Feedback on injury system

[Liesel Weppen]

1 minute ago, Sitcoms said:

Oof, I've got to spend 100 dukes to stop a sprain though? Not fun early game (in my opinion)

You get 300-500 from one simple T1 quest....

 

What do you do if you got infected and don't find honey in time, nor antibiotica?

[Danidas]

8 minutes ago, Sitcoms said:

 

Oof, I've got to spend 100 dukes to stop a sprain though? Not fun early game (in my opinion)

Luckily sprains are very minor and main draw back is a higher chance for a break.

[Gazz]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

Take the Madmole by the horns Gazz!

I doubt this is going to be the default.

Rivers of tears, y'know.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Sitcoms said:

Oof, I've got to spend 100 dukes to stop a sprain though? Not fun early game (in my opinion)

Just sell off a bunch of junk you're saving for "someday". Do a quest. 100 dukes is easy to come by even in the early game. I've never felt that sprains are particularly debilitating in any case. Doesn't a splint also help a sprain?

2 minutes ago, Gazz said:

I doubt this is going to be the default.

Rivers of tears, y'know.

Default isn't what I'm after. Default would alienate too many people.

[Danidas]

It could be lumped into a new death penalty difficulty menu that goes from none to permadeath with persistent injuries in between with the current default death penalty. So it will be None, Current XP penalty, persistent injuries, and lastly permadeath.

[Blake_]

12 hours ago, Gazz said:

Binary solutions won't help much one way or another.

What I would do is to not clear all debuffs on death but cap them back to their non-lethal stages.

That IS a good idea. The question is... are you throwing it around at random or do you actually have the green light to do it? I would prefer a sweet "yes" thank you very much.

[Gazz]

This isn't on the A20 agenda. We're just discussing possibilities.

 

[hiemfire]

13 hours ago, Sitcoms said:

 

Oof, I've got to spend 100 dukes to stop a sprain though? Not fun early game (in my opinion)

And get a good rng roll for them to end up in the vending machine you check. Honestly wish they'd let us do in game what we do in real life for sprains and wrap them with a bandage (the plain ones). Maybe shave 15% or 25% of the duration of the sprain when you apply the bandage. Probably shouldn't be stackable with itself or other mitigating effects though.

[canadianbluebeer]

I like how all the debuffs are wiped when you DIE.  Yer DEAD. Pushing up the daisies. etc.

 

All your infections etc should be gone. Yer DEAD!  Not undead.

You DO get the XP penalty, so have to work at it to overcome that and start progressing again. That is your penalty.

 

The old way resulted in deathloops.  A16 you lost wellness, but there was a hard floor, and you could raise that with perks.

Deathloops are no fun for anyone.

 

The length of time to recover from broken bits, sprains, yep, that is a problem early on, no doubt.

As stated though, armor does help avoid that.  Should be easy enough to get padded armor even on day 1 or 2.

(just a bit of duct tape and cloth. check all the garbage, you should find enough to make 5 pieces)

Later on, with perks, it is a minor inconvenience mostly.  Mostly. 

Broken legs I think are the worst. (arms being second if doing melee)

 

 

The fatigue thing, I never figured out HOW happened.  (happened to me once, and not sure just what did it)

Now, I always keep spare meds either on me, or in the vehicle. (always had spare bandages, FA kits, splints)

 

If you use larger backpacks/storage, then it's a minor thing. On the basic though?

Bandage. FA Bandage. painkillers. splints. vitamins. honey/antibio. tea. Water. Food. Sewing kit. FA Kit.

 

There is 11 things for the "just in case I get thumped".  A BIG chunk of the default backpack.

(can it be trimmed down? of course. Which ones to you pass on though? hrmm)

 

That's a big enough wall of text for today.  😛

 

 

 

[katarynna]

24 minutes ago, canadianbluebeer said:

If you use larger backpacks/storage, then it's a minor thing. On the basic though?

Bandage. FA Bandage. painkillers. splints. vitamins. honey/antibio. tea. Water. Food. Sewing kit. FA Kit.

You don't need to bring both water and tea. Down to 10.

 

I don't bring antibiotics/honey. Infection is slow enough and rare enough that I just stop by home when it's convenient to cure it. I generally have a decent stock by day 3-4, since i hit every stump the first few days, plus antibiotics are a common quest reward and a reasonably common find from med piles/cabinets. Down to 9.

 

I don't bring splints. The components to make them are common finds in many loot containers, so usually if i need one i can make it. If not, i head back home after i finish what i am doing. Down to 8.

 

I don't bring vitamins. If i haven't looted one, again i stop by home when i finish what i am doing. Down to 7.

 

I don't bring bandages or sewing kits. Common loot + everything they fix can be fixed by FA kits/bandages if i don't have them. Down to 5.

