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Roland

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1 hour ago, bachgaman said:

Individual examples of bad players do not help you in any way to prove that there is a balance in the game.

You asked me before of where you insulted others.  The fact that you don't see it, nobody can help you.

 

You do it all the time, whether it is a direct insult or a passive-aggressive insult.  It makes me wonder what is the motivation for them.

 

Why do people make snide comments like the one above;  implying that the way or difficulty levels others play makes them bad players, even as far as implying that what they say about how they play or the game itself doesn't matter?  Do they do this to make them feel superior to others?  Are they doing it because they want to demean others?

 

The fact that this sentence alone is not necessary when discussing with someone else about balance or improvements on game, but yet you still include it says a lot.

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11 hours ago, bachgaman said:
12 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

😲

now I'm not even sure anymore we're talking about the same game.

 

I will go home and rethink my life.

Perhaps the explanation is that I do 3-4 trader quests a day while you hide in the bushes with your homemade bow

No I also do mostly trader quests (whilst I never can do 4 a day, mostly 2 sometimes maybe 3 to the highest).

And I've never been so lucky to get awarded an AK at day 1 or 2, nor was there an affordable one in stock. Same for bigger stacks of ammo.

 

If you say that's generally the case...

Well I will just assume you must be like that super lucky woman from Deadpool 2.

When your life is a row of incredible flukes, then I can understand every of your arguments.

But that's not my reality.

 

The only thing I keep being lucky in every game I start is that I find the recipe for bacon&eggs very early, so I do not need to spend any points in Chef.

Once that failed me, and the game felt totally different because I suddenly had to care about starvation, which was not a problem at all before.

 

We will see how A20 performs in that way (as it was already announced that there are bigger changes in loot/progression)

TFP did already do a good job in diminishing the game being set upside down by a lucky/early find of high quality stuff in previous alphas.

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1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

Ask @Gazz, AFAIK the game is balanced (spreadsheets and all) around the default difficulty level.

In this case, game need a rework of everything. Default difficulty is incredibly easy even for newbie 

1 hour ago, BFT2020 said:

You asked me before of where you insulted others.  The fact that you don't see it, nobody can help you.

 

You do it all the time, whether it is a direct insult or a passive-aggressive insult.  It makes me wonder what is the motivation for them.

 

Why do people make snide comments like the one above;  implying that the way or difficulty levels others play makes them bad players, even as far as implying that what they say about how they play or the game itself doesn't matter?  Do they do this to make them feel superior to others?  Are they doing it because they want to demean others?

 

The fact that this sentence alone is not necessary when discussing with someone else about balance or improvements on game, but yet you still include it says a lot.

It says a lot that you did not answer when I asked, but sat and waited for the right opportunity to write this. It's funny. By the way, I don't see anything offensive in the fact that someone plays badly. If this offends you, then this is only your problem. Prove that it is not so in this case.

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

There you go! :)

I believe many will agree that the game loses interest at the moment when you cannot create anything new and the game conditions cease to create difficulties / dangers. So its endgame for many people

1 hour ago, meilodasreh said:

No I also do mostly trader quests (whilst I never can do 4 a day, mostly 2 sometimes maybe 3 to the highest).

And I've never been so lucky to get awarded an AK at day 1 or 2, nor was there an affordable one in stock. Same for bigger stacks of ammo.

 

If you say that's generally the case...

Well I will just assume you must be like that super lucky woman from Deadpool 2.

When your life is a row of incredible flukes, then I can understand every of your arguments.

But that's not my reality.

 

The only thing I keep being lucky in every game I start is that I find the recipe for bacon&eggs very early, so I do not need to spend any points in Chef.

Once that failed me, and the game felt totally different because I suddenly had to care about starvation, which was not a problem at all before.

 

We will see how A20 performs in that way (as it was already announced that there are bigger changes in loot/progression)

TFP did already do a good job in diminishing the game being set upside down by a lucky/early find of high quality stuff in previous alphas.

