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Should repair be changed to fix the game economy?


As in the title should it change and how?  

32 members have voted

  1. 1. Choose your answer:

    • Yes.
      4
    • Yes with option A from the main post.
      1
    • Yes with option B from the main post.
      0
    • Yes, with both options from the main post.
      1
    • No.
      12
    • No, especially not with option A from the main post.
      3
    • No, especially not with option B from the main post.
      0
    • No, especially not with options from the main post.
      9
    • Dont care.
      0
    • Other opinion. (please write a comment.)
      2


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5 hours ago, Scyris said:

TFP is already taking away a ton of playstyle choices as it is,

Huh? They already took away repair mechanics, because in earlier Alphas you couldn't repair endless.

 

5 hours ago, Scyris said:

lets not give them more idea's of stuff they can take away.

The suggested changes don't remove any playstyle choices, but add new ones. The complaints usually end up with, "but that doesn't fit to MY playstyle, so don't do it".

 

But if i take a look at the poll results, obviously most people are care bears. ;)

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Might as well remove repairing from the game completely given its current state - nothing would change, except not having to repeat a tedious series of clicks, that involves zero decision making or engagement, except maybe during the earliest stages of your playthrough.

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18 hours ago, RestInPieces said:

Might as well remove repairing from the game completely given its current state - nothing would change, except not having to repeat a tedious series of clicks, that involves zero decision making or engagement, except maybe during the earliest stages of your playthrough.

Well, you must make or find the repair kits, remember to carry them around, and remember to fix regularly your gear. I think that's fine.

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1 hour ago, Rince said:

Well, you must make or find the repair kits, remember to carry them around, and remember to fix regularly your gear. I think that's fine.

If repair kits were actually rare then there would be at least some decisions to be made.... but they're not.   So there really is no reason not to repair anything that you use whenever it breaks.   RIP is 100% correct.

 

20 hours ago, RestInPieces said:

series of clicks, that involves zero decision making or engagement

 

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15 minutes ago, Kalen said:

If repair kits were actually rare then there would be at least some decisions to be made....

They are not just rare to loot, you can also craft them for basically nothing. Except maybe from early early game we never had a shortage of repair kits. We usually even do repair found items before selling them to the trader. So after looting a big POI there are easily spent 30 repair kits onto items we want to sell. We have enough of them, there is not a single thought spent on if we can afford to repair something.

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2 hours ago, Kalen said:

If repair kits were actually rare then there would be at least some decisions to be made.... but they're not.   So there really is no reason not to repair anything that you use whenever it breaks.   RIP is 100% correct.

 

 

But at most is a decision about repairing it or not. If you have the materials you do, if not you don't. And that's all of it.

 

Now, if you want more busywork, sure, you can make them craftable with their corresponding parts.

And making them only repaireable in an special workstation.

Or you can make that the item degrade a lvl each repair.

 

The thing is if brings something fun to the game.

 

And that's quite subjetive. For me, doesn't. It hinders gameplay.

Of course, for you it's fun gameplay.

 

Quite a dilemma, isn't? But anyways useless, because The Pimps does what the Pimps wants. 😆

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1 minute ago, Rince said:

But at most is a decision about repairing it or not. If you have the materials you do, if not you don't. And that's all of it.

Thats my point....except for very early game you always have repair kits available.  Very early game you seldom have items that even need a repair kit anyway.

2 minutes ago, Rince said:

Now, if you want more busywork, sure, you can make them craftable with their corresponding parts.

Heh, I dont want busywork at all.... I want the systems in the game to either have interesting mechanics or meaningful choices... the current repair system has neither.  

There are many ways you could add meaningful choices to repairing.   For example:

  • You could make repair kits far more scarce making you choose what is worth repairing with your limited resources
  • You could add item degradation making you have to choose when its worthwhile to use an item
  • You could make repairs take far longer than they currently do making you better plan out when you might have to repair and/or have a backup item available

These are just some examples.

 

Its not really a question of whats fun or not.... I mean its fun to have an M60 with unlimited ammo and mow down hordes of zombies.... it's about what makes compelling game play.   Clicking a repair button every now and then without even having to think about it isn't compelling to me.

