A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[MechanicalLens]

deleted

Edited March 25, 2021 by MechanicalLens (see edit history)

[RhinoW]

2 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

With the breakdown system being removed and therefore steel (presumably) getting a huge nerf to its overall health, players will be increasingly drawn to using hatch hallways, or steel hatches as walls themselves. Again I bring up the suggestion that zombies should have a 6x damage multiplier to all doors and hatches.

Damage is good as is in my opinion, however , i believe all objects in the game should have keyword labels (if they don't already) to determine % damage reduction with fists (weak), mid and high tier damaging weapon/entity. Concrete should have significant damage reduction against weaker things, currently it is completely overwhelmed by anything more than 5 zombies attacking it. I'm all for strength in numbers, but not when zombies are strong on their own.

Wood/Cloth  0% damage reduction (current)
Iron -25% damage
Cobble -40% damage
Concrete -60% damage
Steel -80% damage

Bonus health is good against a single opponent, but damage reduction would be good for normal zombie hordes and long term stability.
And then you have bruisers and the demolishers that would ignore the damage reduction, making the extra block health do its part.

Currently the only thing (at least from what I could tell) that differentiates a concrete block from a wooden block, is the extra hit points.

[meganoth]

3 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

With the breakdown system being removed and therefore steel (presumably) getting a huge nerf to its overall health, players will be increasingly drawn to using hatch hallways, or steel hatches as walls themselves. Again I bring up the suggestion that zombies should have a 6x damage multiplier to all doors and hatches.

 

Madmole himself said that for example concrete will likely be as strong as the old r concrete was. This surely includes all the hitpoints that would be lost because the breakdown system was removed. My goodness, you really must think the devs are idiots who can't even keep the balance in such a trivial case. 

 

Example:

Previously cobblestone (say 500 HP) downgraded to wood (150 HP) downgraded to nothing

Now cobblestone (650 HP) downgrades to nothing.

Nerf? None.

 

 

 

[MechanicalLens]

Just now, meganoth said:

 

Madmole himself said that for example concrete will likely be as strong as the old r concrete was. This surely includes all the hitpoints that would be lost because the breakdown system was removed. My goodness, you really must think the devs are idiots who can't even keep the balance in such a trivial case. 

 

Example:

Previously cobblestone (say 500 HP) downgraded to wood (150 HP) downgraded to nothing

Now cobblestone (650 HP) downgrades to nothing.

Nerf? None.

 

 

 

 

Nevermind then.

[meganoth]

12 minutes ago, RhinoW said:

Damage is good as is in my opinion, however , i believe all objects in the game should have keyword labels (if they don't already) to determine % damage reduction with fists (weak), mid and high tier damaging weapon/entity. Concrete should have significant damage reduction against weaker things, currently it is completely overwhelmed by anything more than 5 zombies attacking it. I'm all for strength in numbers, but not when zombies are strong on their own.

Wood/Cloth  0% damage reduction (current)
Iron -25% damage
Cobble -40% damage
Concrete -60% damage
Steel -80% damage

Bonus health is good against a single opponent, but damage reduction would be good for normal zombie hordes and long term stability.
And then you have bruisers and the demolishers that would ignore the damage reduction, making the extra block health do its part.

Currently the only thing (at least from what I could tell) that differentiates a concrete block from a wooden block, is the extra hit points.

Result would be that in later horde nights basic zombies could be practically ignored as they would do almost no damage to your structures. This simple strategy would be very effective then: Kill only higher level zombies and let the basic zombies alive.

Edited March 25, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[MechanicalLens]

1 hour ago, Urban Blackbear said:

Let me update my suggestion then. Can we get that added to the regular menu?

 

The fact it hasn't been implemented already tells me there's a legitimate reason for it. Save your breath.

[RhinoW]

21 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Result would be that in later horde nights basic zombies could be practically ignored as they would do almost no damage to your structures. This simple strategy would be very effective then: Kill only higher level zombies and let the basic zombies alive.

Radiated zombies? Ferals? Game stage integration with the damage dealt? And even so, isn't that the point of using up all your resources and hours of work to make a fortress to hold off a horde? It's not like you'll stay there scratching your b*lls and not shoot them, you know damn well players would still want to play normally.

 And getting a full concrete base takes time, I play with 2 other friends and we only get a stable concrete income by day 30 (90m days), and that is because we specialize in 3 major categories. I really can't imagine a single guy going through all the hassle to stabilize his base in full concrete, only to have 2 of it's blocks destroyed and become a free real estate for the horde.