 

Food, tea, and painkillers are always for me. I prioritize getting a farm going, including aloe seeds, so very early i have a renewable source of FA bandages, which are then always with me. Until then, i will carry reg bandages. FA kits are always with me once i get to t3-t4 level quests. Before that, i bring em if i have em.

 

So 4-5 slots, although i don't consider food and tea to be for first aid. I am bringing it to eat/drink as needed. So to me, 2-3 slots for FA which i consider very reasonable even on vanilla settings, especially since i play carefully and rarely get critical injuries anyways.

[DaChibii]

On the topic of inventory space devoted to 'healing/survival'... generally I keep a slot for a hydration beverage (Red Tea/GR Tea/Pure Water/Water), food (whatever can even be Snowberries), Painkillers, Honey (emergency food/antibiotic), and Cloth/Duct Tape/Wood. So 4 slots and another 3 for general supplies. On average I tend to only have 2 to 2 1/2 rows of empty space for looting. This means I end up using vehicle storage and drop chests for POI looting more often, but I consider that part of the challenge.

[Roland]

4 hours ago, canadianbluebeer said:

I like how all the debuffs are wiped when you DIE.  Yer DEAD. Pushing up the daisies. etc.

 

All your infections etc should be gone. Yer DEAD!  Not undead.

Technically, you are NEARLY DEAD but you barely escaped with your life. The penalty even calls it a near-death penalty. Just like Glenn appeared to be zombie food even so we emerge from our own dumpsters narrowly averting death despite the cliffhanger final scene showing zombies jumping on our prone bodies and starting to munch. We just didn't see a member of the Crazy Jake clan pulling us from danger at the last moment and taking us home to our bedroll.

 

Actual daisy pushing would involve us not playing any longer after it happened. That is a mode many are hoping will be made part of the game. Actual death.

 

Let me ask you this, Mr Mortician.  If logically the death you are saying we suffer should wipe all debuffs then shouldn't it also wipe all benefits? All perks and skills should be lost and start from zero once again. Otherwise there is no consistency. Personally, I'd rather keep all the good AND the bad character status effects after ALMOST dying.

 

But I'd be happy to keep it as an option for people who just want to keep all the positive good stuff and none of the negative bad stuff and have NEAR DEATH wipe the debuff slate clean.

[Kalen]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

Let me ask you this, Mr Mortician.  If logically the death you are saying we suffer should wipe all debuffs then shouldn't it also wipe all benefits? All perks and skills should be lost and start from zero once again. Otherwise there is no consistency. Personally, I'd rather keep all the good AND the bad character status effects after ALMOST dying.

You are on a roll today

[Roland]

19 minutes ago, Kalen said:

You are on a roll today

I better stop for the night, then. Good Night Folks!

 

 

[hiemfire]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

Let me ask you this, Mr Mortician.  If logically the death you are saying we suffer should wipe all debuffs then shouldn't it also wipe all benefits? All perks and skills should be lost and start from zero once again. Otherwise there is no consistency. Personally, I'd rather keep all the good AND the bad character status effects after ALMOST dying.

You're conflating perks and skills (which are effectively "permanent" outside using a Forgettin 'Lixer for perk tree perks, the dev version for both Perk tree Perks and Mag perks) with temporary status effects... Last I recalled both negative (I.E. Infection and Fatigue) and positive (I.E. the saturation effects from being well fed and well hydrated which have a reduced decay rate from base + 1 to base + 20) status effects are reset/removed when the character dies. 

[Tin]

I think it would be pretty cool that each attack has a chance for certain buff effects, since they have a number of attack animations to work from, and hopefully they get implemented (fingers crossed).

 

For instance: They added the seal clap attack? (the attack with both arms) have every time that attack gets used, it has a slight chance to "Snag" (aka stun) the player and slow their movement down for 1-2 seconds.

Give the Cops and the biker a chance for them to do the "hammer blow", that actually knocks the player down.

Normal attacks give a slight chance to cause bleed.

The bite attack has a high chance of giving the infection buff (they have it, but not really in).

and so on.

 

Still randomized buff chances, based on what attack animation they use, but the buff effects are more designated to certain attack animations.

 

Not a major thing by any means, just think it would be a cool add is all.   

 

Edit: 

Spoiler

Yeah, it can already be done through modding, but I know they could do it much better.

 

[canadianbluebeer]

17 hours ago, Roland said:

Technically, you are NEARLY DEAD but you barely escaped with your life. The penalty even calls it a near-death penalty. Just like Glenn appeared to be zombie food even so we emerge from our own dumpsters narrowly averting death despite the cliffhanger final scene showing zombies jumping on our prone bodies and starting to munch. We just didn't see a member of the Crazy Jake clan pulling us from danger at the last moment and taking us home to our bedroll.