On my last visit to Vanila, I bought an AK at the beginning of the second day (or at the end of the first, I don’t remember), bought a crucible for day 4, more than a thousand concrete for day 5. I think if I try to repeat it, then everything will change a little except the essence. Let's say it will not be an AK, but a double-barreled shotgun, what's the difference? Even a blunderbuss is better than a bow and allows you not to hide from opponents too much

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9 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

I believe many will agree that the game loses interest at the moment when you cannot create anything new and the game conditions cease to create difficulties / dangers. So its endgame for many people

When people start using "WE" when they express their own opinions, it means their argument is not so strong as they think.

Just express your opinion for yourself. Don't try to make it look like you're backed by a huge crowd all agreeing with your ideas.

 

I could tell you, for example, that I believe also that many will agree that you can find a lot of reasons to continue playing even after other people think they've won. :) 

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28 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

 

I believe many will agree that the game loses interest at the moment when you cannot create anything new and the game conditions cease to create difficulties / dangers. So its endgame for many people

 

 

14 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

When people start using "WE" when they express their own opinions, it means their argument is not so strong as they think.

Just express your opinion for yourself. Don't try to make it look like you're backed by a huge crowd all agreeing with your ideas.

 

I could tell you, for example, that I believe also that many will agree that you can find a lot of reasons to continue playing even after other people think they've won. :) 

Welll bachgaman is right in this sitation now Jost. I will give you fresh example- most of community of cod zombies hate der anfang- lack of content , small number of zombie types, small number of quests, no PAP camo etc So "many" suits here perfectly without doubts .

But what about 7dtd? it's depends how many is for you many XD. For example- i saw a lot of topics about lack of endgame, small number of zombies etc. So some people thing 7dtd have similiar problem like bachgaman. But how many people have this problem? idk. But let say 10%. If it is a lot? it depends. So many can be "right" too. This just subcjective

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44 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

When people start using "WE" when they express their own opinions, it means their argument is not so strong as they think.

Just express your opinion for yourself. Don't try to make it look like you're backed by a huge crowd all agreeing with your ideas.

 

I could tell you, for example, that I believe also that many will agree that you can find a lot of reasons to continue playing even after other people think they've won. :) 

Expected, stereotyped answer, I did not expect anything else, lol

I only explained why I think that we are discussing an important issue, that not only about me, and not why I am right. It is obvious

Edited by bachgaman (see edit history)
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57 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

On my last visit to Vanila, I bought an AK at the beginning of the second day (or at the end of the first, I don’t remember), bought a crucible for day 4

Ok for me this is all starting to become pointless...we ARE playing different games here. Thx anyways for your thoughts.

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18 hours ago, Khalagar said:

Pretty much shuts any debate about whether the bow was under powered or not in A19 lol. I'd love for it to be viable again, but imo, they are fairly pointless as is. 

 

Bows in the game have never been pointless, but they are probably the only situational range weapon (not including turrets) when you look at them:

 

Ammo Type Weapon Base Damage rpm DPS
7.76 AP T3 MG 50 440 367
44 HP T3 pistol 70 130 152
9mm AP T3 SMG 8 480 64
7.76 AP T3 Sniper 50 140 117
Shot_slug T3 shotgun 96 70 112
Steel bolt T3 cross 45 75 56
Steel arrow T3 bow 31 75

39

 

Ammo Type Weapon Sneak - NHS Sneak HS Dam / shot (silenced)
7.76 AP T3 MG 50 150 128
44 HP T3 pistol 70 210 179
9mm AP T3 SMG 8 24 20
7.76 AP T3 Sniper 50 150 128
Shot_slug T3 shotgun 96 288 245
Steel bolt T3 cross 90 270 230
Steel arrow T3 bow 62 186 158

 

I can't get the table option to look right, sorry.  The first table is straight DPS while the second table is stealth attacks (NHS is No Hidden Strike, HS is hidden strike).  Silenced is based on the HS column.