 

Besides, that's an existing thing with automated slaughterhouses anyways...it's not like cheese strats don't already exist  (except these cost less and actually exploit pathfinding).

[Urban Blackbear]

23 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

The fact it hasn't been implemented already tells me there's a legitimate reason for it. Save your breath.

 

For what? Probably too late for that now anyway.

[meganoth]

35 minutes ago, RhinoW said:

Radiated zombies? Ferals?

 

What should that list tell me?

35 minutes ago, RhinoW said:

Game stage integration with the damage dealt? And even so, isn't that the point of using up all your resources and hours of work to make a fortress to hold off a horde? It's not like you'll stay there scratching your b*lls and not shoot them, you know damn well players would still want to play normally.

 

Then why is it neccessary to nerf basic zombies? Just shoot them before they destroy your base.

 

Lets look at it from a different viewpoint: Even in later stages you have a mix of all zombies. If you make half of them ineffective what is their use? Why not remove them completely then if they pose no danger?

 

I don't see where you show what would be gained if those weak zombies were even weaker.

 

35 minutes ago, RhinoW said:

 And getting a full concrete base takes time, I play with 2 other friends and we only get a stable concrete income by day 30 (90m days), and that is because we specialize in 3 major categories. I really can't imagine a single guy going through all the hassle to stabilize his base in full concrete, only to have 2 of it's blocks destroyed and become a free real estate for the horde.

 

Besides, that's an existing thing with automated slaughterhouses anyways...it's not like cheese strats don't already exist  (except these cost less and actually exploit pathfinding).

 

[Aero]

Why is it with each update, we take a few steps forward, but for some reason we also always have to take some steps back gameplay wise... guess now upgrading of blocks has to take a few steps back...

 

I really don't understand why time has to spend on changing things for something that works, instead of using that time for adding new things or improving existing stuff.

[RhinoW]

5 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

What should that list tell me?

 

List should tell you that there would be options to increase the difficulty, as zombies aren't just "zombies", they got 2 different variants that could serve different purposes when destroying the base, or could be tiered direct upgrades to the zombies themselves. Meaning, having a full concrete/steel base wouldn't make the game trivial (which wouldn't anyways).

 

14 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Then why is it neccessary to nerf basic zombies? Just shoot them before they destroy your base.

 

Why do you see it as a nerf? They continue to have the same impact early on, and only have a harder time destroying harder blocks, which would make sense, as you are actively trying to find better ways to make the zombies more ineffective towards your base. Also, you are bound to have blind angles on your base or have the zombies separated into 2 groups if you have an actual square fortress/wall, so shooting them isn't always constant action.

 

 

14 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Lets look at it from a different viewpoint: Even in later stages you have a mix of all zombies. If you make half of them ineffective what is their use? Why not remove them completely then if they pose no danger?

 

I don't see where you show what would be gained if those weak zombies were even weaker.

 

Wait, so by that logic, you should always have enemies that scale with you in order to give them a use. Doesn't that kind of ruin the point of progression? You never really notice the difference in that case, as there would be nothing to compare yourself to. One could argue they could be removed near the true endgame, but...that already happens mate, they are replaced with radiated versions. After (old) gamestage 300 (correct me if im wrong), 90%+ the zombies you are facing are radiated.

 

And commons aren't weak, they would become weak as a sign of your efforts. Must admit, my opinion here is totally biased because of my experience ever since the A17 pathfinding update. Zombies focus on the block with the lowest health and breach through concrete walls like butter, so much for using and upgrading military bases with concrete walls around them. Worst part? We literally had 2 open gates in front of the base, set with traps, and they ignored the open entrances to destroy 2 previously damaged concrete blocks.

 

So I still believe concrete (not even gonna mention steel) should be that impenetrable block against a small horde of trash zombies (unlike lesser blocks), and a "normal" block for actual base buster zombies. Reminding the problem here is the late game, how they still deal too much damage to concrete, screwing with damage values for the zombie itself, means it alters it's interaction with ALL blocks, not specific tiers, hence the damage reduction based on tier. Giving specific zombies the ability to consistently deal 40, while weaker zombies have a falloff, means they will always be VIP targets, and at the same time, you realize your base becomes stronger against hordes. Not just *this upgrade adds about 5 extra seconds of survival time to the block against X recurring scenario because it's health increases*. There are many more variables that make damage interesting, right now, 2-1=1 is the most basic and most boring of them all.

[Crater Creator]

13 hours ago, BobbyLee298 said:

I wasnt talking about the drone, im talking about eather repurpose the Land claim block to do this or make a station, you can still use a nail gun obviously because this feature is for later game. 

