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Stone->Iron->Steel is unbalanced.


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6 hours ago, RipClaw said:

I hope the stamina consumption of the power tools will not be too high. What I love about working with the auger is that I only have to pause when I need to refill the tank or a zombie falls into my mine.
 

 

er? I just drill the zombie with the auger.  Makes a nice squelchy sound.

:D

 

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9 hours ago, Crater Creator said:

Ooh, those sneaky math teachers!  They're always up to something.

 

The OP makes a point which I think everyone has overlooked: why should there be an inflection point?

 

Assuming the numbers are correct, the stamina required to destroy any given number of blocks is not consistent.  If you think this number should go up over time, then why should it decrease going from iron to steel?  If you think this number should go down over time, then why should it increase going from stone to iron?

 

It’s not about how steep the curve is, or whether perks and whatnot can make the curve less important.  It’s about why the curve has a kink in it.  If you believe the game’s progression curve on this really is smooth in practice, then what smooths this out?  Where is the kink in the opposite direction, that gets easier but then harder?  Yes there are other curves, like stamina regeneration or loot level, but what other curve has a kink in it?  So far the only things people have brought up are things that change smoothly from early game to late game, or how things “feel”.

 

The elapsed time doesn't counteract this.  I did a test of my own: the time to destroy a 1000 HP iron block with different tools.  For each I did three trials, one each with a Q1, Q3, and Q5 tool, to average out the range in stats.  Results:

58.3s (stone axe)

24.5s (iron pickaxe)

16.6s (steel pickaxe)

8.49s (auger, for the sake of completeness)

 

I did this test in debug mode to eliminate the effects of stamina.  With the exception of power tools (to be changed in A20, as mentioned), stamina cost increases smoothly from low tier to high tier.  Stamina regeneration and max stamina increase smoothly from low to high as you gain perks and levels, respectively.  Everything progresses smoothly, except for stamina-per-block.

 

Because progression isn't just one curve, but multiple aspects. The issue with the initial analysis is that it assumes that 'stamina cost per block' is the true guide for character progression. Where as actual progression has multiple vectors to it. To be honest, I sort of trust the designers on this... even though they seem to be doing a trial & error/experimental approach to the design (yes I know all designs go through multiple designs and some systems are totally different than originally conceived). I just hope there is a master spreadsheet somewhere where they at least doing some sort of intelligent balancing instead of pushing it to live and seeing what works.

From my perspective it appears that for 'building/harvesting' progression goes from 'stamina cost' to 'time to harvest' to finally 'fuel cost'. I think people are getting hung up on Steel tier being the end tier when really it's part of 'time to harvest' segment. I can sort of see if the reduction of stamina cost for steel tools is to overall increase the 'time to cost' without encroaching on mechanical tools near instantaneous harvesting. You can sort of see this balancing act with shovels where eventually all the shovels are the same due to the low block health of sand/clay (not including cement/cobblestone pallets in POIs). You almost never need a steel shovel because Iron harvests almost at the same speed but doesn't cost steel to make. In most of my playthroughs I just keep a 'Gravedigger' mod on my Pickaxe, and transfer it to a temporary Q5 stone shovel when I need to dig, since the inventory slot is more important (unless I have an auger, then it's just the all purpose tool).

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9 hours ago, Gazz said:

Yup, pretty much.

This only "affects" people who for reasons of their own harvest one block and one block only.

I think it is pretty telling that the Keeper of the Spreadsheets on the TFP team came and read all the concerns and only had this to say.... ;)

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43 minutes ago, Roland said:

I think it is pretty telling that the Keeper of the Spreadsheets on the TFP team came and read all the concerns and only had this to say.... ;)

I knew where it was heading. =P

There are multiple approaches to get there so the only chance to scale this is statistically, taking all means into account. It's up to the players how strongly they push harvesting.

 

If you create a mod where it's game over after you harvest one block then the vanilla balancing would suck for that.

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On 11/11/2020 at 3:14 AM, Gazz said:

Yup, pretty much.

This only "affects" people who for reasons of their own harvest one block and one block only.

 

Not only those people, but on further testing I see what you're getting at.

 

Player A: I only harvest a single block, e.g. to crack open a safe.

Analysis: As discussed, Player A that only harvests a single block will encounter this weird inflection point, where stamina usage is highest with T2 iron tools.

