A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[ShellHead]

5 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

It’s very satisfying to play a build that is not as combat capable of the others.  Stun baton has its strengths and weaknesses, but I wouldn’t trade them for a second just so they are buffed to be similar to the knives or the clubs.  I want real weaknesses, not flavor weaknesses if stun batons are buffed to be like the other melee weapons.

 

So it is not true that everbody this and nobody this like you stated in your post.

1: I don’t disagree but there is a fine line between less combat capable and unbalanced, my point is i want to make sure that INT is the former and not the latter.

2: i did not make those claims, i know what i wrote was dense but i explicitly avoided trying to make those kinds of claims because i didn’t want to have any potential fallacies supporting my argument.

[saltychipmunk]

personally I would like a separation between combat and utility perks .  having certain weapons tied to certain stat types needlessly restricts build diversity.

 

every mining build is rocking a shot gun and a hammer

every int build is rocking a robot and a baton etc..

 

that can get old fast.

 

At the very least it would be nice if combat perks were less focused on weapon and more like effects.

 

For example some one who went into strength could  have a perk that makes all weapons hit harder or stun for longer.

Or someone with Int could have perks  that make weapon mods go farther on their weapons  so a spike upgrade is some how spikier for a smarty

 

And then you have weapon perks in separate trees with their own points. 

 

That would be cewl.

[ShellHead]

2 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

@ShellHead

That is why playing a pure INT build is so exciting.  We can't handle all the fights with ease, we have to take advantage of the tools and situation we are in.  And when we survive that fight, we are elated that we were able to win.  And if we fail, we re-examined what we did and work on improving ourselves so the next time we are in that situation, we do a better job.

 

If that is your belief, you do not understand the full capability of perked turrets for the INT tree.  The ability to setup kill boxes on the fly, the ability to use a turret to slow down a chasing feral / irradiated zombie when the situation becomes chaotic.  To deal with that pack of zombie dogs or vultures.  The list goes on.  

 

Yes, all the time.  A sledge turret always seems to be part of my horde base design, no matter what Attribute tree I am spec'ing into.  Once I obtain an auto turret, I use it.  The only difference is I don't take 2-4 turrets if I haven't spec'd into the INT tree.

 

 

Does everything have to be the most efficient choice?  Whatever happen to just using things because they are fun and challenging?  If the goal was only to use the most efficient melee weapon, then I would always go with the clubs (perks and books).

 

 

A lot of non-strength players don't use the club or sledgehammer.  The main purpose of the knife for non-agility players is to harvest animals.  As an agility build, I only use the knives (why waste an inventory slot on non-perked melee weapons when the knives are my main melee weapon).  The argument that non-INT players would not use the stun baton also applies to the other melee weapons.

1: It was clear i was talking about STR in context of FORT with that statement, i was not talking about INT.

2: Singular does not mean solely, i was saying that the turrets are the best and only weapon for watching your back, they are useful in more situations than just that.

3: which is why i said “like an INT player seeks out an AR or shotgun”, turrets are generally useful because they’re essentially free damage for any build, but an INT player has to rush other weapons and nabbing an AR/shotgun is a real prize.

4: Grind =/= Challenge, having to blow through more ammo over more time for marginally more health when all is said and done is not what i would consider fun and i feel that it undersells how dynamic the INT playstyle can be. Also the club is dearly in need of rebalancing, it’s too good at too many things to be fair to other melee weapons.

5: I can only speak for myself, but it would seem to me that there would be lots of fun combinations of melee and ranged weapons across attributes. Maybe that’s better suited for hybrid builds than perked/unperked combos though.

Edited June 11, 2021 by ShellHead (see edit history)

[ShellHead]

Sorry for multi posting but i wanted to respond to multiple posts.

7 hours ago, meganoth said:

You lost me there, what is your point exactly? And how are you disagreeing with me here? When you say stat, do you mean attribute or perk or weapon damage?