 

This is damaged based on specific ammo types, a T3 Q6 "nominal" weapon (zero perks).  With the exception of the M60, the T6 weapons are in the 110-150 DPS range; but the bows are in the 39-56 DPS range.  They come into their own when you take into consideration sneak / hidden strike bonuses.  All weapons (except sledgehammers) benefit from hidden strike, while bows / knives have additional benefits.  That narrows the gap significantly on the DPS between the bows and other ranged weapons.

 

Bows do even better on closing the gap when you consider a single shot (based on a one shot one kill approach) and silenced weapons.  Bows are the best when comparing silenced (I don't consider Shotguns as weapons that can use silencers and that is how I play the game, but it is up to each person how they want to - I did include shotguns though as a comparison to show that they are in-between bows and crossbows).

 

If you got a huge horde of zombies pressing down on you and nothing between you and them, a bow is not your best defense.  If you are looking to clear out a POI quickly, then a bow is not your best option.  However, if you play where ammo is limited and best saved for Bloodmoon horde nights, then the bows are great based on what you need to craft ammo for them and the ability to limit using firearm ammo.

 

Is this way of playing for everyone?  No.  Should it be?  No.

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1 hour ago, bachgaman said:

Expected, stereotyped answer, I did not expect anything else, lol

I only explained why I think that we are discussing an important issue, that not only about me, and not why I am right. It is obvious

And I'm telling you that since this is about personal perception, the fact you're trying to showcase your own point of view as the "truth", by also gauging other players' supposed preferences, that is simply preposterous. As I said, speak for yourself and try not to deflect by saying my reply is "stereotypical".

 

To sum it up: you think that competitive gaming is the best way to balance 7D2D, instead I think it should also take into account the "fun factor" and role playing.

We simply disagree and let's leave it at that. Thanks.

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6 hours ago, bachgaman said:

To be honest, I had more important tasks than chasing chickens for arrows in the early days. Then I found a weapon that was very competitive with bows.

 

But it is obvious that other tasks are more important than collecting feathers when you don't go for agility and bows. It was you who said feathers are hard to find and that was a reason for you not to use a bow. But if you went for bows it would have been an important task.

 

I'm not sure if you noticed but that "more important tasks" sounds really snobbish (at least to me).  

 

6 hours ago, bachgaman said:

Let's put it this way, while your husband sits in the bushes with his wooden bow and rags by the end of the first week, I ride a truck full of ammunition and weapons and live in concrete base. I'm talking about the results of this or that gameplay, about the speed of the game when i compare the variants of character development. This has a direct relationship with the usefulness of the bow and stealth. Bows and stealth do not allow you to complete the game in 7 days, but barter and adventurer do.

 

Lets, put it another way, another comment that is impolite without necessity.

 

I don't think that speed of progression to "endgame" is anywhere in the job descriptions of a survivor in a zombie game. The survival part would make not dying while playing as the ultimate goal and that can happen at any speed. Since enemies get stronger in sync with your level progress you may as well need a sturdy concrete base on day 7 while someone playing it more slowly will be as save with just a simple cobblestone base.

 

No, thats not exactly right, on day 7 in vanilla nobody needs a concrete horde base, not even the player on insane (this is a guess, but there are just too few zombies in the first horde night to endanger even a well-made cobblestone base by an experienced player).  

 

The sandbox part doesn't care about speed to endgame as well.

 

In short, time to reach some "win" state is not a useful metric for everyone. Someone can choose this as a goal but it isn't the only one.

 

I agree that in A19 the trader gives out too much ammo and too good weapons so as to make the pray-and-spray method too easy, but all of that knowledge is already moot with A20 being around the corner. Showing an ak by day 2 in A19 is beating a dead horse.

 

2 hours ago, bachgaman said:

In this case, game need a rework of everything. Default difficulty is incredibly easy even for newbie

 

How do you know that default is incredibly easy for newbies? DId you really observe say a hundred newbies without giving them any hints and they soared through the game?