 

Player B: I mine until I've harvested an arbitrary number of blocks, e.g. 100 blocks.

Analysis: All the numbers just scale up, so T2 iron tools will, again, weirdly use the most stamina.

 

Player 😄 I mine every available block, e.g. until the vein of ore is exhausted.

Analysis: The vein will be some random fixed number of blocks, so the result is the same as Player B: T2 iron tools will weirdly use the most stamina.

 

Player D: I mine until I get tired (out of stamina).

Analysis: The time to exhaustion decreases smoothly across tiers: 81.7s for stone, 14.2s for iron, and 8.67s for steel.  Interestingly, Player D barely gets more yield with T3 steel tools than they do with T2 iron tools.  Mining iron ore, the iron yield was 768 for stone (tools), 277 for iron, and 250 for steel.

 

Player E: I mine for some set length of time, e.g. until sunrise.

Analysis: For a fixed duration, yields rise smoothly through the tiers.  In one hour of mining iron ore, iron yield is 485 for stone, 1112 for iron, 1680 for steel, and 3349 for the auger.  To test the stamina usage, I set max stamina to 200, got dehydrated to minimize regeneration, and chose a duration of 4 in-game minutes, because that's how long it took the worst tool to bottom out on stamina.  Stamina usage for this constant duration was 110 for stone (tools), 185 for iron, and 200 for steel.  So like Player D's yield, stamina usage rises smoothly, but T2 iron and T3 steel are almost the same.

 

Player F: I mine until I have an arbitrary amount of harvest, e.g. 1000 iron.

Analysis: With infinite stamina, Player F's elapsed time decreases smoothly with tier: 5m19s for stone, 2m29s for iron, 1m43s for steel, and 51.0s for an auger.  Without infinite stamina, the stamina usage to harvest at least 40 iron (like with Player E, we choose the max possible value before the worst tool exhausts stamina) decreases smoothly with tier: 179 for stone, 143 for iron, and 130 for steel.

 

Player G: I mine until my tool breaks.

Analysis: I didn't have the patience to actually run an experiment.  But the times will increase smoothly with tier since higher tiers have more durability, as will the yields.  These effects probably dominate any potential inflection point in the stamina usage.

 

Conclusion: There are multiple use cases (A, B, and C) with a weird inflection point where T2 iron tools use the most stamina.  There are other use cases (D and E) where T2 iron tools and T3 steel tools have nearly identical results by some measure, meaning that T3 may be significantly superior by some measures, but not every measure.  But the curves in these cases are still technically smooth, as are the curves in the other use cases studied.

 

I'm guessing you set the numbers to avoid a weird inflection point in cases D and E.  Again, T2 and T3 are nearly flat, but technically the curves are still smooth.  I agree with Solomon's supposition, that ideally the game would use numbers like he proposes to also avoid the weird inflection point for cases A, B, and C.  Then all types of players could see a smooth progression curve.

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12 hours ago, Crater Creator said:

I'm guessing you set the numbers to avoid a weird inflection point in cases D and E.  Again, T2 and T3 are nearly flat, but technically the curves are still smooth.  I agree with Solomon's supposition, that ideally the game would use numbers like he proposes to also avoid the weird inflection point for cases A, B, and C.  Then all types of players could see a smooth progression curve.

I gotta thank you for the further testing, i usually dont have the time to do such thing thanks to work and family so in most cases i only have numbers to work with.

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Here is the real question for this, How good of a stat roll did you get on each of your tools as stats for T2 Iron, T3 Steel, and T4 Auger are random? Note that T1 Stone always have the same stats but as mentioned they can vary wildly for anything beyond the stone age. As a result it is possible to get a Iron tool with better stats then a Steel one or even a lower quality tool having better stats then one of a higher quality all mattering on where the stat rolls land and how far the over lap in stat ranges is.

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14 hours ago, Crater Creator said:

 

Not only those people, but on further testing I see what you're getting at.

 

Player A: I only harvest a single block, e.g. to crack open a safe.

Analysis: As discussed, Player A that only harvests a single block will encounter this weird inflection point, where stamina usage is highest with T2 iron tools.

 

Player B: I mine until I've harvested an arbitrary number of blocks, e.g. 100 blocks.

Analysis: All the numbers just scale up, so T2 iron tools will, again, weirdly use the most stamina.

