A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[meganoth]

6 hours ago, Aldranon said:

 

Wow, dual turrets are SO expensive for the benefits, IMO.  Yes BM defense is a breeze with up to 8 sledge turrets (2 per side), but POI clearing is not as fast as certain builds. 

Agility says "Welcome to the club"

 

[BFT2020]

45 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Agility says "Welcome to the club"

 

I never had an issue with time clearing POIs with either the agility build or intelligence build.  By the time I am doing the higher level POIs (T4 or T5), I should have spec'd out enough in either tree with decent gear.  Then again, the longest time for me in the POIs is the looting / salvaging the POI after I clear it out.

12 hours ago, Khalagar said:

 

That is the point of the conversation, yes. If you are making a build focused on one attribute (like most people do when not playing to day nine thousand) the other attributes can all stand on their own besides int.

If your choice is just to concentrate on one attribute, that is your decision.  It doesn't mean that TFP have to balance the game for your decisions.   I think a lot of this argument is based on Min/Maxing.  Just because you don't perk out specific weapons doesn't make them totally useless.  If you are concentrating an intelligence build, you can deploy two turrets at once with significant specs boosts that non-intelligent tree people can do.  Throw in the point that Roland has made, you can effectively field up to three range weapons while everyone else is limited to one (throw in the fact that the junk turrets only require scrap iron to make the ammo).  In addition, it's not like you can't use weapons if you haven't put any perks into them.  I am still using pistols and SMGs at Day 95 and I have yet to sink a single point in Gunslinger.  They are far from being useless.

 

Also, Day 95 is nowhere near Day 9000.  When you go that route, that weakens your argument because you are artificially making up weaknesses / obstacles to support your argument.  

[Morloc]

18 hours ago, Roland said:

the developers are not stupid enough to fall for it...

 

Indeed. 

I believe the correct way to fool the developers is to begin your post with "I'm trying to dispel a rumor about _________"

 

-Morloc

[Jost Amman]

I think most people here are looking at the "problem" from the wrong perspective IMO.

Who the heck does ever do a pure build?? Do you really play 7D2D putting points EXCLUSIVELY in one tree??

 

You can do INT and get a couple levels in STR, so you can do decent perked damage with a shotty.

Same way... you can play PER and get the first 3 levels of INT and use turrets. And so on and so forth...

[Aldranon]

Well, for my playstyle, Int and Agility come out slow from the starting gate.  

Int has a lot of fun stuff and really good asymmetrical fighting methods once your into the game a bit.

 

I cant play Agility well, but it's probably the most realistic hero and I would watch that type in a movie for example.  

 

24 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

I think most people here are looking at the "problem" from the wrong perspective IMO.

Who the heck does ever do a pure build?? Do you really play 7D2D putting points EXCLUSIVELY in one tree??

 

You can do INT and get a couple levels in STR, so you can do decent perked damage with a shotty.

Same way... you can play PER and get the first 3 levels of INT and use turrets. And so on and so forth...

 

80% of points spent on one attribute is focused IMO.  Any more and a SP person would be missing out one some important buffs.  

Edited March 17, 2021 by Aldranon (see edit history)

[Laz Man]

6 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

I will miss the barking sound when shooting the BB... 

Im sure the pipe shotgun will be fun but nothing will erase my memories of firing the blundy for the first time....unless they eventually add a handheld cannonball gun one day....😅

 

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[doughphunghus]

12 hours ago, Roland said:

The blunderbuss and its ammo are coming to an end with A19

NOOoOoooopooo...... 

 

oh well. I will say “finding a blunderbuss” is extremely unlikely in real life, and finding two... three?! Of... the exact same blunderbuss!!! is even more unlikely ..  but the ability to craft a “junk gun that shoots junk like a blunderbuss” would be nice to keep around though so I hope it makes a comeback, hopefully with some higher tier ammo just to make it fun. Having to find or craft shells for a junk gun is good... just miss that “feels like something I would actually try to make... if I didn’t have any real ammo”. Sure, the junk turret does this, but “automated aim rapid fire junk turret” is not something I would likely attempt to make in the end days (because It would likely one day just accidentally shoot me and my cat) even though I do love the junk turret.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, doughphunghus said:

NOOoOoooopooo...... 