 

Ya i probably is alot of programming but thats what happens when you make a game, heck if were waiting 2 years anyway i can wait another 2 months for a feature that would improve the building part of gameplay, and its a optional feature that im sure every person who says they wont use it, would at some point.

And if ya really hate it, you can always use a nailgun to fix the 200 blocks even the ones out of sight

 

Okay then, scratch AI & animation.  For the easiest way to get this feature, I would propose this design:

• Blocks within your land claim with less than full HP are tracked in a list, which is updated any time a block within your land claim is damaged or repaired.  If this is not performant, then exclude terrain blocks.
• If your land claim block itself is at full HP, then every time you hit it with a repair tool, repair material is deducted from your inventory and 'converted' to a proportional amount of added HP, distributed among all blocks in the list that take that repair material.  The conversion rate is the same as if blocks were repaired directly.
• So that new UI isn't needed, there's just one repair algorithm.  The list of blocks is sorted by descending order of max HP, and within those categories sorted by descending order of missing HP.  For example, that means for a heavily damaged base, the first hits of your repair tool will deduct 10 wood per hit and go to repairing damaged wooden frames (50 HP), then the next hits will deduct 10 wood per hit and go to repairing damaged wood blocks (200 HP), then the next hits will deduct 10 iron per hit and go to repairing damaged scrap iron sheets (300 HP), and so on.
• Importantly, the converted repair value can overflow from one block to the next block in the list of the same material, so that you get the full value of your repair material.

 

This may not be performant though, even if optimized, so I still think a paintbrush-style repair tool that can touch multiple blocks per click has potential.

 

Edited March 25, 2021 by Crater Creator (see edit history)

[SnowDog1942]

14 minutes ago, Aero said:

I really don't understand why time has to spend on changing things for something that works, instead of using that time for adding new things or improving existing stuff.

The thing is, they do think they are improving an existing system (upgrading blocks)., by dumbing, i mean streamlining it.

[Crater Creator]

10 hours ago, meganoth said:

You obviously missed Madmoles information that drones will not have offensive capabilities. And newest info is that even the shock weapon, which I thought would mainly be crowd control, will not be included in the drone, The drone actually needs a totally new perk advantage to fit.

 

So I did; I guess it slipped my mind.  I definitely treat the other robots as weapons.  In that case I agree - whatever the drone still does do, it should scale up with the Robotics Inventor perk.

 

10 hours ago, meganoth said:

Love your new avatar icon by the way.

 

Thanks! I imagine this is how we'll all sound when we tell stories about A19 years from now.

[pregnable]

I am kinda curious about how the drone is going to work myself.  I go through lots of small spaces, and wonder if it is going to be coded to follow me properly, heh. 

 

It would be cool if you could give the drone a stun baton and it would use it, since it takes a robot slot(?) anyway.  Then maybe the attack would scale with your robotics and stun baton skill. 

 

I am still more curious about the item sets and armor sets myself. 

 

If the drone does just become storage for most players, have you guys thought about doing a crossover with Don't Starve to give it a Chester skin?  😜

[Blake_]

11 hours ago, Urban Blackbear said:

Random late night thought: Would is be possible to add a feature to the paintbrush that allows us to paint all six sides of a cube at once, sort of like the splash feature but for a single block?

That will be enhaced in the future. From a20 onwards you will be able to paint all 11 sides of a cube. It can be said that the feature is at its prime with the new update :P .

[pregnable]

2 hours ago, Aero said:

Why is it with each update, we take a few steps forward, but for some reason we also always have to take some steps back gameplay wise... guess now upgrading of blocks has to take a few steps back...

 

I really don't understand why time has to spend on changing things for something that works, instead of using that time for adding new things or improving existing stuff.

 

It is improving the existing stuff though.  There are issues with drying concrete, and performance gains to be had.  A lot of us are just used to it, but there is a lot of stuff currently in the game that is just a time sink. 

 

 

One of the things they are thinking about is new player experience, and there are plenty of players that will only play for 20-30 hours, review and be done with the game. 

 

So lets say I am a new player playing the game... if I know anything about the game at all, I am probably going to feel the time crunch, and I am also probably not going to read all of the tips and crap that popup, because there are too many, which simplification would help. 

 

So anyway, maybe I have my first small base built and I am about to fight a horde soonish.  I figured out how to upgrade to cobblestone, so logic tells me that upgrades just happen instantly. 