 

Player 😄 I mine every available block, e.g. until the vein of ore is exhausted.

Analysis: The vein will be some random fixed number of blocks, so the result is the same as Player B: T2 iron tools will weirdly use the most stamina.

 

Player D: I mine until I get tired (out of stamina).

Analysis: The time to exhaustion decreases smoothly across tiers: 81.7s for stone, 14.2s for iron, and 8.67s for steel.  Interestingly, Player D barely gets more yield with T3 steel tools than they do with T2 iron tools.  Mining iron ore, the iron yield was 768 for stone (tools), 277 for iron, and 250 for steel.

 

Player E: I mine for some set length of time, e.g. until sunrise.

Analysis: For a fixed duration, yields rise smoothly through the tiers.  In one hour of mining iron ore, iron yield is 485 for stone, 1112 for iron, 1680 for steel, and 3349 for the auger.  To test the stamina usage, I set max stamina to 200, got dehydrated to minimize regeneration, and chose a duration of 4 in-game minutes, because that's how long it took the worst tool to bottom out on stamina.  Stamina usage for this constant duration was 110 for stone (tools), 185 for iron, and 200 for steel.  So like Player D's yield, stamina usage rises smoothly, but T2 iron and T3 steel are almost the same.

 

Player F: I mine until I have an arbitrary amount of harvest, e.g. 1000 iron.

Analysis: With infinite stamina, Player F's elapsed time decreases smoothly with tier: 5m19s for stone, 2m29s for iron, 1m43s for steel, and 51.0s for an auger.  Without infinite stamina, the stamina usage to harvest at least 40 iron (like with Player E, we choose the max possible value before the worst tool exhausts stamina) decreases smoothly with tier: 179 for stone, 143 for iron, and 130 for steel.

 

Player G: I mine until my tool breaks.

Analysis: I didn't have the patience to actually run an experiment.  But the times will increase smoothly with tier since higher tiers have more durability, as will the yields.  These effects probably dominate any potential inflection point in the stamina usage.

 

Conclusion: There are multiple use cases (A, B, and C) with a weird inflection point where T2 iron tools use the most stamina.  There are other use cases (D and E) where T2 iron tools and T3 steel tools have nearly identical results by some measure, meaning that T3 may be significantly superior by some measures, but not every measure.  But the curves in these cases are still technically smooth, as are the curves in the other use cases studied.

 

I'm guessing you set the numbers to avoid a weird inflection point in cases D and E.  Again, T2 and T3 are nearly flat, but technically the curves are still smooth.  I agree with Solomon's supposition, that ideally the game would use numbers like he proposes to also avoid the weird inflection point for cases A, B, and C.  Then all types of players could see a smooth progression curve.

Great empirical study.

 

Nitpick: I don't think a rise from 1112 to 1680 (in case E) can be called "almost the same". While it isn't over 100% more like in the other steps it is 45% more, a factor for which a perk point would kill to get it.

 

It also should be said that as the tiers are designed for different game stages and specialisations o the player and your raw data has to be matched with the intended use cases.

 

For this we can roughly classify players into the groups STR-players and non-STR-players. For both of these groups you would have to analyze their probable situation and likely perk-distribution to find the real decisions players would be making in regard to the tool they are using.

 

For example A STR-player would likely have SexRex at 2 or 3 in mid game simply because their melee weapon also needs a lower stamina consumption. Add to this that coffee should be available in quantities in mid game this player will switch to iron pickaxe even though his stamina consumption would be higher. Empirical evidence in my group at least: Our miner took up iron pickaxe in mid game, never mind the higher stamina usage. Naturally this depends on the food situation in mid game as well.

 

What complicates the situation a little is that players tend to value a specific metric very high: How long they can dig continually with their stamina pool and regeneration. After early game for most players total stamina usage is a non-issue.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Danidas said:

Here is the real question for this, How good of a stat roll did you get on each of your tools as stats for T2 Iron, T3 Steel, and T4 Auger are random? Note that T1 Stone always have the same stats but as mentioned they can vary wildly for anything beyond the stone age. As a result it is possible to get a Iron tool with better stats then a Steel one or even a lower quality tool having better stats then one of a higher quality all mattering on where the stat rolls land and how far the over lap in stat ranges is.

That's why for all tests I took the average of three tools, at quality levels 1, 3, and 5.  Here are the numbers.