 

Actual daisy pushing would involve us not playing any longer after it happened. That is a mode many are hoping will be made part of the game. Actual death.

 

Let me ask you this, Mr Mortician.  If logically the death you are saying we suffer should wipe all debuffs then shouldn't it also wipe all benefits? All perks and skills should be lost and start from zero once again. Otherwise there is no consistency. Personally, I'd rather keep all the good AND the bad character status effects after ALMOST dying.

 

But I'd be happy to keep it as an option for people who just want to keep all the positive good stuff and none of the negative bad stuff and have NEAR DEATH wipe the debuff slate clean.

 

Nope, we're ded.  However, unlike the Parrot, when you put 10,000 volts through us, we do get up and VOOOOM!  

All our Buffs and Debuffs are wiped. So that candy, buffy food?  gone.

(I wouldn't be against food/water taking a hit on death though.  Waking up from the dead is gonna give you the munchies) 

 

Then again, it could be we just had a soulstone going, thus we never really die. Warlocks.  heh-heh.

 

BTW, I'm not against a dead is dead option.

 

Mr Mortician.  I'd take that as a title.  

 

20 hours ago, katarynna said:

You don't need to bring both water and tea. Down to 10.

 

I don't bring antibiotics/honey. Infection is slow enough and rare enough that I just stop by home when it's convenient to cure it. I generally have a decent stock by day 3-4, since i hit every stump the first few days, plus antibiotics are a common quest reward and a reasonably common find from med piles/cabinets. Down to 9.

 

I don't bring splints. The components to make them are common finds in many loot containers, so usually if i need one i can make it. If not, i head back home after i finish what i am doing. Down to 8.

 

I don't bring vitamins. If i haven't looted one, again i stop by home when i finish what i am doing. Down to 7.

 

I don't bring bandages or sewing kits. Common loot + everything they fix can be fixed by FA kits/bandages if i don't have them. Down to 5.

 

Food, tea, and painkillers are always for me. I prioritize getting a farm going, including aloe seeds, so very early i have a renewable source of FA bandages, which are then always with me. Until then, i will carry reg bandages. FA kits are always with me once i get to t3-t4 level quests. Before that, i bring em if i have em.

 

So 4-5 slots, although i don't consider food and tea to be for first aid. I am bringing it to eat/drink as needed. So to me, 2-3 slots for FA which i consider very reasonable even on vanilla settings, especially since i play carefully and rarely get critical injuries anyways.

Deep Laceration needs a sewing kit.  (can't remember if a FA kit will fix that one)

Abrasions:  reg bandage, for some reason FA bandage wouldn't fix that. (bug or bad memory)   but yes, cloth is easy to get.

 

Red Tea is what I keep for drink until I can make purified water. Goldenrod Tea is for dysentry (red won't fix).  Can usually skip that one.

Vitamins: sometimes I find a bunch, sometimes none.  Since I don't know what gives the fatigue, I keep some with me. (it's a very heavy hit if you get it)

 

Infection: yeah, can skip that later on. Early on when having to run to get home, ...

 

Painkillers, drink, food, bandages, sewing kit.

 

Well gee, have to make choices on what to carry. Whodathunkit. 

 

(going to have to do a couple tests on the FA bandages and FA kits though)

 

[hiemfire]

17 minutes ago, canadianbluebeer said:

Deep Laceration needs a sewing kit.  (can't remember if a FA kit will fix that one)

First aid kits do fix deep lacerations.

17 minutes ago, canadianbluebeer said:

Abrasions:  reg bandage, for some reason FA bandage wouldn't fix that. (bug or bad memory)   but yes, cloth is easy to get.

Odd, I've run into the exact opposite. First aid bandages and aloe cream treat abrasions. Basic cloth bandages only work on active bleeding for me.

[canadianbluebeer]

Just now, hiemfire said:

First aid kits do fix deep lacerations.

Odd, I've run into the exact opposite. First aid bandages and aloe cream treat abrasions. Basic cloth bandages only work on active bleeding for me.

 

This is why I said I'd have to check.   I know reg bandage for bleeding, sewing kits for deep lacerations.  abrasions.. wasn't sure.

could be FA didn't stop bleeding.

 

Early on, I don't have enough FA Kits, so I save those for BM.  Once I can make them, well, ...  (which on day 35 I finally learned, so time to make a batch or 6)  

 

[rescue86k]

The good practice is limited rng or using it creatively. Radius zombie spawn around the player randomly, works during bloodmoon as a good example, with conditions set in place to limit it to areas not built by the player. That is a good example of rng use. Fallout 4 attempted to resolve the issue of rng in combat with critical hits, creatively, having more like a charge up and controllerable use of critical hits against opponents. 