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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13 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

And I'm telling you that since this is about personal perception, the fact you're trying to showcase your own point of view as the "truth", by also gauging other players' supposed preferences, that is simply preposterous. As I said, speak for yourself and try not to deflect by saying my reply is "stereotypical".

 

To sum it up: you think that competitive gaming is the best way to balance 7D2D, instead I think it should also take into account the "fun factor" and role playing.

We simply disagree and let's leave it at that. Thanks.

 

8 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

But it is obvious that other tasks are more important than collecting feathers when you don't go for agility and bows. It was you who said feathers are hard to find and that was a reason for you not to use a bow.

 

I'm not sure if you noticed but that "more important tasks" sounds really snobbish (at least to me).  

 

 

Lets, put it another way, another comment that is impolite without necessity.

 

I don't think that speed of progression to "endgame" is anywhere in the job descriptions of a survivor in a zombie game. The survival part would make not dying while playing as the ultimate goal and that can happen at any speed. Since enemies get stronger in sync with your level progress you may as well need a sturdy concrete base on day 7 while someone playing it more slowly will be as save with just a simple cobblestone base.

 

No, thats not exactly right, on day 7 in vanilla nobody needs a concrete horde base, not even the player on insane (this is a guess, but there are just too few zombies in the first horde night to endanger even a well-made cobblestone base by an experienced player).  

 

The sandbox part doesn't care about speed to endgame as well.

 

In short, time to reach some "win" state is not a useful metric for everyone. Someone can choose this as a goal but it isn't the only one.

 

I agree that in A19 the trader gives out too much ammo and too good weapons so as to make the pray-and-spray method too easy, but all of that knowledge is already moot with A20 being around the corner. Showing an ak by day 2 in A19 is beating a dead horse.

 

 

 


My issue, that i have been addressing to a small extent with mods, is that there is no end game. minecraft sorta has an end game with the ender dragon. But there are a lot of things to do in minecraft. 7 days is a weird game for me because i get very hyped after a release, play non stop for a week, then after i hit a point i quit. Once you hit the high end tiers of equipment why continue? In linear games you defeat the boss, put the game away, then move on. With 7 days it gets tedious after a bit.  7 days has some amazing things that separate it from other games. The pois are astonishing. It feels like i am in real world buildings. I know this has been improved. The jumpscares and danger in the pois are good as well, and horde night is fun. 

 

I have found some amazing solutions in mods, and i think they give insight to how the end game development should go. The game falls apart with the end game and with the quests. with the quest i get annoyed when i go into the same poi multiple times. When a poi is raided by the player those quests should be removed from the pool, if not permanently then at least with a cooldown. Or have poi specific quest chains. Once they are cleared then you go back and set something up, or clear out bandits/ ferials, or move in. 

 

Age of oblivion found a crazy solution that i think should be made in the real game: citizen collection quests. Traders giving too much ammo? nerf that. People hating the nerf? well have  a special quest chain for trader joel to collect brass, lead, and gunpowder so that everyone gets ammo.  The reward is some xp, but all ammo rewards will be doubled for quests. Give the traders a merchant level, that gets improved if you do quests for them. 

 

Dynamic random quests would help too, like have courier npcs running around and getting into trouble, maybe give them smoke bombs that indicate they are in danger and you can run up and give them first aid/rob them. Stuff like that, stuff that makes the world more active. 

 

House flipper is a popular youtube content. The game is a crafting game, if npcs come into the game, then why not have a crafting element? why not flip and fortify houses? Have a community style gameplay that state of decay tries to do but messess up because they suck. 

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1 hour ago, bachgaman said:
2 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

Ok for me this is all starting to become pointless...we ARE playing different games here. Thx anyways for your thoughts.

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I somehow knew you would feel called upon proving you get all that stuff so early by posting some pictures,

although I never said I didn't believe you. 