Tool Block Damage Stamina Cost Attacks/Min
Stone Axe Q1 21/23* 8 105
Stone Axe Q3 25 8 105
Stone Axe Q5 30 8 105
Stone Axe Avg 26 8 105
Iron Pickaxe Q1 36 19 64
Iron Pickaxe Q3 46 17 66
Iron Pickaxe Q5 48 18 62
Iron Pickaxe Avg 43 18 64
Steel Pickaxe Q1 64 27 54
Steel Pickaxe Q3 83 25 56
Steel Pickaxe Q5 83 26 52
Steel Pickaxe Avg 77 26 54
Auger Q1 21 0 313
Auger Q3 27 0 293
Auger Q5 27 0 303
Auger Avg 25 0 303

*I put a diamond-tipped mod on the Q1 stone axe for some tests, so that I wouldn't have to deal with the time to repair it in longer trials.

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5 hours ago, meganoth said:

Great empirical study.

Thanks!

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

Nitpick: I don't think a rise from 1112 to 1680 (in case E) can be called "almost the same". While it isn't over 100% more like in the other steps it is 45% more, a factor for which a perk point would kill to get it.

In case E, I'm saying stamina usage is almost the same: 185 for iron versus 200 for steel.  Yield does rises dramatically.

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

It also should be said that as the tiers are designed for different game stages and specialisations o the player and your raw data has to be matched with the intended use cases.

 

For this we can roughly classify players into the groups STR-players and non-STR-players. For both of these groups you would have to analyze their probable situation and likely perk-distribution to find the real decisions players would be making in regard to the tool they are using.

 

For example A STR-player would likely have SexRex at 2 or 3 in mid game simply because their melee weapon also needs a lower stamina consumption. Add to this that coffee should be available in quantities in mid game this player will switch to iron pickaxe even though his stamina consumption would be higher. Empirical evidence in my group at least: Our miner took up iron pickaxe in mid game, never mind the higher stamina usage. Naturally this depends on the food situation in mid game as well.

 

What complicates the situation a little is that players tend to value a specific metric very high: How long they can dig continually with their stamina pool and regeneration. After early game for most players total stamina usage is a non-issue.

The thing is, game stage and perk specialization/distribution have across-the-board effects.  Sexual Tyrannosaurus for instance affects stamina usage for all tools equally, no matter the tier.  Therefore, all it does is uniformly scale the curve.  It can't get a kink out of the curve.

 

I do admit that stamina regeneration sets a threshold under which you don't care anymore.  If you regenerate (made up numbers) 1000 stamina a minute, then you don't care whether your tool uses 100 or 200 or anything up to 1000 stamina per minute.

 

I think I covered the major ways people decide when they're done mining.  You say players highly value the time to exhaustion, which suggests to me that you're probably a Player D.  I'm much more of a Player C.  I would never walk away from a tree before it fell over, unless I absolutely had to deal with a zombie right then.  It would leave me deeply unsatisfied.  I can't always mine out every ore vein, because that can take weeks, but in principle my mine isn't finished until there's nothing but stone left.  If I'm harvesting sand in the desert I have no choice but to choose some other milestone, since getting all the sand is impossible, but this is the exception to the rule.

 

If I had to guess, Gazz, who actually sets these numbers, probably looks at this like Player F, whose goal is to harvest a certain amount of material.  But I still say that ideally the game would use numbers like Solomon proposes, because then it would be T1<T2<T3 for all use cases/playstyles.

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1 hour ago, Crater Creator said:

Thanks!

In case E, I'm saying stamina usage is almost the same: 185 for iron versus 200 for steel.  Yield does rises dramatically.

The thing is, game stage and perk specialization/distribution have across-the-board effects.  Sexual Tyrannosaurus for instance affects stamina usage for all tools equally, no matter the tier.  Therefore, all it does is uniformly scale the curve.  It can't get a kink out of the curve.

 

No, it doesn't get the kink out of the curve, but it changes how valuable stamina is at any point in time. It changes the relative importance in comparison to other metrics. In very early game total stamina use is the most important metric and should you get an iron axe it might even make a miner think twice before using it. As soon as your food problem is less stringent (with a prolific hunter in the group that can be very early, a farm always takes some time), absolute stamina use gets nearly irrelevant and only the relative speed of depletion and regeneration with a tool may still be important.