 

If it is that strength is less combat heavy than Fortitude, well, might be, but the difference is much less than between those two and all other attributes. A STR player on horde night will usually have it as easy as a FOR player because he may be much weaker on mid-range damage but he has a massive resource advantage. More blocks means more blocks between you and any zombies.

Sorry I should’ve clarified, when i’ve previously said stat I’m referring to grand stats but i’ll use attributes from here on.

my point was that FORT’s combat monster status was based in balance issues with its weapons of choice as opposed to the actual design intention for the attribute, which given its perks are solely focused on survival would say to me that FORT’s design was intended to be somewhat like a more well-rounded version of INT but swapping out accelerated progression for high resilience against most ways of dying.

7 hours ago, meganoth said:

Why should the INT player not invest in the turret perk when we assume the strength player invests in the shotgun perk in a comparison? Where is the hefty investment, there is only one turret perk?

I was thinking of the point investment for the baton as well, but thinking about that more it’s not actually necessary so i’ll drop that point.

The INT player should absolutely max out the turret perk but it seems like the turret starts out with a slow enough rate of fire that the INT player would need to push for the higher ranks faster to get to a comfortable place with the turret. The junk sledge hits about as fast as a club with better range and knockback to make up for the low damage but the club is much more mobile under most circumstances so a higher rate of fire would make up for the lack of mobility, which is added via the perk. The reason i say shift some of the RoF into the weapon baseline is to help lower ranked INT players and non-INT players, but i’d be fine with just shifting it into the earlier ranks as an alternative.
 

7 hours ago, meganoth said:

low skill floor? Whats is that?

A Skill Floor is a design term that refers to the ease or difficulty of use of something, a low floor is easy for anyone to use effectively (e.g. a shotgun: high damage, fires in a wide area, gets more powerful as enemies get closer.) a high floor is harder to use effectively, not to say it’s less useful, oftentimes something with a high floor is extremely powerful but requires more knowledge to put to use. The other part is a Skill Ceiling which is the point at which skill caps out for something, high ceilings have a lot of room for growth and mastery whereas low ceilings are simple to master but don’t get a ton better with that mastery.

7 hours ago, meganoth said:

As non-INT player I sometimes use turrets and in horde nights very often use the robotic sledge. But why does that matter, I thought we were discussing what value the INT tree is for INT players?

 

There were even complaints by at least one forum user that the turrets were so mighty and easy to use by non-INT players and that would diminish the value of the turrets for the INT player. I don't subscribe to that view, but it shows the range of opinions here.

From what i recall, the conversation started with talking about INT’s weapons and their value to the INT tree, so the perks were a part of that but it was more about the actual gear. 

There are no doubt a wide range of opinions and expectations when discussing these topics, we each have our own experiences and preferences which is why i try to keep to the numbers because i’m focused on the balance of weapons and perks regardless of whether or not I personally favor that playstyle (STR+FORT Doomguy is my go to and i think it could use some nerfs honestly).
 

7 hours ago, meganoth said:

While I think guns are perfectly usable by all attributes (to make the most of the ammo you find for example) I don't see much value in using the melee weapon of an attribute you are not investing in.

I suppose that’s fair, though i think that the unique elements of the stun baton could be fun with other builds but maybe those should just spec into INT.

7 hours ago, meganoth said:

I would have no problems with that point. INT being special is one of the best things in the game. Variety is good, and variety can be balanced. It is just more difficult to balance (but luckily WE players don't need to balance it).

 

Agi (because of stealth) and INT (because of the turret as a mechanical companion) are very important for the replayability of the game. Because generally STR, FOR and even PER play very similar if you look at the combat part alone.

I like the idea of INT being able to effectively use its tools while also using whatever other weapons it picks up (kind of works with the quick witted concept) but INT’s weapons not being desirable to other perks outside of just grabbing a sledge for horde night seems like a waste of unique weapons. Other perks mixing in INT weapons would add more variety via indirect damage (turrets) and consistent disabling (stun baton) and would help keep weapon choice from just going for “more damage, faster RoF, bigger area of effect”.