 

oh well. I will say “finding a blunderbuss” is extremely unlikely in real life, and finding two... three?! Of... the exact same blunderbuss!!! is even more unlikely ..  but the ability to craft a “junk gun that shoots junk like a blunderbuss” would be nice to keep around though so I hope it makes a comeback, hopefully with some higher tier ammo just to make it fun. Having to find or craft shells for a junk gun is good... just miss that “feels like something I would actually try to make... if I didn’t have any real ammo”. Sure, the junk turret does this, but “automated aim rapid fire junk turret” is not something I would likely attempt to make in the end days (because It would likely one day just accidentally shoot me and my cat) even though I do love the junk turret.

The pipe shotgun looks pretty junky and definitely like it was jury-rigged together. Functionally it is the same as the blunderbuss but uses up shotgun ammo. There’s lots of shotgun ammo to be found...

[seven]

I hope someone will make a mod to bring the blunderbuss back. It's my favorite gun.

[uncle.heavy]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

There’s lots of shotgun ammo to be found...

This is all I ever needed to know. A20 might as well be released right tomorrow.

 

Though, in the greater context, agility suits me a lot better than strength.

If only one could actually pull the trigger on a gun one has not perked to the max...

[Matt115]

22 hours ago, SnowDog1942 said:

Maybe the zombies can be streamlined into 3 versions, because 3 is magic, and more is too complex.  

 

Normal zombie, fat zombie (slow/strong), and skinny zombie (fast/weak).  
 

 

Well, child zombie could be high like spider zombie but "slow" as normal - weaker damge that normal zombie but smaller so harder to hit. Riot Police can reduce normal ammo damage so you need FMJ or sledgehammer etc.

[Ringkeeper]

On 3/13/2021 at 7:28 PM, pregnable said:

 

Sounds good.  +1 for the idea. 

 

Seriously though, I am sure the changes will be fine.  There will just be more gathering and crafting, instead of gathering, waiting, then crafting. 

 

A lot of that stuff is just a time sink.  They can probably make it less confusing and get more players into the game as well. 

 

Hopefully we will have better stuff to do with that time, like random encounters, bandits, and more quests.

 

while i am against unnecessary time sink, some time sink in the game is actually good. Take wet concrete for example. Do i get now iron, melt it, craft rebar frames or do i go cobblestone -> wet concrete -> waiting for drying -> reinforced concrete? Which is faster? Horde comes in 4h.... 

 

Time is the only valuable resource in the game. All the rest (exception maybe brass, but even that via trader jobs -> door nobs or melting coins) is unlimited.

 

So some things, that force you to choose what you do with your little time, are needed.

[Aldranon]

7D2D should have an option for only headshots to kill zombies.

Why do many movies have the only way to kill a zombie be a headshot?

 

There are only three ways a person can die from a gunshot wound. 

The most common cause is "Hydraulic failure" (they bleed to death).

The others two are if both lungs collapse and "Traumatic nerve damage".

 

So if zombies are dead (no breathing or pulse)  Then the only "real" way to stop them is to destroy the nervous system. 

 

I'm too lazy to start a new thread, so...

 

[Roland]

26 minutes ago, Aldranon said:

I'm too lazy to start a new thread, so...

Or an unexplored discussion topic....

[Blake_]

4 hours ago, Ringkeeper said:

 

while i am against unnecessary time sink, some time sink in the game is actually good. Take wet concrete for example. Do i get now iron, melt it, craft rebar frames or do i go cobblestone -> wet concrete -> waiting for drying -> reinforced concrete? Which is faster? Horde comes in 4h.... 