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Kalen said:

Its not really a question of whats fun or not.... I mean its fun to have an M60 with unlimited ammo and mow down hordes of zombies.... it's about what makes compelling game play.   Clicking a repair button every now and then without even having to think about it isn't compelling to me.

In the late game you have both. Unlimited ammo and unlimited repair kits. But apparently nobody has a problem with unlimited ammunition.
 

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6 minutes ago, Kalen said:

Thats my point....except for very early game you always have repair kits available.  Very early game you seldom have items that even need a repair kit anyway.

Heh, I dont want busywork at all.... I want the systems in the game to either have interesting mechanics or meaningful choices... the current repair system has neither.  

There are many ways you could add meaningful choices to repairing.   For example:

  • You could make repair kits far more scarce making you choose what is worth repairing with your limited resources
  • You could add item degradation making you have to choose when its worthwhile to use an item
  • You could make repairs take far longer than they currently do making you better plan out when you might have to repair and/or have a backup item available

These are just some examples.

 

Its not really a question of whats fun or not.... I mean its fun to have an M60 with unlimited ammo and mow down hordes of zombies.... it's about what makes compelling game play.   Clicking a repair button every now and then without even having to think about it isn't compelling to me.

 

 

 

Well, if you want that just remove repairing, then you have a meaningful choice everytime you use anything, because the clock is always tickling and every use your piece of gear is a step closer to be gone.

 

Of course, I would hate it.

 

Anyways, we're again at the same point, isn't? What's compelling gameplay for you is boring busywork/grind for me.

 

By the way, which is your idea for making repair kits more scarse? Which should be the new recipe?

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6 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

In the late game you have both. Unlimited ammo and unlimited repair kits. But apparently nobody has a problem with unlimited ammunition.

Why do you think that?   Plenty of people have a problem with unlimited ammo.... it's just not the topic of this conversation.

 

6 minutes ago, Rince said:

Well, if you want that just remove repairing

When RIP suggested removing repairing, I believe he also meant removing durability as well.   If items last forever by just clicking repair every now and then, you might as well just make them last forever and get rid of repair entirely.

 

7 minutes ago, Rince said:

By the way, which is your idea for making repair kits more scarse? Which should be the new recipe?

No idea... hadn't given it much thought.   I'd prefer item degradation, myself. 

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i just think that anything that uses Parts should be repaired with Parts. Say you're Level 6 Auto shotgun is REALLY broken i mean down to Zero, then you would need 6 parts to repair it (the Lower the level, the less parts)

Repair kits can be used to make a Short term Repair, if you're on the go and you need to do i small quick fix you uses a Repair kit, However you they have a limit to how many you can uses before you NEED Parts to repair it (3 times) Repair kits can still be used to Repair Cars and armor but again its short term. 

 

Say you're Iron Pick broke and you need a Repair, you can uses a Repair kit to do a Quick small repair, but if you want to max out the repair you need Iron.

Steel tools would need Steel tool parts
Shotguns would need shotgun parts

Bows would need Bow/crossbow parts
ETC

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3 minutes ago, Kalen said:

Why do you think that?   Plenty of people have a problem with unlimited ammo.... it's just not the topic of this conversation.

 

When RIP suggested removing repairing, I believe he also meant removing durability as well.   If items last forever by just clicking repair every now and then, you might as well just make them last forever and get rid of repair entirely.

 

No idea... hadn't given it much thought.   I'd prefer item degradation, myself. 

Well, I was just saying because you wanted more meaningful choices, not regarding what RIP said. And besides of the fun factor, that's a very meaningful choice.

 

The thing with item degradation is that only would work if we can craft T6 again. With random results, like the items from looting.

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2 minutes ago, Kalen said:

Why do you think that? 

Because I've never seen a thread or a posting where someone complains that you find too much ammo or it is too cheap to craft.
Quite the opposite. They complain that you find not enough ammo or that you use more ammo to clear a T5 than you find etc.

 

But now back to the repair kits.

 

I took a look at the loot table. The largest quantities of repair kits can be found in car parts crates. But according to the loot table it is not the most common item in these boxes. The probability is high that you will find tools, parts and schematics rather than repair kits. A player may be very lucky but usually you will have to craft them yourself.

 

With the vehicle damage system the Fun Pimps want to move away from fixing everything with repair kits. Then you will need different parts for certain damages. Just like critical injuries need different treatments. Then you can make a meaningful decision whether to take the long way across the road or drive cross-country.
 

