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madmole

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3 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Define "realism". I mean, you're already out of whack here, since zombies don't exist! :madgrin:

 

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I almost put realism in quotes since as you say we are in a tanstasy game. But the definition goes beyond just fantasy games and applies to games that are based on "reality".   For fantasy games ita the immersion into the fantasy world as created and intended by the creator. 

 

3 hours ago, Morloc said:

 

, I think they're breaking their own immersion and realism if these creatures decide to tear down the supports. I mean, they ~might~ circle around under the shack in frustration and ~maybe~ bump into a support, but they want me, not the wooden column. 

 

Entities that don't conform to YOUR ideas of behavior don't break immersion. That is all on you taking your preconceived notions about how a created world should operate and imposing that on the game. 

 

The original NoTLD zombies didn't run. Someone made a movie and wanted them to run, and do they did. Do zombies want brains or just the flesh of the living? Can they climb ladders?  Are they trying to eat people or just bite them to spread a virus?   They can use sledge hammers now?

 

Just a few examples of the different expressions of zombies in fiction. The creator creates the world and we  immerse ourselves into it. 

Or not, but thats a personal choice. 

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Works of fiction are simply different.

When people mention "Romero zombies" most don't realise that this does include zombies smart enough to ride a horse or fire a rifle.

 

Everyone has their favourite book/movie universe but that does not make it any more correct than all the others. 😃

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12 minutes ago, Gazz said:

Works of fiction are simply different.

When people mention "Romero zombies" most don't realise that this does include zombies smart enough to ride a horse or fire a rifle.

 

Everyone has their favourite book/movie universe but that does not make it any more correct than all the others. 😃

 

I always found those "smart zombies" creepy and unrealistic, at least those from the same or similar universe of the walking dead where the narrative was clearly that a virus came to life in their already dead brain, so the brain itself couldn't really "think" on its own and instead the whole body was controlled only by the virus. I can't really imagine how the little virus that is I don't know, couple of nanometers in size could handle the control over the whole body and still have enough of its own "thinking capacity" to "think smartly" for the zombie as well. Pair it with some other shenanigans, like mutations, help it with some sort of external brain control device maybe, and it would make sense, but the virus alone controlling the body while thinking smartly for the zombie is way off.

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15 minutes ago, Lord Morphleyes said:

That is all on you taking your preconceived notions about how a created world should operate and imposing that on the game. 

 

Perhaps, because that is what people do. ALL of us.

 

If I were to play a game called Deathrace2525 some of my notions about the game would involve vehicles, or at least a race. It would likely be in the future. If it turned out to be a sim involving pastel anthropomorphic Volkswagens (with cute German accents) I think I'd be putting my lack of immersion on the developer. There's a certain  amount of artistic license we should all accept, but the word genre implies grounding. 7D2D has a flavor that's evolved little over last decade or so. That's not surprising given that we're still beta, and don't have much backstory. Over those years I've seen few people who were "good" with the idea of "Zombie Engineers". I suspect zombie sorcerers or laser rifles would probably break 7D2D's immersion too, even though they might be perfectly fine outside of this subgenre.

Zombies that understand structural integrity and complex pathing were never introduced as a deliberate feature. They're here because something was needed to provide a challenge to player bases/safehouses/etc. given other limitations of the game engine.

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 💀

 

 

12 minutes ago, mr.devolver said:

I always found those "smart zombies" creepy and unrealistic, at least those from the same or similar universe of the walking dead where the narrative was clearly that a virus came to life in their already dead brain, so the brain itself couldn't really "think" on its own and instead the whole body was controlled only by the virus. I can't really imagine how the little virus that is I don't know, couple of nanometers in size could handle the control over the whole body and still have enough of its own "thinking capacity" to "think smartly" for the zombie as well. Pair it with some other shenanigans, like mutations, help it with some sort of external brain control device maybe, and it would make sense, but the virus alone controlling the body while thinking smartly for the zombie is way off.

