A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[MechanicalLens]

3 hours ago, Khalagar said:

With all the weapon tweaking, has there been any testing and balancing on the Shotgun pellets for the Junk Turret? They really need some love IMO as there's basically no reason to spend so many resources crafting them over just crafting normal shotgun shells. The shotgun ammo has really bad return on investment because a high level Junk Turret fires REALLY fast and will blow the entire stock of shotgun ammo ridiculously quickly, and each shell does pathetic damage compared to a quality 1 unperked shotgun even when maxed out on the Junk Turret skills

 

It's a cool concept for sure, and since the work is already done implementing it, some number tweaks to make it a bit more appealing would be great!

 

Thank you for letting me know about that. I've gone back to A18 vanilla until A20 comes out but I'll be sure NOT to craft the turret shells for the robotic turret.

[pregnable]

3 hours ago, Khalagar said:

With all the weapon tweaking, has there been any testing and balancing on the Shotgun pellets for the Junk Turret? They really need some love IMO as there's basically no reason to spend so many resources crafting them over just crafting normal shotgun shells. The shotgun ammo has really bad return on investment because a high level Junk Turret fires REALLY fast and will blow the entire stock of shotgun ammo ridiculously quickly, and each shell does pathetic damage compared to a quality 1 unperked shotgun even when maxed out on the Junk Turret skills

 

It's a cool concept for sure, and since the work is already done implementing it, some number tweaks to make it a bit more appealing would be great!

 

Yeah, it would also be cool if they were slightly better when used in your hands as a primary weapon. 

 

Probably would not change the way I play now though, since I am a sledge boy... but having the robotic sledge and turret as primary options would be cool. 

[MechanicalLens]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

It is a bother because it means I have to download 19.4 and play it in order to compare... I'll do it sometime this week.

 

My solution? Copy and paste your A20 files onto an external SSD, then delete the original files on your set-up and reinstall A19. When you wish to go back to A20, repeat the same process. You wouldn't believe how few people connect the dots I presented here, so there you go.  Hope I helped.  If you have a better method though, good show.

[Roland]

8 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

My solution? Copy and paste your A20 files onto an external SSD, then delete the original files on your set-up and reinstall A19. When you wish to go back to A20, repeat the same process. You wouldn't believe how few people connect the dots I presented here, so there you go.  Hope I helped.  If you have a better method though, good show.

That won't really work because A20 is in flux. Every few days there is a new build number. However, I could use the mod launcher to download 19.4 and then I could have both versions available at the same time. Blessings to @sphereii

[BFT2020]

4 hours ago, Khalagar said:

With all the weapon tweaking, has there been any testing and balancing on the Shotgun pellets for the Junk Turret? They really need some love IMO as there's basically no reason to spend so many resources crafting them over just crafting normal shotgun shells. The shotgun ammo has really bad return on investment because a high level Junk Turret fires REALLY fast and will blow the entire stock of shotgun ammo ridiculously quickly, and each shell does pathetic damage compared to a quality 1 unperked shotgun even when maxed out on the Junk Turret skills

 

It's a cool concept for sure, and since the work is already done implementing it, some number tweaks to make it a bit more appealing would be great!

Curious, have you ever done the shotgun pellets with the shotgun choke mode to see if it improves it?  I have only done normal shells for the turret so far.

[Khalagar]

1 hour ago, pregnable said:

 

Yeah, it would also be cool if they were slightly better when used in your hands as a primary weapon. 

 

I almost said exactly that but didn't want to get into the "suggested features" type territory lol. I think them being balanced around hipfiring the Robotic Turret when in handheld mode would give them a pretty solid niche where you could even carry three junk turrets. Two to place, and one to hold for your primary weapon, although it would be hardpressed to compete with the Autoshottie which just kind of obliterates everything else in the game min / max wise

 

30 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

Curious, have you ever done the shotgun pellets with the shotgun choke mode to see if it improves it?  I have only done normal shells for the turret so far.