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6 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

I took a look at the loot table. The largest quantities of repair kits can be found in car parts crates. But according to the loot table it is not the most common item in these boxes. The probability is high that you will find tools, parts and schematics rather than repair kits. A player may be very lucky but usually you will have to craft them yourself.

I can only tell you from experience that I always end up with stacks of repair kits... more than I'd ever need.   I'd be curious to hear from anyone, that plays with default settings, that has a problem keeping items repaired.

6 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

Because I've never seen a thread or a posting where someone complains that you find too much ammo or it is too cheap to craft.

I have.... but by all means, start a thread on it.  I'd agree with you.

Edited by Kalen (see edit history)
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52 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

I took a look at the loot table. The largest quantities of repair kits can be found in car parts crates. But according to the loot table it is not the most common item in these boxes. The probability is high that you will find tools, parts and schematics rather than repair kits. A player may be very lucky but usually you will have to craft them yourself.

If my math is correct, here's the chance of getting at least one Repair Kit from the containers which have them. This takes into account the min/max count of items you can get from a container, i.e. the number of RNG "rolls" that are taken when opening the container. It does not take into account the # of Repair Kits you will get if RNG hits on "Repair Kit" as a reward.

 

For example, the cntLootCrateCarParts will return from 10-25 Repair Kits 😲 if RNG lands on "Repair Kit" in its loot table.

 

We usually end up with a decent stockpile of Repair Kits after a couple/few in-game weeks.

 

Container Probability
cntLootCrateCarParts 23.7%
cntLootCrateShotgunMessiah 16.0%
cntRollingToolBoxClosed 14.3%
cntStoreShelfSingleBottomHardware01 14.3%
cntToolBoxClosed 14.3%
cntGarageStorage 5.1%
cntLootCrateMoPowerElectronics 3.2%
cntLootCrateWorkingStiffs 3.2%
cntCollapsedWorkbench 1.6%
cntBusSchool 1.5%
cntCar03SedanDamage0Master 1.5%
cntCar03SedanDamage1Master 1.5%
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6 minutes ago, Boidster said:

If my math is correct, here's the chance of getting at least one Repair Kit from the containers which have them. This takes into account the min/max count of items you can get from a container, i.e. the number of RNG "rolls" that are taken when opening the container. It does not take into account the # of Repair Kits you will get if RNG hits on "Repair Kit" as a reward.

 

For example, the cntLootCrateCarParts will return from 10-25 Repair Kits 😲 if RNG lands on "Repair Kit" in its loot table.

 

We usually end up with a decent stockpile of Repair Kits after a couple/few in-game weeks.

 

Container Probability
cntLootCrateCarParts 23.7%
cntLootCrateShotgunMessiah 16.0%
cntRollingToolBoxClosed 14.3%
cntStoreShelfSingleBottomHardware01 14.3%
cntToolBoxClosed 14.3%
cntGarageStorage 5.1%
cntLootCrateMoPowerElectronics 3.2%
cntLootCrateWorkingStiffs 3.2%
cntCollapsedWorkbench 1.6%
cntBusSchool 1.5%
cntCar03SedanDamage0Master 1.5%
cntCar03SedanDamage1Master 1.5%

Thanks for digging that up, it is what I am suspecting is the source of the frustration (not uncommon even at low gs to get a full 25 kits when they show up in my experience). That number could be tuned back a bit on the bottom end (to like maybe 5 or 6) and the upper end could drop to 10 if not a little lower and I'd be fine with it. The idea of removal of repair kits from the game or requiring "parts" to repair can go jump off a cliff.

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2 hours ago, RipClaw said:

Because I've never seen a thread or a posting where someone complains that you find too much ammo or it is too cheap to craft.

Lots of people complained about getting stacks of 120 bullets from low level quests.

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3 hours ago, Kalen said:

I have.... but by all means, start a thread on it.  I'd agree with you.

Why should I? If I don't like something, I can mod it. Then the problem is solved for me.

I am not a game designer and therefore I don't have the knowledge or experience to decide if something is good for a game or not. I can only decide that for myself.

 

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

Lots of people complained about getting stacks of 120 bullets from low level quests.

I have always understood this in the context that players complain that they get ammunition but don't find any guns.