Well those pictures don't "prove" anything cause there's no way to say how your game options are tweaked,

or even whether you gave yourself all that stuff via console command.

 

But that's not the point, and I'm not saying that.

 

I truly believe that's your actual real and straight game,

as you can believe me when I tell you that I never have all that stuff that early ingame (and no thx I'm not lazily hiding in the bushes all the time...)

(or should I post some pictures of a trader's inventory without any full-auto guns or impact drivers to prove it? 😀)

 

So it's what I said. Different games. Pointless discussion. I'm out. 

Edited by meilodasreh (see edit history)
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6 minutes ago, SenpaiThatIngnoresYou said:

 


My issue, that i have been addressing to a small extent with mods, is that there is no end game. minecraft sorta has an end game with the ender dragon. But there are a lot of things to do in minecraft. 7 days is a weird game for me because i get very hyped after a release, play non stop for a week, then after i hit a point i quit. Once you hit the high end tiers of equipment why continue? In linear games you defeat the boss, put the game away, then move on. With 7 days it gets tedious after a bit.  7 days has some amazing things that separate it from other games. The pois are astonishing. It feels like i am in real world buildings. I know this has been improved. The jumpscares and danger in the pois are good as well, and horde night is fun. 

 

Is that endgame goal "ender dragon" really so much better? You play for a week, kill the ender dragon and then you quit because the game says you are finished. In both cases you had fun for a week.

 

Now having a goal the game sets up for you but which you are able to ignore or continue after reaching it is definitely a bit better because it gives you one more option. No question about it. But I think the secret sauce in 7d2d, minecraft, factorio and other games that last for hundreds of hours is not that single goal. 

 

6 minutes ago, SenpaiThatIngnoresYou said:

 

I have found some amazing solutions in mods, and i think they give insight to how the end game development should go. The game falls apart with the end game and with the quests. with the quest i get annoyed when i go into the same poi multiple times. When a poi is raided by the player those quests should be removed from the pool, if not permanently then at least with a cooldown. Or have poi specific quest chains. Once they are cleared then you go back and set something up, or clear out bandits/ ferials, or move in. 

 

AFAIK solving the multiple-POI-problem is part of the RWG overhaul done for A20. It will certainly improve the game, though anyone having played thousands of hours will know all POIs. There is no way I will ever see waterworks with new eyes 😉

 

This dilemma can only be solved somewhat by the modding community. Only the community has the man power to get a reasonable influx of new POIs into the game that will make a difference. All hail compopack! 😉

 

6 minutes ago, SenpaiThatIngnoresYou said:

 

Age of oblivion found a crazy solution that i think should be made in the real game: citizen collection quests. Traders giving too much ammo? nerf that. People hating the nerf? well have  a special quest chain for trader joel to collect brass, lead, and gunpowder so that everyone gets ammo.  The reward is some xp, but all ammo rewards will be doubled for quests. Give the traders a merchant level, that gets improved if you do quests for them. 

 

Dynamic random quests would help too, like have courier npcs running around and getting into trouble, maybe give them smoke bombs that indicate they are in danger and you can run up and give them first aid/rob them. Stuff like that, stuff that makes the world more active. 

 

House flipper is a popular youtube content. The game is a crafting game, if npcs come into the game, then why not have a crafting element? why not flip and fortify houses? Have a community style gameplay that state of decay tries to do but messess up because they suck. 

 

merchant level aka reputation and NPCs are both features that seem to be on TFP's To-Do list, just how much NPCs will factor into the game, no idea.

 

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6 minutes ago, SenpaiThatIngnoresYou said:

My issue, that i have been addressing to a small extent with mods, is that there is no end game. minecraft sorta has an end game with the ender dragon. But there are a lot of things to do in minecraft. 7 days is a weird game for me because i get very hyped after a release, play non stop for a week, then after i hit a point i quit. Once you hit the high end tiers of equipment why continue? In linear games you defeat the boss, put the game away, then move on. 