 

To play devil's advocate, imagine that the virus lives in the nervous system and only sustains enough of the brain's functionality (as part of its own lifecycle) for the more feral, base, animal instincts and motor skills to function. With a more exotic version, higher brain functions ("fire bad", "food always in houses", "redheads taste good") might still work even if there wasn't a functioning consciousness anymore.

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 💀

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7 minutes ago, Morloc said:

To play devil's advocate, imagine that the virus lives in the nervous system and only sustains enough of the brain's functionality (as part of its own lifecycle) for the more feral, base, animal instincts and motor skills to function. With a more exotic version, higher brain functions ("fire bad", "food always in houses", "redheads taste good") might still work even if there wasn't a functioning consciousness anymore.

For this to work, it would need more than just the information of what tastes good and what tastes yucky, and virus alone wouldn't be capable of that decision making, i.e. "Leave that rock alone, that's not edible, go after that survivor's brain instead."

 

Chickens can learn what tastes good and they eat it every time they have a chance, but their brain is the size of a peanut, so certainly not something so small you cannot even see it with a naked eye.

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4 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Define "realism". I mean, you're already out of whack here, since zombies don't exist! :madgrin:

Can you tell me if you consider my current A20 base cheesy please?

I'm asking because I don't think my base is like that, since I actually fight and kill zeds and my gate CAN be broken.

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i would say no as the zombies could easily get through an iron hatch if you cannot kill them fast enough eg not fighting them or you are trying to spam repair it without a nail gun and for the most part it isnt messing with the ai

Edited by Callum123456789 (see edit history)
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5 hours ago, Morloc said:

1) Bring back and expand upon the spider zombie. A zombie that climbs or jumps and then tries to chomp through a wall or window when it gets close. 

2) Beef up vultures' ranged attack a bit and have them (periodically) agro on zombies too. Their AoE ranged attack would be landing all over the place creating chaos and breaching defenses in places you may not expect. Don't make them carpet-bombing death machines....just agro 5-10% of the time on some poor zombie that they thought looked too fresh ;)

3) We've got exploding cops, putrid puss spewing zombies and suicide vest zombies; I don't think it'd be a great leap to put a Crawling Pustule zombie in the game. Imagine a crawler/torso which was infected like a cop, but can haul itself up walls. Slow, weak, but will explode like a cop if you let it. You'd need to watch for these everywhere and/or create defenses against them. They wouldn't be zombie engineers, but they would path in three dimensions to you.

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 💀

Your evil is spectacular, beautiful and mesmerizing in its simplicity.  *passes over her soul* 

 

I'm actually appreciating the changes made for 20.1 and wanted to mention how very much I appreciate the bookshelf change as well as the additional mailbox books.  The bookshelves were much needed though I'd imagine the mailboxes will be very slightly tuned a bit more.  Thank you very much for all your hard work!  Everything is running beautifully for me with the update.

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3 hours ago, Roland said:

It’s still just entities. Every case you listed showed entities. A falling block is different than a placed block. Regular blocks are not falling off the world.

 

Give them some time. ALL fixes are “supposed fixes” until they bear up under rigorous play. This is what experimental is for— to determine if the supposed fixes did in fact fix those things on a large scale. It’s not advised to just assume that if something is in the fixed section that it truly is forever fixed and done. It takes testing over time to determine that. 

Over time you say? Nah, just standing underground, in a player-made POI, cave or underground tunnel is sufficient for this issue to go on a rampage. Some mesh loading issue may also occur in multiplayer, by going fast in several directions with vehicles.

 

So yeah, just repro it with this:

 

Spoiler

@faatal

I have a repro stress test for the entities falling through the world that you might find definitive to check if there still are issues with the "falling through the world" fix:


1. Spawn 64 or more Zds in the same location in a biome (desert is best as it has low-hp blocks further down forcing the issue in the fastest way ).


2. Go into god mode to make it quick and place yourself directly 30-50 blocks below the spawned entities making sure they all see you and they are digging for you.