 

Quote

 

I do admit that stamina regeneration sets a threshold under which you don't care anymore.  If you regenerate (made up numbers) 1000 stamina a minute, then you don't care whether your tool uses 100 or 200 or anything up to 1000 stamina per minute.

 

I think I covered the major ways people decide when they're done mining.  You say players highly value the time to exhaustion, which suggests to me that you're probably a Player D.  I'm much more of a Player C.  I would never walk away from a tree before it fell over, unless I absolutely had to deal with a zombie right then.  It would leave me deeply unsatisfied.  I can't always mine out every ore vein, because that can take weeks, but in principle my mine isn't finished until there's nothing but stone left.  If I'm harvesting sand in the desert I have no choice but to choose some other milestone, since getting all the sand is impossible, but this is the exception to the rule.

 

I wasn't talking about myself. But I discussed this in the forum with quite a few players. Whenever the topic was stamina use of tools the critique was always about the player being out of stamina and then having to stop and regain stamina. For at least two players it was because it "broke the flow" of action, others were fearing the pause would get them much less yield than with a stone axe over time but mostly they just assumed without really evaluating it. Whether there is a "flow" as well as the yield in the long run depends exclusively on stamina regen and therefore on sexrex and whether he uses drinks like coffee while mining.

 

This is also a problem of your player F experiment. Assuming infinite stamina gives the correct values when stamina regen exceeds stamina use, but often this is not the case and then stamina regen can't be ignored.

 

I'm definitely Player E. If I decide to mine I usually just mine until daybreak. I don't mind the regen breaks.

 

Quote

 

If I had to guess, Gazz, who actually sets these numbers, probably looks at this like Player F, whose goal is to harvest a certain amount of material.  But I still say that ideally the game would use numbers like Solomon proposes, because then it would be T1<T2<T3 for all use cases/playstyles.

I can imagine two reasons:

1) Food consumption should increase in mid game while your farm yield rises too. I can't imagine this being of much importance though

2) It looks to me like the stone axe is made to be usable at sexrex 0, iron pickaxe is supposed to be best at sexrex 1-2 when food is no problem anymore (i.e. mid- and end-game for all non-strength players) and steel pickaxe is best at sexrex 3-4 and therefore nearly an exclusive to miners (mid- and end-game).

 

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Crater Creator said:

 I would never walk away from a tree before it fell over, unless I absolutely had to deal with a zombie right then.  It would leave me deeply unsatisfied.

We should play together sometime. I'll take a couple of chops out of 100 different trees to give you a fun quest. ;)

17 minutes ago, meganoth said:

and therefore nearly an exclusive to miners (mid- and end-game).

THIS is where the problem lies. In a traditional RPG, the Steel Pickaxe would not be able to be equiped if you were not of the class: Miner. This RPG allows anything to be used whether it is good for your skillset or not and people will use whateve they can use whether it is their best option or not.

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2 hours ago, Roland said:

THIS is where the problem lies. In a traditional RPG, the Steel Pickaxe would not be able to be equiped if you were not of the class: Miner. This RPG allows anything to be used whether it is good for your skillset or not and people will use whateve they can use whether it is their best option or not.

I get what you're saying.... but I still feel that a higher tier item should, in all circumstances, be better than a lower tier item.   Anything else is counter intuitive.

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15 hours ago, Kalen said:

I get what you're saying.... but I still feel that a higher tier item should, in all circumstances, be better than a lower tier item.   Anything else is counter intuitive.

Yeah, this sums up my feelings.  If I have to spend perk points to make the Iron better than Stone... then Iron isn't better than Stone.  The perk is.  Or the synergy is.

 

If the goal was to make any main attribute a viable playstyle, but I need to Perk up enough Str/SexRex to make Iron tools usable, my Int/Agi build is going to suffer greatly.  I should be able to pick up an Iron tool and feel that its definitely better then the Stone one, without feeling there is a minimum Perk investment to make it viable to me.  After all, I still need to do some mining to make a base, and I still need to be able to crack open safes.  Perking Strength should make that even better, but shouldn't feel absolutely necessary.

 

The whole argument that stamina regen isn't an issue mid- to late-game is predicated around the fact that EVERYBODY DOES IT, but that's because everyone feels its NECESSARY.  I resent that I need SexRex on an Agi character.  I have Flurry of Blows to recover stamina on a kill, but I can't "kill" a safe.