I have no desire to make INT less unique or to change its focus, i want its unique approach to combat to be a serious contender for builds across the spectrum, i really think a disable oriented fighting style is fun especially in the context of 7d2d’s tower/base defense gameplay.

[Star69]

Lots of interesting takes on INT. As someone who plays almost exclusively INT, the stun baton is what I use 95% of the time. Usually I put 3 points in it.  Early game I carry a 9mm, investing no points but will seek out the books. I only use the 9mm for those “Oh sh*t” moments otherwise just the baton. Mid to end game, if lucky enough to find auto shotty book, I’ll throw some points in strength to make a decent one. I pretty much only use turrets for horde night, eventually maxing turret skill to place 2 of them for hordes. It’s just my opinion, lots of other ways to play INT. I don’t feel weak as compared to my teammates playing other classes and I seem to kill as many zombies day to day and on horde night as them.  I like things as they are now and it’ll be better, I hope, with the introduction of the pipe baton.

[SittingDuck]

gimme a new Zombie survivalgame for free! Ähm I mean cant wait for A20 to hit me ^^

[MechanicalLens]

1 hour ago, Aldranon said:

The layout of the Towns/Cities(?) is very good news!  Making things seem more logical is a huge step forward!

Thanks guys for continuing the great endeavor that is 7D2D!! 

 

(Looking forward to New York City 7D2D Part 2, or any random big city for that matter!  It looks like you guys are building the foundations for it.

Or am I wrong?)

 

Where did they mention anything about city/town layouts? I would like to see for myself.

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

Where did they mention anything about city/town layouts? I would like to see for myself.

Well i hope so cities will like in l4d1 ( small but some bulding connected with walls small shops and small yards etc)

[KindaCringe]

people really out here trying to argue that a flaming zombie is unrealistic while playing a game where a zombie on all 4's can jump like 4 meters high

[Matt115]

23 minutes ago, KindaCringe said:

people really out here trying to argue that a flaming zombie is unrealistic while playing a game where a zombie on all 4's can jump like 4 meters high

Quick example : hunter from l4d2 - mutated muscles let him jump higher .  Splitter have scares from acid so she isn't 100% immune. But flaming zombie can't work  long ( maybe for 15 sec?) . So spider zombie from 7dtd and hunter from l4d2 works in this same way . 

[unholyjoe]

38 minutes ago, KindaCringe said:

people really out here trying to argue that a flaming zombie is unrealistic while playing a game where a zombie on all 4's can jump like 4 meters high

it's called "selective arguing"

 

does'nt have to be of importance or even mean anything, just has to be a disagreement to arguing or complain...

 

i think it's a new stress relief.

 

and in return when they want to argue with me... i just don't answer... my kids are all grown and doing fine arguing amongst themselves without me now. so i don't need anymore.... arguments that is..

 

also don't forget... we can carry a stack of concrete blocks but argue when one more glass jar puts them into "over encumbrance"

 

Edited June 12, 2021 by unholyjoe (see edit history)

[hikingnut]

How'd you like to see this guy stumbling around the burnt biome. Good thing zeds can't talk.

[Jost Amman]

3 hours ago, MechanicalLens said:

Where did they mention anything about city/town layouts? I would like to see for myself.

Really?? I thought you'd seen all the info about the new city layouts considering you're here 99% of the time! 

[Matt115]

2 hours ago, unholyjoe said:

it's called "selective arguing"

 

does'nt have to be of importance or even mean anything, just has to be a disagreement to arguing or complain...

 

i think it's a new stress relief.

 

and in return when they want to argue with me... i just don't answer... my kids are all grown and doing fine arguing amongst themselves without me now. so i don't need anymore.... arguments that is..