 

I'll need to do another round of testing to see if you can even put the shotgun choke mod on the turret or if it makes a difference at all when placed as many mods don't seem to, but I was testing a fully modded junk turret with all the perks against some basic fodder vs even just a double barrel and the resource expenditure was . . . not favorable lol

 

The junk turret's fire speed almost works against it where it will just spray out a ton of shells when a double barrel or pump shotgun could do the same job with like 4 shells total. The cost difference of shotgun shells vs shotgun junk ammo isn't really that high, not enough to justify using the lead for the turret shells instead of real shotgun ones

 

[meganoth]

4 hours ago, Khalagar said:

 

I almost said exactly that but didn't want to get into the "suggested features" type territory lol. I think them being balanced around hipfiring the Robotic Turret when in handheld mode would give them a pretty solid niche where you could even carry three junk turrets. Two to place, and one to hold for your primary weapon, although it would be hardpressed to compete with the Autoshottie which just kind of obliterates everything else in the game min / max wise

 

 

I'll need to do another round of testing to see if you can even put the shotgun choke mod on the turret or if it makes a difference at all when placed as many mods don't seem to, but I was testing a fully modded junk turret with all the perks against some basic fodder vs even just a double barrel and the resource expenditure was . . . not favorable lol

 

The junk turret's fire speed almost works against it where it will just spray out a ton of shells when a double barrel or pump shotgun could do the same job with like 4 shells total. The cost difference of shotgun shells vs shotgun junk ammo isn't really that high, not enough to justify using the lead for the turret shells instead of real shotgun ones

 

 

At what distance did you test? It seems to me the turret is disadvantaged in the game because it shoots while the zombie is still too far away. While the player has the sense to use the shotgun on short range mainly.

 

[Aldranon]

14 hours ago, Morloc said:

 

 

P0rgress!

 

 

 

-Morloc

 

 

I bet you get good frame rate and all things are probably crafted in the fireplace as its done IRL!

Maybe actually aiming your weapon is too complex as well.  Auto-clickers for the win!

 

[BFT2020]

6 hours ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

So basically, despite the fact this is where balance was not focused, the four other attributes could hold their own solo, to varying degrees (depending on the type of weapon), but the Intellect built would have the most trouble in this regard. M60 vs horde? Easy. Shotgun vs horde? No problem. Sniper + explosives vs horde? Doable. Pistols + SMG against horde? A cakewalk. Turrets vs horde? Obscenely difficult.

 

Not complaining, just making an observation.

What horde are you talking about?  Bloodmoon or a wandering horde?  Junk turrets are just to assist, not to be able to do all the work (right now I am at Day 95 so I only use the sledge turrets lower than my catwalk so not to trigger demolishers).

 

I recently tried the auto turret with the shell ammo, shotgun choke, drum magazine, cripple mod, and 3 round burst (I swapped out the full auto mod to see how the burst mod works with the turrets).  While working at night on the outside of my base, I got jumped by a screamer that got off her scream.  I ended up laying down the junk turret as they were running my way and it took care of them as I was moving around shooting them 44 cal.  I didn't feel that it wasn't contributing as I had to deal with a couple of radiated and the rest were ferals.

 

However, I use it the same way I use my shotgun turrets.  I set them (and the junk shottie) up so that they are close range firing; not giving them the option of firing at long ranges.  Sometimes the key is how you use them, not just the fact that you are using them.

[JCrook1028]

19 hours ago, Roland said:

That won't really work because A20 is in flux. Every few days there is a new build number. However, I could use the mod launcher to download 19.4 and then I could have both versions available at the same time. Blessings to @sphereii

Or simply rename the 19.4 folder.

[PoloPoPo]

Just found out about the new version. Basically a new skin for a zombie and a few new sounds added from December to March. Wow that's frustrating. No idea what those things are that have been fixed but I don't think I would notice any of them. Maybe I'll start a new savegame in 2022 then.

[JCrook1028]

7 hours ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

So basically, despite the fact this is where balance was not focused, the four other attributes could hold their own solo, to varying degrees (depending on the type of weapon), but the Intellect built would have the most trouble in this regard. M60 vs horde? Easy. Shotgun vs horde? No problem. Sniper + explosives vs horde? Doable. Pistols + SMG against horde? A cakewalk. Turrets vs horde? Obscenely difficult.

 

Not complaining, just making an observation.

Intellect has more weapons than the turrets. They specialize in the traps as well.

[Roland]

21 minutes ago, PoloPoPo said:

Maybe I'll start a new savegame in 2022 then.