 

I heard in the Developer Stream that MadMole said that the amount of ammunition you will find in the beginning will be very small, so you have to decide whether to fight in close combat to save ammo or if the threat is big enough to sacrifice the ammunition.
 

Edited by RipClaw (see edit history)
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2 hours ago, Boidster said:

If my math is correct, here's the chance of getting at least one Repair Kit from the containers which have them.

I didn't say that you don't get any at all but I think that some players were just very lucky and now they think that everyone finds so many repair kits.

I found a few in this playthrough but not a lot. This is RNG.

 

That's also the reason why I don't like the idea of using parts to repair because parts can't be crafted and it depends on luck if you find parts or not and I don't like it when something depends on luck.

 

Edited by RipClaw (see edit history)
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31 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

I have always understood this in the context that players complain that they get ammunition but don't find any guns.

 

I heard in the Developer Stream that MadMole said that the amount of ammunition you will find in the beginning will be very small, so you have to decide whether to fight in close combat to save ammo or if the threat is big enough to sacrifice the ammunition.
 

Then they would not have complained about too much ammo but about having ammo at all and no guns.

Certainly there were complaints about the stone age and having no guns too, so putting them into the same drawer might be an easy mistake.

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39 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

That's also the reason why I don't like the idea of using parts to repair because parts can't be crafted and it depends on luck if you find parts or not and I don't like it when something depends on luck.

Soo much this. Yet some love having to pull the bandit's arm to get anything.

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20 hours ago, Liesel Weppen said:

They are not just rare to loot, you can also craft them for basically nothing. Except maybe from early early game we never had a shortage of repair kits. We usually even do repair found items before selling them to the trader. So after looting a big POI there are easily spent 30 repair kits onto items we want to sell. We have enough of them, there is not a single thought spent on if we can afford to repair something.

I still remember  randomly finding a full stack of repair kits in a garage.

I believe that repairing could be the key to fixing the economy because no matter how much ammo or guns you find at the start if you cant use them much because you got no repair packs early on and the alternatives are either expensive or take too much time.

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Well, that's it then.

 

If having too many repair kits is a issue, then they can change so you don't have the chance to find anymore a full stack. Make it appear in stack of 1-5 and problem solved.

Not need to reinvent the wheel here.

 

15 hours ago, meganoth said:

Lots of people complained about getting stacks of 120 bullets from low level quests.

But... why?

I mean, if they're giving me a job I expect some kind of decent pay.

And no, a stone shovel and a bow are not precisely good reward you bully trader!

 

And for lvl 5 tier ones, no, a full stack of 7.62 is not even worth it. I can spend more cleaning the place! (But of course, I'm not the best sharpshooter in the world... more like a dejected from the Imperial marksmanship Academy).

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I have no interest in "fixing the economy", because I don't believe this game has an economy. Could repair be made a more engaging mechanic? Absolutely. The old days of combining parts on the workbench were much more engaging than what we have now, but that's neither here nor there.

 

To add my anecdotal experience, I use a lot more repair kits than I find, but that's probably because I repair all decent value items before selling them. Still, I don't have a problem with kits because I prioritize the ingredients for them very highly in my play routines...I always have iron (first from prodigious scrapping, then from mining), I get myself a working forge either at base or in a POI as quickly as I can, and I always collect bones, glue, and tape. Once my finances are secure, I also buy glue and tape from traders. Then it's just a matter of making a fresh stack of 25 every other day or so.

Edited by Psychodabble (see edit history)
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23 minutes ago, Psychodabble said:

I have no interest in "fixing the economy", because I don't believe this game has an economy.

Every invest-vs-reward is an "economy". How much is a repair kit worth? Basically nothing, because you find tons of them and also can craft them easily, same applies to executing a repair process (because the doing itself is quite pointless). That's economy.

If anything is massively under- or overrated, it's a bad economy.

 

And there are dependencies of that. If repairing wouldn't be that "cheap", it would increase the value of found items. So once you have a found a t3 ak-47 and find another one, there is only few you can do with it. Selling it to the trader probably is done in the most cases. Assuming you are able to craft a higher tier AK, you also might scrap it for parts.

But if repairing wouldn't be that cheap or had other backdraws, there is another valuable option: Keep it as a backup.

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