 

I happen to find some concrete and see it made a dark concrete block.  "Oh cool, concrete is kinda dark looking", probably not even thinking or noticing that it is wet and needs to dry.  The first upgrade might have even been by mistake. 

 

I see my trader has a bunch of concrete so I buy it, and just before the horde shows up I use almost all of it and upgrade as much of my base as I can.  "Wow, my base looks cool and is stronger now."

 

The horde shows up and I go to repair... "wut, this looks as weak as it did before, is this a bug?... oh, and now it requires concrete to repair, which I am out of."  Breaks, die rage quit. 

 

Maybe they keep playing and then figure out when it dries that that is what happened, and its not a bug, so then they decide they want to craft some... so they look to see what it takes.

 

"Okay, so I need a forge, a workbench, and a cement mixer", if they even figure that out in a timely manner.  Then they look to see what they need and might even miss what schematics are at that point, so they just think they need to spend a bunch of skill points to get all this crap. 

 

If that did not make them rage quit, they then figure out how to make all the stuff, and where to get the parts, and that they have to cook stone... "Finally now I can make concrete!"

 

So they have their base, which is fine and structurally sound... aaannnnnnddd, they upgrade it all to wet concrete, lol.  They come back after doing a short quest or something and find that half of their base has fallen apart. 

 

They missed the part where wet concrete has different structural integrity and then write a bad review and or report it as a bug.... lol. 

 

 

They can make it easier to understand and avoid some of this with simplifications... and what do we lose?.... not much really... most of that stuff was just a time sink anyway, and we have more time to quest, fight bandits and do the games story mode, when it comes out. 

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, RhinoW said:

 

List should tell you that there would be options to increase the difficulty, as zombies aren't just "zombies", they got 2 different variants that could serve different purposes when destroying the base, or could be tiered direct upgrades to the zombies themselves. Meaning, having a full concrete/steel base wouldn't make the game trivial (which wouldn't anyways).

 

 

Why do you see it as a nerf? They continue to have the same impact early on, and only have a harder time destroying harder blocks, which would make sense, as you are actively trying to find better ways to make the zombies more ineffective towards your base. Also, you are bound to have blind angles on your base or have the zombies separated into 2 groups if you have an actual square fortress/wall, so shooting them isn't always constant action.

 

It is a nerf. Basic zombies are weaker as soon as you can build better materials.

 

 

Quote

Wait, so by that logic, you should always have enemies that scale with you in order to give them a use.

 

I don't see how this would follow. There is a difference between weaker zombies being still dangerous to your base in masses (like now) and weaker zombies being as good as ineffective against the base (like you want it). I don't want the basic zombies to scale with me, I like it fine as it is.

 

Quote

Doesn't that kind of ruin the point of progression? You never really notice the difference in that case, as there would be nothing to compare yourself to. One could argue they could be removed near the true endgame, but...that already happens mate, they are replaced with radiated versions. After (old) gamestage 300 (correct me if im wrong), 90%+ the zombies you are facing are radiated.

 

And commons aren't weak, they would become weak as a sign of your efforts. Must admit, my opinion here is totally biased because of my experience ever since the A17 pathfinding update. Zombies focus on the block with the lowest health and breach through concrete walls like butter, so much for using and upgrading military bases with concrete walls around them. Worst part? We literally had 2 open gates in front of the base, set with traps, and they ignored the open entrances to destroy 2 previously damaged concrete blocks.

 

Ok, lets assume TFP implements your idea. Then what would change in that scenario? Nothing, since the stronger zombies would still breach through that concrete wall with lowest health and obliterate you.

 

 

Quote

 

So I still believe concrete (not even gonna mention steel) should be that impenetrable block against a small horde of trash zombies (unlike lesser blocks), and a "normal" block for actual base buster zombies. Reminding the problem here is the late game, how they still deal too much damage to concrete, screwing with damage values for the zombie itself, means it alters it's interaction with ALL blocks, not specific tiers, hence the damage reduction based on tier. Giving specific zombies the ability to consistently deal 40, while weaker zombies have a falloff, means they will always be VIP targets, and at the same time, you realize your base becomes stronger against hordes. Not just *this upgrade adds about 5 extra seconds of survival time to the block against X recurring scenario because it's health increases*. There are many more variables that make damage interesting, right now, 2-1=1 is the most basic and most boring of them all.

 

Ok.

Now I really don't see (in vanilla) that upgrading to concrete gives you just 5 extra seconds. From cobblestone to reinforced concrete is a factor of >3 in hitpoints if I'm not mistaken. If zombies could destroy that block in 5 seconds, they already could destroy the cobblestone in less than 2, you would have been toast the previous horde night. Are you playing on insane? I really don't see that happening in lower difficulties.