 

Oh good. I was just waiting for your date so I could update my spreadsheet. I'll just pencil it in, though, since you said "maybe"....

[Roland]

 

8 hours ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

So basically, despite the fact this is where balance was not focused, the four other attributes could hold their own solo, to varying degrees (depending on the type of weapon), but the Intellect built would have the most trouble in this regard. M60 vs horde? Easy. Shotgun vs horde? No problem. Sniper + explosives vs horde? Doable. Pistols + SMG against horde? A cakewalk. Turrets vs horde? Obscenely difficult.

 

Not complaining, just making an observation.

 

You can use any weapon unperked along with the turret and have a significant advantage. It is an error to think that the turret by itself should be on equal ground with the other weapons because as Gazz said, nobody just stands and watches the turrets fire. The turrets add to your own firepower and just because you are doing an intellect build and so have no perks in an an AK-47, an AK-47 plus a couple of turrets is great. An AK-47 plus a couple of turrets that are each equally powerful as an AK-47 would be grossly OP.

 

People need to stop asking for more powerful intellect weapons because the developers are not stupid enough to fall for it...

 

I can throw a bone to all the intellect build fans who hate their weapons being less powerful than the other build counterparts:  Once you use the new pipe baton you may never use the wooden club again. (That's assuming, of course, @Gazz doesn't reconfigure the numbers on the pipe baton....)

Edited March 16, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)

[pregnable]

22 hours ago, Khalagar said:

 

I almost said exactly that but didn't want to get into the "suggested features" type territory lol. I think them being balanced around hipfiring the Robotic Turret when in handheld mode would give them a pretty solid niche where you could even carry three junk turrets. Two to place, and one to hold for your primary weapon, although it would be hardpressed to compete with the Autoshottie which just kind of obliterates everything else in the game min / max wise

 

 

Yeah, it would be cool if they were buffed when you spec into them and are holding them as your primary weapon.  I think with a fully modded Q6 junk turret, I could 1 shot or almost 1 shot the very weakest zombie on nomad. 

 

Slightly more damage and a way to increase the range while holding it would be pretty nice. 

 

 

Oh yeah, and I think I told you before about how I was using the bone knife with the game on insane, nightmare, 64, horde every night, but that I found out that I could actually just use a str build.  I mentioned that I was going to start trying to sledge because it would probably be pretty great and the knockdown would save on repairs. 

 

Well, it totally does, lel.  I am a huge fan of the sledge now.  Got a few videos of my horde nights if interested. 

 

I am still 50/50 on if I will 1 point the bone knife at the start though.  Plus, I am not sure if the bleeding slow effect is actually working atm.  Does not really seem to be. 

[MechanicalLens]

3 hours ago, Roland said:

 

 

You can use any weapon unperked along with the turret and have a significant advantage. It is an error to think that the turret by itself should be on equal ground with the other weapons because as Gazz said, nobody just stands and watches the turrets fire. The turrets add to your own firepower and just because you are doing an intellect build and so have no perks in an an AK-47, an AK-47 plus a couple of turrets is great. An AK-47 plus a couple of turrets that are each equally powerful as an AK-47 would be grossly OP.

 

People need to stop asking for more powerful intellect weapons because the developers are not stupid enough to fall for it...

 

I can throw a bone to all the intellect build fans who hate their weapons being less powerful than the other build counterparts:  Once you use the new pipe baton you may never use the wooden club again. (That's assuming, of course, @Gazz doesn't reconfigure the numbers on the pipe baton....)

 

My intent wasn't to start a discussion regarding balance tweaks or the "need" for Intellect to have more powerful weapons. It was just an observation that Intellect, above all other attributes, requires backup in order to guarantee a possibility of survival during a BM horde. Hence I see it as a more of a mid-game build vs an early game one, due to the lack of a firearm within the tree, and again, I'm not saying it needs one. But if I were to label the trees myself, they would be, Perception, Strength, Fortitude, Agility, *Intellect. Notice the star symbol.

[MechanicalLens]

And I completely agree, Intellect does not need a buff, nor does it need a nerf. It's perfectly balanced the way it is. Nonetheless, due to the nature of things, I label it as a support build rather than a purely offensive one like the other four attributes. I'm confident that's a reasonable assessment.