 

In 7D2D's Alpha 20 state, there is no defined end game.  We might see an end game with the Duke down the road, once bandits are introduced and the story fleshed out.

 

However, there is nothing preventing us the players on setting our own endgame scenario

 

This is an example of several ways I went about playing Alpha 19

  • Dead is dead
  • Game ends when I lose during a horde night
  • Playing as a strength character
  • Playing as an agility character
  • Playing as an intel character
  • Playing as a character not going over 5 in any ability tree
  • Perking into survival skills and not into combat skills
  • Building a base from the ground up
  • Converting a POI into a horde base
  • Having a single base as both my main and horde night
  • Moving to a new location after each blood moon horde
  • Going all stealth
  • Using only the ammo I can find looting
  • Only selling items to traders I crafted (and only using items I crafted myself)
  • How long can I go with only using traps and arrows to defend my horde base
  • Shorter days
  • No mining
  • Desert only
  • Wasteland only
  • Horde night every 4 nights

 

The list goes on and on.  But it depends on the person really.  If your goal is to get the shiny stuff, then once you get the shiny stuff, the interest level drops off considerably.  If however you like to come up with challenges for you to do, then the list is endless.  There are more challenges I want to do that I haven't yet (horde every night, pistol and knives only) that will keep me playing this game further down the road regardless if no new additional content comes out after today (which is not the case).

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

And I'm telling you that since this is about personal perception, the fact you're trying to showcase your own point of view as the "truth", by also gauging other players' supposed preferences, that is simply preposterous. As I said, speak for yourself and try not to deflect by saying my reply is "stereotypical".

Your reaction to my phrase that, IN MY OPINION, I am far from being alone in my perception of endgame (which is not unreasonable) was really very funny and stereotyped. You triggered and, according to a pre-prepared template, began to write about the fact that I use "WE" to prove something there 😂

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

To sum it up: you think that competitive gaming is the best way to balance 7D2D, instead I think it should also take into account the "fun factor" and role playing.

It is very interesting from what you have drawn such conclusions. And how someone's "fun" can be related to balance. In addition, I am sure that bow lovers would have a lot more fun in a balanced game. I myself would not mind playing with the bow, if that made sense.

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

But it is obvious that other tasks are more important than collecting feathers when you don't go for agility and bows. It was you who said feathers are hard to find and that was a reason for you not to use a bow.

Improve perks of a certain type of weapon is self-limitation, I very rarely do this

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

I'm not sure if you noticed but that "more important tasks" sounds really snobbish (at least to me).  

?

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

Lets, put it another way, another comment that is impolite without necessity.

What is impolite?

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

ince enemies get stronger in sync with your level progress you may as well need a sturdy concrete base on day 7

They don't get stronger. If you are talking about blood moons, then they also scale very badly. I played until day 14 and both blood moons were almost completely boring and easy.

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

How do you know that default is incredibly easy for newbies? DId you really observe say a hundred newbies without giving them any hints and they soared through the game?

Because I was a newbie not too long ago. The ones I play with in the group too. Don't you think it's ridiculous to demand research and statistics on every opinion expressed?

16 minutes ago, meilodasreh said:

I somehow knew you would feel called upon proving you get all that stuff so early by posting some pictures,

although I never said I didn't believe you. 

Well those pictures don't "prove" anything cause there's no way to say how your game options are tweaked,

or even whether you gave yourself all that stuff via console command.

 

But that's not the point, and I'm not saying that.

 

I truly believe that's your actual real and straight game,

as you can believe me when I tell you that I never have all that stuff that early ingame (and no thx I'm not lazily hiding in the bushes all the time...)

(or should I post some pictures of a trader's inventory without any full-auto guns or impact drivers to prove it? 😀)

 

So it's what I said. Different games. Pointless discussion. I'm out. 

It seemed to me that multiple statements about the different games we play are a sign of distrust.

Edited by bachgaman (see edit history)
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19 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

...