 

Time is the only valuable resource in the game. All the rest (exception maybe brass, but even that via trader jobs -> door nobs or melting coins) is unlimited.

 

So some things, that force you to choose what you do with your little time, are needed.

I like the wet concrete mechanic. I won't miss it if it's gone, so while I agree with you, the time sink and tactical value it offers is just not consistent to other high hp blocks that you could  just make instantly. We already have to wait for items to craft, and that is enough. A steel block would take time to craft and quite a few resources, so it really is a simplification, arguably a "good enough" one . The benefits are quite a few, like performance gains (less calculations where it matters) + easier to understand + less OCD panic from that hidden corner that you don't know if it's dry .... etc. The building-survival part has enough in its plate with repairing and the full shape menu crafting to bother with extra CPU overhead just because it might not dry in time but worry not it still is as strong as cobblestone (bruh).

[meganoth]

50 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

I like the wet concrete mechanic. I won't miss it if it's gone, so while I agree with you, the time sink and tactical value it offers is just not consistent to other high hp blocks that you could  just make instantly. We already have to wait for items to craft, and that is enough. A steel block would take time to craft and quite a few resources, so it really is a simplification, arguably a "good enough" one . The benefits are quite a few, like performance gains (less calculations where it matters) + easier to understand + less OCD panic from that hidden corner that you don't know if it's dry .... etc. The building-survival part has enough in its plate with repairing and the full shape menu crafting to bother with extra CPU overhead just because it might not dry in time but worry not it still is as strong as cobblestone (bruh).

Don't sweat over performance, event-handling done right is very very cheap. You have the drying events in a list sorted by time (sort is done by a fast insertion sort) and each tick just check the first entry whether it is due.

 

 

[Jost Amman]

24 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

The new Trader Joel is looking great.

 

 

 

I'll post it on Steam... thanks!

[MechanicalLens]

3 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

I'll post it on Steam... thanks!

 

Adam's a little bit late with this one.

[Roland]

16 hours ago, pregnable said:

Have there been any advances where you guys feel like you will be able to up the default max alive zombie count to 16, or greater?

Doubtful this will happen. It is more about gamer psychology than tech limitations. 
 

Gamers are more likely to rage quit and never play a game again and give that game a bad review rather than turn the difficulty down to an easier setting where they will have more fun. But gamers WILL turn the difficulty up on a game they find too easy for them and will often brag about the fact that they play at a higher than default difficulty setting whenever the opportunity presents itself. 
 

That’s why default difficulty was changed from Nomad to Adventurer and why default max alive is more likely to move to 4 than it is to 16 if it needs to change at all. 

[mstdv inc]

22 minutes ago, Roland said:

Сомнительно, что это произойдет. Речь идет скорее о психологии геймера, чем о технических ограничениях.
 

Геймеры с большей вероятностью в ярости бросят игру, никогда больше не будут играть в нее и дадут ей плохой отзыв, а не уменьшат сложность до более легкой настройки, где они будут получать больше удовольствия. Но геймеры будут увеличивать сложность в игре, которую сочтут слишком легкой для себя, и часто будут хвастаться тем фактом, что они играют на более высоком уровне сложности, чем по умолчанию, всякий раз, когда представится такая возможность.
 

Вот почему сложность по умолчанию была изменена с Nomad на Adventurer и почему default max alive с большей вероятностью переместится на 4, чем на 16, если она вообще должна измениться.

People who have looked at the review and bought 7DTD understand that this game is about survival, construction and crafting, so I have doubts that people are quitting the game because of the complexity of the default world settings. As I observe from the reviews of beginners, most often they refuse to play because of problems with the frame rate on the actual hardware. I really hope that the game will run more smoothly in A20.The rest of the changes are good enough as it is.

Edited March 18, 2021 by mstdv inc (see edit history)

[MechanicalLens]

35 minutes ago, Roland said:

Doubtful this will happen. It is more about gamer psychology than tech limitations. 
 