 

Let me put this another way.  I've leveled up every attribute as a main.  I've played games where I got to 150+ without every putting a single point in Perception, or Intellect, or Stamina, or even Agi (which hurts when I forget I don't have Parkour).  I've never gotten to even 50+ without putting a point in Strength, because it feels that necessary.

Edited by stample
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2 hours ago, stample said:

Yeah, this sums up my feelings.  If I have to spend perk points to make the Iron better than Stone... then Iron isn't better than Stone.  The perk is.  Or the synergy is.

 

If the goal was to make any main attribute a viable playstyle, but I need to Perk up enough Str/SexRex to make Iron tools usable, my Int/Agi build is going to suffer greatly.  I should be able to pick up an Iron tool and feel that its definitely better then the Stone one, without feeling there is a minimum Perk investment to make it viable to me.  After all, I still need to do some mining to make a base, and I still need to be able to crack open safes.  Perking Strength should make that even better, but shouldn't feel absolutely necessary.

 

The whole argument that stamina regen isn't an issue mid- to late-game is predicated around the fact that EVERYBODY DOES IT, but that's because everyone feels its NECESSARY.  I resent that I need SexRex on an Agi character.  I have Flurry of Blows to recover stamina on a kill, but I can't "kill" a safe.

 

Let me put this another way.  I've leveled up every attribute as a main.  I've played games where I got to 150+ without every putting a single point in Perception, or Intellect, or Stamina, or even Agi (which hurts when I forget I don't have Parkour).  I've never gotten to even 50+ without putting a point in Strength, because it feels that necessary.

 

Yes and no.

 

There are other perks where it is very hard to get around without them:

 

1) The first point in living of the land. If you don't do that you will just waste too much time with farming in the long run.

1) The perk that gives you the forge. This might change with balancing but atm your chances to find the recipe or a working forge near you early enough are slim.

(This is the point where other players will invariably post their own list of perks that are absolutely essential 😉)

 

Also mining is actually entirely optional (resource heaps and the trader can supply you well enough) and minimal mining can be done with a stone axe. It depends on your playstyle, a builder will not be able to imagine a game without mining.

 

Actually the iron axe seems to me subjectively quite usable with just sexrex 1 and coffee and is substantially better at yield per time than the stone axe (see Crator Creators Player E result).

But I'll have to check that "quite usable" in a test game again as I'm not absolutely sure that I was switching to iron axe with sexrex 1 in my last vanilla game.

 

 

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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49 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Yes and no.

 

There are other perks where it is very hard to get around without them:

 

1) The first point in living of the land. If you don't do that you will just waste too much time with farming in the long run.

1) The perk that gives you the forge. This might change with balancing but atm your chances to find the recipe or a working forge near you early enough are slim.

(This is the point where other players will invariably post their own list of perks that are absolutely essential 😉)

 

Also mining is actually entirely optional (resource heaps and the trader can supply you well enough) and minimal mining can be done with a stone axe. It depends on your playstyle, a builder will not be able to imagine a game without mining.

 

Actually the iron axe seems to me subjectively quite usable with just sexrex 1 and coffee and is substantially better at yield per time than the stone axe (see Crator Creators Player E result).

But I'll have to check that "quite usable" in a test game again as I'm not absolutely sure that I was switching to iron axe with sexrex 1 in my last vanilla game.

 

 

 

Valid points.... but doesn't address the fact that without the perks, you are actually less effective using a T2 tool over a T1 tool.

 

You don't need perks to make a T2 pistol better than a T1 pistol.... the same, IMO, should apply to tools.

 

 

Edited by Kalen (see edit history)
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1 minute ago, Kalen said:

Valid points.... but doesn't address the fact that without the perks, you are actually less effective using a T3 tool over a T1 tool.

 

You don't need perks to make a T3 pistol better than a T1 pistol.... the same, IMO, should apply to tools.

 

 

The whole stamina issue with iron and steel tools came about before the loot progression-- when you could very commonly find an iron tool on Day 1 and skip the entire primitive phase. Now you get plenty of playtime with stone tools before iron tools appear so that need to gate the iron tools through stamina is no longer in the game. Maybe they will take another look at that and make some adjustments.