 

also don't forget... we can carry a stack of concrete blocks but argue when one more glass jar puts them into "over encumbrance"

 

well stack of concrete blocks is "mechanic" stuff but enemy design is "lore" stuff - in skyrim you find in 20 people battles but in books you can read about great battles . In stalker "normal" zombies are cannon but it was cuted because it looks bad.  In l4d were screamer but he was cut . why? boomer were more realistic idea ( you can easier find fat guy that crazy guy from asylum) and mechanic better .  That's way in days gone there is no 50 ft big zombie mass like resident evil 5 and 7 , flame zombie . But there are newt- zombie children because well : in this world children don't magical desapear like  in l4d2 for example and change diffrent that normal zombie  ( this same situation like no more room in hell). So yeah it could more realistic when we were forced to put concret on barrow  but it will be programic hell right (and lost of time ) ?  But change flame zombie into dunno weak zombie ( old model but more details , weaker version on normal zombie  ) ? maybe 2-3 weeks of work.

And that's why horned was removed

Edited June 12, 2021 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[MechanicalLens]

2 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Really?? I thought you'd seen all the info about the new city layouts considering you're here 99% of the time! 

 

I'm always the last to know about these sorts of things.

[GrifterMan]

Alright... so either you lot are being particularly boring and inane with your posts (which is entirely possible) or the Pimps are really busy with something. Last post by a Dev was Gazz on June 4th.

 

Hmm. Time to put on the ol' tinfoil hat. 

[Aldranon]

18 hours ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

Where did they mention anything about city/town layouts? I would like to see for myself.

 

MM mentioned that long segments of road and Cul-de-sac's will be a thing.

 

I simply extrapolated from that, to would could be done.

[MechanicalLens]

DON'T disturb the lights in the Navezgane high school gymnasium, or everything will come crashing down and you will die.

[Aldranon]

3 hours ago, Aldranon said:

 

MM mentioned that long segments of road and Cul-de-sac's will be a thing.

 

I simply extrapolated from that, to would could be done.

 

Just in case, for any reason:  

So, you now have the technology to make a flat stretch of road, the next (small?) step is to make a flat segment of "non-road" adjacent to the road segment for POI's.

 

To can have it zoned to industrial, residential, commercial and any sub-zoning(tract housing, town housing) or "Any".  So each POI has zoning type(s) where it can be placed.  You would want some designation that allows the POI to be placed anywhere.  TFP had something like this (or talked about it) at one point I believe.

 

[spud42]

you forgot to add "ask me how i know..." lol

 

[hiemfire]

9 hours ago, MechanicalLens said:

DON'T disturb the lights in the Navezgane high school gymnasium, or everything will come crashing down and you will die.

Got a little greedy for electrical parts and triggered a SI check?

[MechanicalLens]

7 hours ago, hiemfire said:

Got a little greedy for electrical parts and triggered a SI check?

 

*Long sigh* Yep.

[ad65309445]

On 2020/10/30 at AM6点00分, SnowDog1942 said:

 

Yes, I don't like this either. It is foreseeable that I will wear the wrong clothes when I go out, not to mention that I will need to do two things. 

Edited June 14, 2021 by ad65309445
change wrong word (see edit history)

[Matt115]

1 minute ago, Games'n'Grumble said:

Hi @faatal ! Is there anything known about how often different types of zombies will appear in the world? For example, I am glad that the zombie lumberjack will appear not only in the snow biome. What about, for example, a football player and a cheerleader? Earlier, @madmole said that they will be removed from the game, because their appearance is only possible at school or at the stadium. But maybe devs will change the models and make them more possible? BigMama appears only inside buildings, the farmer can rarely be found in the world etc... so many players think that there are too few zombies in the game, although there are about 25 types. This is a lot! So you could just equalize the chances of appearing in the world. Can we hope for that? 🙂

Well i hope they will return cheeledeer more offten because well zombies are going everywhere so i'm sure some for example hazmat can go to dessert etc.   btw i wish it will be someday more "biom zombies" rotten corpses on greyard ,  dry zombie on desert, drowned near lakes, wild child ( in age of cheeledeer girl in plant fiber ) in forest, backpack survivor in snowbiomm prisoners in prison etc

[Matt115]

32 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

@The Dev who's Working on the Drone:

someone posted these interesting questions on Steam... 

 

Thanks

 

Well good questions but i hope they will make drons as "flying bombs" only xd like in iraq pakistan etc