 

If this was just exaggeration: Weaker zombies are already weaker. A normal zombie does 8 block damage while a feral already does 24 and the cop 100. You need a lot of normal zombies even with group bonus to destroy a reinforced concrete block while ferals are 3 times as effective and cops 12 times, and they get the group bonus as well, even from normal zombies. That is a seriously steep progression and you want that even steeper?

 

If you have the feeling zombies do too much damage, simply turn down the difficulty.

 

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[pregnable]

17 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Now I really don't see (in vanilla) that upgrading to concrete gives you just 5 extra seconds. From cobblestone to reinforced concrete is a factor of >3 in hitpoints if I'm not mistaken. If zombies could destroy that block in 5 seconds, they already could destroy the cobblestone in less than 2, you would have been toast the previous horde night. Are you playing on insane? I really don't see that happening in lower difficulties.

 

If this was just exaggeration: Weaker zombies are already weaker. A normal zombie does 8 block damage while a feral already does 24 and the cop 100. You need a lot of normal zombies even with group bonus to destroy a reinforced concrete block while ferals are 3 times as effective and cops 12 times, and they get the group bonus as well, even from normal zombies. That is a seriously steep progression and you want that even steeper?

 

If you have the feeling zombies do too much damage, simply turn down the difficulty.

 

 

 

Yeah, I used to kinda complain about how fast zombies destroy blocks, but really it was just because I wanted base designs where I did not have to actively repair. 

 

Even on the hardest settings though, it is not that bad, and I still usually need less that 300 concrete each horde night. 

 

 

You also do not really even need a base at all on the hardest settings... I am just using it for fun, and because the exp is higher. 

 

 

This is just to demonstrate how you can fight some of the hardest hordes possible, on max settings, without a base, and not really even get hit if you do not want to. 

[Guppycur]

6 hours ago, Aero said:

Why is it with each update, we take a few steps forward, but for some reason we also always have to take some steps back gameplay wise... guess now upgrading of blocks has to take a few steps back...

 

I really don't understand why time has to spend on changing things for something that works, instead of using that time for adding new things or improving existing stuff.

Consoles.

5 hours ago, pregnable said:

I am kinda curious about how the drone is going to work myself.  I go through lots of small spaces, and wonder if it is going to be coded to follow me properly, heh. 

 

I have a robot dog mod that follows me; basically it goes where it can, and when it can't, it acts like a zombie that can't path to you.  But it walks.

 

With a flying drone, I imagine it'll just fly as close as it CAN get, or you'll need to tell it to "stay".

[BobbyLee298]

41 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

Consoles.

TFP removing assets and "dumbing down"""""" stuff so they can do a direct port to consoles with minim rework is how i see it

Edited March 26, 2021 by BobbyLee298 (see edit history)

[MechanicalLens]

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

If you have the feeling zombies do too much damage, simply turn down the difficulty.

 

Not even that would be needed. There is a slider designed exactly for this "predicament"; it's called AI Blood Moon Block Damage.

[hiemfire]

On 3/25/2021 at 5:50 AM, meganoth said:

Think of a drone as it is planned now, just with a mod that repairs blocks in a small radius around it.

Now I'm imagining loading up the drone with scrap iron, wood and cobble during a salvage session, turning my back and hearing it "repair" the POI I'm scavenging in... They may just be reusing the symbol, but it shows the same grey circle with the up arrow currently both when repairing and upgrading blocks, so the game may consider both to be the same thing.

It'll also might make tearing down sinks and vending machines (as examples) a pain in the ass if you happen to have the components needed to repair them stocked in the drone.

Edited March 26, 2021 by hiemfire (see edit history)

[meganoth]

3 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

Now I'm imagining loading up the drone with scrap iron, wood and cobble during a salvage session, turning my back and hearing it "repair" the POI I'm scavenging in... They may just be reusing the symbol, but it shows the same grey circle with the up arrow currently both when repairing and upgrading blocks, so the game may consider both to be the same thing.

This would be your contribution to rebuilding the civilization 😁

 

Seriously, AFAIK the game knows which blocks are player built.

 

[faatal]

14 hours ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

Not even that would be needed. There is a slider designed exactly for this "predicament"; it's called AI Blood Moon Block Damage.

I've used that slider in my own games. Only regret not putting more choices for values. I'd prefer 5 or 10 % increments for many of our options. Someday.