Improve perks of a certain type of weapon is self-restraint, I very rarely do this

 

If you want to play stealth there is really no alternative to perking into stealth and using a bow. Only after finding a silencer you get more options.  What does that have to do with what you usually do?

 

19 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

?

What is impolite?

 

For example using derogatory terms and similes for any activity someone else does is impolite and bad discussion culture.  

 

19 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

They don't get stronger. If you are talking about blood moons, then they also scale very badly. I played until day 14 and both blood moons were almost completely boring and easy.

Because I was a newbie not too long ago. The ones I play with in the group too. Don't you think it's ridiculous to demand research and statistics on every opinion expressed?

 

Did I demand it for every opinion? No, I demanded it for exactly one opinion stating a fact about ALL newbies.

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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4 minutes ago, meganoth said:

If you want to play stealth there is really no alternative to perking into stealth and using a bow. Only after finding a silencer you get more options.  What does that have to do with what you usually do?

I don't want to play stealth for the sake of playing stealth. I want to use stealth as a tool for further development and survival at a distance

5 minutes ago, meganoth said:

For example using derogatory terms and similes for any activity someone else does is impolite and bad discussion culture.  

What "derogatory terms and similes" have I used? I dont understand

6 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Did I demand it for every opinion? No, I demanded it for exactly one statemant made about ALL newbies.

I'm afraid to say for sure, because you can request new statistics, but it seems to me that this is not the first time you do this. And not only you.

 

I didn't say "ALL", I didn't even use the plural in "newbie". But from my experience it is

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6 hours ago, bachgaman said:

I understand what you are talking about, you are partly right, but there are different degrees of deepening in minmax. You are talking about the most extreme form of the fulfillment of this desire

 

Yes, I was talking about the most extreme on the spectrum. I also stated myself that there are degrees. By stating the most extreme, people can now read what you post and evaluate how you compare to the extreme. Going by your posts (I don't know you after all) I would say you are closer to the extreme end and I'm betting most who have read your viewpoint would agree. I mean not only can you not stand to play inefficiently you can't even stand to watch inefficient play. It is one of your admitted main objections to streamers and it makes so much sense and fits why you could never be part of that culture. 

 

7 hours ago, bachgaman said:

Thus, you admit that bow and stealth are notoriously worse perks than barter and adventurer. Thanks. This was the topic of discussion.

 

Yeah, you win. Since efficiency is the only context that matters to you-- in those terms-- I fully admit that bow and stealth are worse perks than barter and adventurer. I also admit that by concentrating on bow and and stealth I would never be able to have a jeep, concrete base, best tools and weapons, and otherwise win the game under your conditions by day 7 on Warrior or higher difficulty.

 

Now the big question that has got to worry you is whether the developers of the game believe that efficiency is the only context for balance that matters. 

 

7 hours ago, bachgaman said:

And here you amusingly avoid admitting that they are simply unbalanced.

 

And now I admit fully that they are simply unbalanced by your criteria. I completely believe you when you say you can achieve your win conditions by Day 7 with one particular combination of perks and play strategy but that you cannot replicate that using other combinations of perks and play strategies. My argument has ceased to be whether you are wrong or right about the balance of the game. You are 100% right. The perks are not all balanced against efficiency.

 

My own enjoyment of the game is completely unconditional upon whether one strategy is more or less efficient than another, however. In fact, my enjoyment of bow and stealth is due to the fact that it is less efficient because that offers a new experience and unlike you I don't have to work hard at all to ignore the fact that the way I am choosing to play is going to be slower and wasteful. So I really have no need or desire to avoid admitting that the imbalance as you have described it exists.

 

7 hours ago, bachgaman said:

Individual examples of bad players do not help you in any way to prove that there is a balance in the game. I'm not obsessed with efficiency, I just like making good choices. And I enjoy playing well.