Gamers are more likely to rage quit and never play a game again and give that game a bad review rather than turn the difficulty down to an easier setting where they will have more fun. But gamers WILL turn the difficulty up on a game they find too easy for them and will often brag about the fact that they play at a higher than default difficulty setting whenever the opportunity presents itself. 
 

That’s why default difficulty was changed from Nomad to Adventurer and why default max alive is more likely to move to 4 than it is to 16 if it needs to change at all. 

 

By this logic then switching the default difficulty to Scavenger and the default number of zombies to 4 would make the most amount of sense, yes.  Perhaps the default zombie speed at night should be set to walk? I'm being honest here (no sarcasm/mockery intended), I can see a conversation between two people where one brags that they have sprinting zombies at nighttime instead of walking ones so that nighttime isn't a cakewalk for them. Would you say the final point would be relevant?

 

Not taking sides here, just spitballing.

 

Edit: To add on further, by this logic, why would the lowest possible settings NOT be the default? Just speaking hypothetically here. You said it yourself, and I fully believe you, players very often downgrade below default settings, and consider it an act of shame. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see very few players playing on 4 zombies, walking at night, max alive, etc. Perhaps if those were made the standard settings, it would create a longer path for players to progress through. It might even increase the amount of time they spend playing the game.

Edited March 18, 2021 by MechanicalLens (see edit history)

[Roland]

3 minutes ago, mstdv inc said:

so I have doubts that people are quitting the game because of the complexity of the default world settings

That’s because the default was lowered a couple of years ago now so the number of complaints about the game being too hard are much more scarce now—you’re correct. But they were plentiful back in the day as well as lots of conversations on the forum suggesting that people turn down the difficulty when they complained that the game was “unfair”. 
 

You can believe what you want but I have the benefit of having seen things both before and after the default difficulty change. 
 

Like I said, people like you will, at an instant, be willing to come here and admit that the game is sooooo easy and you can only get enjoyment by playing insane nightmare 64 max alive 25% loot permadeath. Those who struggle with surviving even at the present settings don’t like to brag about that fact. Instead they call the game “crap” and “poorly balanced” and “unfair”. 
 

the game has ALWAYS had frame rate issues on certain hardware in the past, there were bad reviews about bad performance AND due to difficulty. These days, as you admitted, most bad reviews are about bad frame rates and that is because of a very smart change to the default difficulty that was made. 

[Roland]

9 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

By this logic then switching the default difficulty to Scavenger and the default number of zombies to 4 would make the most amount of sense, yes.  Perhaps the default zombie speed at night should be set to walk? I'm being honest here (no sarcasm/mockery intended), I can see a conversation between two people where one brags that they have sprinting zombies at nighttime instead of walking ones so that nighttime isn't a cakewalk for them. Would you say the final point would be relevant?

 

Not taking sides here, just spitballing.

Sure, they could push the default even more towards the casual end of the spectrum but if what they have done so far hits the sweet spot of being seen as a gritty unforgiving and challenging survival game by the larger population and yet it is still approachable by most, then there is no need. 
 

We could make the default Warrior and 16 max alive and jogging speed during the day and we would still get gamers coming around wanting to post, “This game is such a cakewalk...” but for the majority, they would be dying left and right on Day 1 and never put in the time needed to surmount the learning curve. 
 

These days, people will refund the game within their two-hour window if they can’t handle the default difficulty rather than turn down the difficulty and play “baby” mode. 

[Guppycur]

52 minutes ago, Roland said:

Gamers are more likely to rage quit and never play a game again and give that game a bad review rather than turn the difficulty down to an easier setting where they will have more fun.

Yeh, that's why the game's player base back when it was hard was so small and the reviews were so poor.

 

...oh wait. 😉

 

[MechanicalLens]

5 minutes ago, Adam the Waster said:

Can't wait to trade all my rocks from my mine to this sexy beast

 

You're about 12 hours too late. 😛