[Roland]

2 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

It was just an observation that Intellect, above all other attributes, requires backup in order to guarantee a possibility of survival during a BM horde. Hence I see it as a more of a mid-game build vs an early game one, due to the lack of a firearm within the tree, and again, I'm not saying it needs one.

 

More often than not, observations and opinions are going to lead to discussion whether you intended it or not. For example, I still disagree with your observation. There is no lack of a firearm in the intelligence branch. As an intellect player you can use any firearm or a melee weapon in combination with the turret to devastating effect even if that weapon is unperked. It is essentially dual wielding which no other weapon has. I can't use an AK 47 and a shotgun at the same time. I can't use a pistol and an SMG at the same time. I can use a turret and anything else I want at the same time.

 

Saying that a turret alone cannot beat a BM horde is moot because nobody would ever do that. You might not be perked into the weapon you are holding and using along with the turret you are perked into but the combination is definitely lethal and can be effective even in the early game. In fact, I would say that it is best for the turret to be more of a midgame weapon precisely because it is too OP in the early game and not because of any lack.

 

Just now, MechanicalLens said:

And I completely agree, Intellect does not need a buff, nor does it need a nerf. It's perfectly balanced the way it is. Nonetheless, due to the nature of things, I label it as a support build rather than a purely offensive one like the other four attributes. I'm confident that's a reasonable assessment.

 

That is absolutely reasonable if that is the way you play it and see it. I think one way of looking at it is that it is a support build for other builds. Another way you could look at it is that the other builds are the support for the Intellect player. Its just a point of view. If you see the intellect build only being a viable independent build on its own if you are restricted to placing turrets and watching them kill and never using another weapon in combination, then I can see how you might look at it as a support build. But I think that is an overly strict definition because nobody would ever choose to play that way even if the turrets could mow down 50 demolishers without letting them get close. People would still want to actively kill alongside the turrets,

[MechanicalLens]

10 minutes ago, Roland said:

In fact, I would say that it is best for the turret to be more of a midgame weapon precisely because it is too OP in the early game and not because of any lack.

 

Exactly my point.  If a new player were to ask me, "Sage, I want to use an offensive attribute starting from the early game, which would should I pick?", I wouldn't dare mention Intellect since its effectiveness, for BM horde fighting, really comes into its own, especially with paired with another attribute, mid-game and beyond. So I would advise them to start off in another tree, perk into a firearm, and then consider turrets and traps under Intellect. Fair?

 

Edit: But then again, you don't need much firepower until mid-game anyway.

 

Edit 2: True. I'm not saying it's lesser, just different. It's the only attribute with turrets, so naturally you would see it paired up with another attribute for the benefit of the firearm that other attribute brings.

 

10 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

More often than not, observations and opinions are going to lead to discussion whether you intended it or not.

 

 

Now that you mention it, I can see this rolling around on an endless loop like discussions regarding LBD and food spoilage. Perhaps it would be for the best if you remove this discussion from the forums entirely? I wouldn't want to wake a hornet's nest.

Edited March 16, 2021 by MechanicalLens (see edit history)

[pregnable]

4 hours ago, Roland said:

I can throw a bone to all the intellect build fans who hate their weapons being less powerful than the other build counterparts:  Once you use the new pipe baton you may never use the wooden club again. (That's assuming, of course, @Gazz doesn't reconfigure the numbers on the pipe baton....)

 

I am VERY curious about this. 

 

If the stun and or shock damage were buffed, it could rival the sledge, or maybe be the best aoe crowd killer.

[MechanicalLens]

2 minutes ago, pregnable said:

 

I am VERY curious about this. 

 

If the stun and or shock damage were buffed, it could rival the sledge, or maybe be the best aoe crowd killer.

 

I don't believe that's the intention here. I think it's fine the way it is. But from my perspective, if you try to use the stun baton the same way as the other melee weapons, you're going to have a bad time. It requires a different playstyle, that's all. Similar to the turrets, like I said above, I see Intellect as a support build. Either it supports other attributes, or as Roland said, other attributes support Intellect. If you were to buff the weapons within Intellect it would throw all current balance out the window.