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44 minutes ago, Kalen said:

Valid points.... but doesn't address the fact that without the perks, you are actually less effective using a T2 tool over a T1 tool.

 

You don't need perks to make a T2 pistol better than a T1 pistol.... the same, IMO, should apply to tools.

 

 

If you don't mind the pause every 14 seconds and food is not a problem then a T2 iron pickaxe of the same quality IS better than the T1 stone axe (in the metric yield per time)

The 14 seconds are for no coffee and at lvl 1 by the way and should increase with each level and with coffee.

 

 

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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2 minutes ago, meganoth said:

If you don't mind the pause every 14 seconds and food is not a problem then a T2 iron pickaxe of the same quality IS better than the T1 stone axe (in the metric yield per time)

The 14 seconds are for no coffee and at lvl 1 by the way and should imcrease with each level and with coffee.

 

 

 

I can tell you, anecdotally, that and iron pick certainly does not feel like an improvement.   Because stamina is an issue.... coffee should not be required to make an iron pick equal to a stone axe (I know thats not exactly what you're saying.... ) but should improve both tools equally.   As it stands right now, coffee does almost nothing to help a stone axe since its stamina drain is so low already.

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3 minutes ago, Kalen said:

I can tell you, anecdotally, that and iron pick certainly does not feel like an improvement.   Because stamina is an issue.... coffee should not be required to make an iron pick equal to a stone axe (I know thats not exactly what you're saying.... ) but should improve both tools equally.   As it stands right now, coffee does almost nothing to help a stone axe since its stamina drain is so low already.

This is why I have talked about subjective impressions as well as about the objective metrics like yield.

 

In a typical game there is the second problem that you usually have a quality 6 stone axe in hand when you find your first q1 iron pickaxe and that has just a little bit better yield for a massive increase in stamina at a time when stamina is still important. So even objectively at that point in time the pickaxe is a downgrade.

 

I tend to ignore the first low quality pickaxes as well. With or without coffee or sexrex. 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, meganoth said:

This is why I have talked about subjective impressions as well as about the objective metrics like yield.

 

In a typical game there is the second problem that you usually have a quality 6 stone axe in hand when you find your first q1 iron pickaxe and that has just a little bit better yield for a massive increase in stamina at a time when stamina is still important. So even objectively at that point in time the pickaxe is a downgrade.

 

I tend to ignore the first low quality pickaxes as well. With or without coffee or sexrex. 

 

 

You may be right.... but I'd argue how it feels is just as, if not more, important than the actual numbers.

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So you really can't compare weapons to tools, since they are separate functions. While mining and crafting are a major component of the game... they aren't essential. Combat on the other hand is. You need to kill zombies to survive, so naturally it has a different progression curve. Can the T2 weapons aren't that much of an upgrade. I prefer the AK to the M16, and 9mm to the Revolver. I haven't done a deep analysis into combat ecosystem, so I really can't say what role the T2 weapons fall into (usually early weapons are easy to get, and then progress into specialties to accommodate various play styles and then ultimately end up with a few best in class weapons).

I don't have the metrics, but I bet TFP has looked into it and determined that in a normal game play session, Iron Tools are an upgrade to Stone Tools. Yes, if you attempt something more specialized than it might feel subpar. But that's do your own player choice, and not the game balance.

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I've long been of the opinion that sexyrexy is way too over powered with how much it not only effects tool use but melee combat to the point of just about always being a must have perk. Since it effects all aspects of the game in both direct and indirect ways due to how it reduces the burdens of stamina's forced time delays. Which either forces you to take a short break of your current task or expend further resources to try to minimize via other means aka coffee.

 

As a result I would love for it to either get nerfed or preferably for more perk/gear based alternatives to be added/made more viable. Such as Fury of Blows which is Agility's alternative to it but it does nothing for stamina beyond increasing its drain until Agility 7 all while doing nothing for tools. Other things could be more perk books that instead of increasing durability reduced stamina use for tasks or gear set perks that help out with stamina use.

 

Basically make it far less important and impactful to have to invest in Strength and sexy rexy.

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5 minutes ago, DaChibii said:

 Yes, if you attempt something more specialized than it might feel subpar. But that's do your own player choice, and not the game balance.

Well, that is exactly what I'm saying the problem is.   Again, a higher tier tool should always feel better than a lower tier tool.... regardless of what you are using it for.

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