-magazine-item does.

 

 

That's a fair point, a change to the way certain mods work for certain guns and adding a few more would be a lot better in a vanilla context than overhauling the entire guns system.

Perhaps I should look into mod development to see what can be done for a custom system like I was thinking of.

 

Quote

(*) Regarding that idea, having a bigger magazine is the advantage of that mod. If it decreases reload time in a corresponding way, why should i use it? If it increases reload time just a little, that's just a debuff for the mod. It's a question of balancing and there should be some balancing, as it is still a game.

Different balancing would be to load a "1000-bullet belt" into a M60 but with such incredible slow reload time, that basically if you run out of your 1000 bullets, reload during fight is practically impossible, so you need a backup weapon (or hope 1000 bullets are enough).

The idea would be that it's less a direct upgrade and more a sidegrade, letting a player build different weapons for different situations and a more specialized gun, I've found myself getting really in to the weapon modding system as it is and think it would be interesting to have more options for customization. I think that it would likely need to be tuned in a way that one can unlock more mags based on their rank in a specific weapon perk, meaning that better mags would need to be balanced based on what tier they're unlocked. For instance, a 1000 round belt would be really slow to reload and maybe effect weapon durability but be part of the unlocks in the last level of the machinegun perk.

[Liesel Weppen]

1 hour ago, nalal said:

The idea would be that it's less a direct upgrade and more a sidegrade, letting a player build different weapons for different situations and a more specialized gun

Imho just works on "huge" differences, as said with the 1000-bullet M60.

Having a magazine with 30 bullets and 1s reload time versus using a magazine mod that increases capacity to 40 but also reload time to 1.3s is imho rather pointless in sense of a sidegrade.

Another "fault" of the current system is, that any mod increases the weapon damage besides other effects that are shown in the stats. So basically you use any mod anyway (unless you don't have any that improves what you really want to have), even if you are not interested in its actual advantages.

 

But as said previously, you seem to be focused on shooter mechanics. I'm still playing a survival game that has some shooting included.