[doughphunghus]

Since there’s a lot of talk about the junk turret:

I think it would be interesting if the junk turret ammo could be crafted out of all sorts of “junk”, meaning: broken glass, rocks, wood, scrap plastics, cobblestone, etc. stuff you would just happen to have on hand. This would mean there would be much more variety of ammo choosable for the junk turret.  For argument, say add 5 more ammo types. 

 

the “power” of the shots would be driven by the weight/danger of the scrapped item. None of this ammo needs to be OP against scrap iron or regular ammo. This stuff would be “oh crap Im out of ammo” Ammo.
 

benefits:

- the junk turret could be used if you run out of ammo and are trapped. Just start tearing down everything around you and odds are something is going to be able to be made into ammo. Possibly really poor ammo, but something.

 

- broken glass might give bleeding, and at least give some use for broken glass in the game vs just a smelting and snacking resource.

 

- it’s a junk turret. It looks like it’s riven bu compressed air. You should be able to just put junk into it. Sure, not literally “every game item can become junk turret ammo” but having a larger variety of ammo would feel right for it’s name and function. And would give more reasons to carry one with you early game, but not good base defense when you’re protected anyway

 

- maybe all this low power emergency ammo would need some paper to craft (to make a ball out of the junk) thus also making a use for paper, which seems like it’s good for only a few things in game and piles up if you collect it.

- edit: and using cheap, but not powerful ammo, the turret can be used like a security/detector so things cannot sneak up on you while digging, etc. you still actually have to fight the zeds this way.

 

... and maybe treat the blunderbuss ammo the same .just throwing that out there.

 

(yeah I know there’s also recent talk of simplification of things...)

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by doughphunghus (see edit history)

[pregnable]

4 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

I don't believe that's the intention here. I think it's fine the way it is. But from my perspective, if you try to use the stun baton the same way as the other melee weapons, you're going to have a bad time. It requires a different playstyle, that's all. Similar to the turrets, like I said above, I see Intellect as a support build. Either it supports other attributes, or as Roland said, other attributes support Intellect. If you were to buff the weapons within Intellect it would throw all current balance out the window.

 

Nah, I am just looking for alternatives to sledge when playing insane/nightmare/64 zombies/horde every night. 

 

Hard to beat the sledge 1 shot power and aoe knockdown. 

 

IIRC, the stun baton shock damage is pretty terrible.  If that were buffed, it could suit my play style better.  Rather go 10 intel than str. 

 

Looking to use minimal bases, or no base at all, to fight the horde, but also keep it interesting by keeping the kill count and exp high. 

[BFT2020]

14 minutes ago, Khalagar said:

 

I mean, this just loops back to the issue of "Intellect doesn't have an endgame weapon" then where it's the only perk line that isn't balanced to stand on it's own as a fleshed out build.

I don't think this is an accurate statement.  I am currently at Day 95.  I spec'd into Intelligence and maxed it out.  I also have Strength almost maxed out and have spec'd into Perception.

 

I use various weapons during each BM (pistols, smgs, shotguns, assault rifles, M-60, sniper rifles) and able to hold off the BM horde (2nd to highest difficulty - I believe it is called survivability?).  When I am looting POIs, I just use shotguns, pistols, assault rifle, and turrets.  I have yet to die to the zombies.

 

Just because you max out intelligence doesn't mean you can't up other attributes to improve that class of weapons.  What you are saying is almost like you are only spec'ing one attribute and that is all.  When you get further along, you have the perk points to spend on other attributes and perks.

[Khalagar]

7 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

 

Just because you max out intelligence doesn't mean you can't up other attributes to improve that class of weapons.  What you are saying is almost like you are only spec'ing one attribute and that is all.  When you get further along, you have the perk points to spend on other attributes and perks.

 

That is the point of the conversation, yes. If you are making a build focused on one attribute (like most people do when not playing to day nine thousand) the other attributes can all stand on their own besides int.

 

There's no argument to be made on why each attribute shouldn't have some kind of self contained build that's viable on it's own even if it's not optimal. The actual min max optimal build is pretty much undeniably Auto Shottie + Club + Junk Sledges + unperked explosives. But there are many other less sweaty min max  builds that are completely viable by focusing only on one attribute, like auto shottie + club alone is already extremely solid, or M60 + fists etc works great. Dual junk turrets + baton and SMG + machete are probably the least viable, at least sniper and spear get explosives to off set how bad those two weapons are