 

The reason why we are careful about rng in combat, is because its fast action, fast pace, and you want to make sure the player can learn from his mistakes, and "get gud" later.

 

There is a way to learn from early game rng from zombies. The solution is avoid them, and the dwellings they are in, or disable zombies all together until you have reached a desired level. There may be other ways. I personally enjoy going right into the action. Start right away with exploring interiors, and make a starter base within.

 

I read some comments here, to apply the special damage to various zombies, so you can learn , which ones to avoid.

Also for a quick fix might be give a grace period of X days for player to be immune to infection, and injuries. X might = expected time to find honey for infection, and expected time to have found enough armor to protect yourself from injuries, if you so chose to find armor first , on start of your run. That way its the players fault he didn't prepare himself. 

 

For trap floors, (off subject) Sometimes it works, other times, I didn't learn anything from it. Perhaps some very slight graphical change, hard to see, that differs the floor look, I mean just enough, that you would spot a trap floor, if you were sneaking, looking at the floor, but easy to miss otherwise.

 

When I play, I attempt, no death runs. If I make it to day 5, then die, I'll usually tell myself I'm allowed to die 4 more times, and to make it to day X in order to beat the run. It's a personal challenge. I have found that hard to do with this update. I'm okay with traps in pois, you learn.. the pois, to get good. I still wouldn't mind a very very faint crack on the floor easy to miss, as I get the thrill going into a poi I don't know, and because of a cautious nature, am able to win it first time round. Some traps feel unavoidable, but mostly just needs a que to look for.

 

Edit: Going on run 8 or 7, my challenge is how long I live exploring, make it to night. I want to be wrong. I want to find a way to win, outside of avoid zombies all together. So far I survive about 1-2 pois before something messes me up bad or kills me. I used to go 5-35 days before something stopped me, that was alpha 18 last. If I get past this, (on nomad,) that will be enjoyable, because its like doing the dark souls 2 runs for them damned rings, no death no bonfire. I did no death, did that one. Second was too hard.

 

[meganoth]

14 hours ago, rescue86k said:

For trap floors, (off subject) Sometimes it works, other times, I didn't learn anything from it. Perhaps some very slight graphical change, hard to see, that differs the floor look, I mean just enough, that you would spot a trap floor, if you were sneaking, looking at the floor, but easy to miss otherwise.

Some trap floor actually have visual hints. Also there is an audible hint, shortly before they collapse they creak louldy. It is enough time to backpedal.

The alternative is to run over it. That way you can cross any trap floor safely (at least this is the way I handle trap floors for a long time now and I never fell down when simply running over it.). You might have to deal with whatever is behind the trap though.

 

[Axonius]

A survival game has to have adversity. Injuries are there with the intent to slow you down and increase your chance of failure.  This is why so many people play perma-death. The survival genre is all about avoiding and managing adversity. 

[rescue86k]

On 11/25/2020 at 11:33 AM, Axonius said:

A survival game has to have adversity. Injuries are there with the intent to slow you down and increase your chance of failure.  This is why so many people play perma-death. The survival genre is all about avoiding and managing adversity. 

Response to qoute, also an update on experience. 

 

First off topic, was hilarious, want to share my day 7. So I fortified a graveyard church thing prefab, across from trader. It had pre-existing walls. Spikes.. I had 2 game hours before the raid onto base. It was enough time to get ready, organize things, etc. I had a full drawbridge with gaurd rails and platform all nicely placed. I just needed to remove the frame block that was temperary to hold it up. Some chain reaction thing took out the entire bridge, I had 2 hours to .. break into my own base. That was an expensive draw bridge I thought.. then looked inventory.. I need 

 

wood. To get back. But all the trees are gone nearby. I did live, but it would have been funny had this been caught on video. Fancying my beautiful bridge, the only way into the base zombie proof. 

 

POP. From a frame. I did figure out how it was done, the frame being on the edge, the code triggers if frame drops, it will level out the rest with it .. all the way down hahahahahahhahahaha.

 

Reponse to qoute, & update:

I think being simple about it, I seem to die on day 1, and not die at all after. It feels balanced after about 14 or so game hours in. I think in general there should be leniency at the beginning at least on your first day, until Nightfall arrives, then it feels like a good game after. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rescue86k]

The react was probably more hilarious at the time,

 

in thought "Okay I have 2 hours to get my ammo, organize the weapons, etc, maybe even reinforce or polish some stuff, now to take out that frame so zombies can't cross despite bridge retracted, don't need that thing anyway"

**Then pulls frame**

*clunk clunk jurgle jurgle, clock , blonk! , clunk , graw, bunk, clock clock clunk, *

 

Then softly spoken outloud. 

"Oh @%$#... what do I do now."

[Roland]

Structural Integrity is the the secret critical injury feature. When it triggers it will injure your pride, your sanity, and your security....