 

Do you realize that your very definition of what makes someone a bad player vs a good player just adds more evidence about how extreme you are in your views about efficiency? Not only are you obsessed but it has become the very definition of good and bad to you. "Good choices" are only those choices that are the most efficient. "Playing well" means purely that you are progressing as quickly as you can maximizing efficiency and minimizing waste. 

 

A streamer who pauses to talk to their chat is a bad player and makes poor choices because chatting with your audience doesn't help them advance their progression in any way.

A player who decides to focus on bow and stealth is a bad player because on day 7 they will be in rags crouching behind a bush while someone else who started at the same time and is a good player will have a truck and a machine gun.

A player is a good player if they mod out the trader so none exist in their game but a bad player if they leave the trader in but just choose to ignore or limit how they use the trader because then they are making inefficient choices and ignoring the best possible choices to advance as quickly as possible that are available to them.

 

I very much doubt that the developers are going to rebalance the game (the entire game needs to be rebalanced I believe you said) to suit you. They are not nearly so focused on the thing you hold most dear.

 

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18 hours ago, bachgaman said:

in a normal game you get an AK-47 and several hundred ammo on day 2.

That's not a "normal" game, that's a speedrun game. Normal games don't include crucible and 4x4 by D7. You just prefer to speedrun it. Which is fine but that is also why the game gets boring to you, you do it the same way every time. Playing with "worse" methods increases the fun factor because it is new and challenging.

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2 hours ago, meganoth said:

I don't think that speed of progression to "endgame" is anywhere in the job descriptions of a survivor in a zombie game.

 

Speed is in Bach's nature. He is not going to accept any condition that does not include speed of progression.

 

Fast progression = good player making correct strategic choices

Slow progression = bad player making poor strategic choices

 

For him, that is it. He cannot conceive of any other definition of good player vs bad player and being a good player is very important to him. No argument that tries to recontextualize the game in terms of something other than speed and efficiency of progression is simply not able to be processed or if it is it is dismissed immediately with disdain because then you are simply talking about how to play the game poorly again.

 

10 minutes ago, JCrook1028 said:

That's not a "normal" game, that's a speedrun game. Normal games don't include crucible and 4x4 by D7. You just prefer to speedrun it. Which is fine but that is also why the game gets boring to you, you do it the same way every time. Playing with "worse" methods increases the fun factor because it is new and challenging.

 

Speedrunners will be the folks we'll see a week after A20 drops asking, "Was that it?!"

 

They devour new content in days and then demand more. Meanwhile all the rest of us bad players will spend the next several months enjoying the new content and exploring all the changes. My goodness, it pays to be bad.

 

(Yes Bach, I know. I've amusingly and unwittingly admitted that I'm a bad player...)

 

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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57 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

It seemed to me that multiple statements about the different games we play are a sign of distrust

No why? It is just a sign of...well...a discussion. Meaning: two people having different opinions which might be both valid, and one person wants to know why the other person is thinking different about the same.

If I thought you were just lying about, I would have quit it much earlier (or even didn't ask in the first place what you mean considering weapon balancing)

 

And as a conclusion I (we?) found out that our game settings must be so completely different, that it makes a total different game (experience).

(while the "you being insanely more lucky than me all the time" theory seems not valid) 😄.

 

So we're not thinking different about the same, but about something different...making further discussion pointless of course.

 

So no distrust there, I actually even enjoyed it a little.

We both seem to come across as being somewhat angry or even poisonous sometimes for others.

I like to say it's just because of my angry-looking avatar, but maybe I have to admit that I like to be a bit sarcastic sometimes.

But not in this case. Thx again.

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8 hours ago, bachgaman said:

you admit that bow and stealth are notoriously worse perks than barter and adventurer.

So in your eyes the trader is severely unbalanced yet you still go full hog into the perks to make it even more OP? Lmao, that's just stupid.

6 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

AFAIK the game is balanced (spreadsheets and all) around the default difficulty level.

Actually no, it's balanced around nomad and default is adventurer.

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