3. Notice that the crowd of zds starts going towards you digging straight down.


4. They will noticeably start falling through the world as some of them surpass the terrain mesh, never to be seen again.


5. In a20 b38 you can very well see 15 or more of those 64 entities fall down due to this issue in that particular situation. 


I hope this stresses your stress test even more, lol.


In 20.1 exp the issue of many entities falling through the world still happens. Not fixed.

 

And proof of concept if testers feel lazy:

 

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Those are 64 radiated bikers, a common amount of entities when a screamer comes with her family for Christmas. Notice that we are talking about 20% falling down in the desert, and around 10% in other biomes with harder floor.

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Interesting….in another post a player was seeing stuff fall through player blocks but not the ground and that stuff was falling less frequently with 20.1 than 20. Sounds like things are better for some but not all people. I’m comfortable saying the correct tweak will come at some point. I’ll just keep picking up my vehicles when not driving and watch out for zombies fighting while standing inside a block.

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1 hour ago, Morloc said:

 

If I were to play a game called Deathrace2525 some of my notions about the game would involve vehicles, or at least a race. It would likely be in the future. If it turned out to be a sim involving pastel anthropomorphic Volkswagens (with cute German accents) I think I'd be putting my lack of immersion on the developer.

Please, for the love of all that is sacred,  tell me that you made this up.  Thats just wrong man, wrong. 

 

 

I seen a bear shake a tree once to get a bee hive to fall so a zombie attacking something that is below someone ita trying to get to seems reasonable to me.  

Who's to say that them bashing a support isn't the physical action of them trying to climb up but there dumb zombie brains only know smash.  

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so after playing 20.1 on a brand new server, the  255+ gamestage loot feels so much better. 

how ever there is still no .44 magnuma ammo in any loot containers (zombies bags, tier 3/4/5 containers/munitons boxes etc)

I know it is a confirmed bug but when will this be fixed?

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On 1/19/2022 at 3:31 PM, Blake_ said:

@faatal

I have a repro stress test for the entities falling through the world that you might find definitive to check if there still are issues with the "falling through the world" fix:

1. Spawn 64 or more Zds in the same location in a biome (desert is best as it has low-hp blocks further down forcing the issue in the fastest way ).

2. Go into god mode to make it quick and place yourself directly 30-50 blocks below the spawned entities making sure they all see you and they are digging for you.

3. Notice that the crowd of zds starts going towards you digging straight down.

4. They will noticeably start falling through the world as some of them surpass the terrain mesh, never to be seen again.

5. In a20 b38 you can very well see 15 or more of those 64 entities fall down due to this issue in that particular situation. 

I hope this stresses your stress test even more, lol.

In 20.1 exp the issue of many entities falling through the world still happens. Not fixed.

This is a different test than I was doing, since I used the most common case for testing and time is limited since we are wanting to get some experimental versions out there. Now that destroy area changes are in, I'll try this.

4 minutes ago, Star69 said:

Interesting….in another post a player was seeing stuff fall through player blocks but not the ground and that stuff was falling less frequently with 20.1 than 20. Sounds like things are better for some but not all people. I’m comfortable saying the correct tweak will come at some point. I’ll just keep picking up my vehicles when not driving and watch out for zombies fighting while standing inside a block.

Terrain or normal block colliders are similar, so the bug applies to either.

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1 hour ago, faatal said:

This is a different test than I was doing, since I used the most common case for testing and time is limited since we are wanting to get some experimental versions out there. Now that destroy area changes are in, I'll try this.

This was the worst case scenario, so if that repro stops working, then you'll know you fixed it. It's a hard nut to crack though. Clearing and respawning the entities as they fall might be the treatment and not the cure. And/or treating entities with their own "vehicle manager relocator" might prove to be too expensive.

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So, I'm curious... (in regards to the game only :P )

 

Has TFP received a SteamDeck to play with?

In regards to that will 7 days be supported on a SteamDeck? (Linux is already supported which *in theory* should make it easy; while the SteamDeck is not as powerful as a modern desktop it does seem decent and the 720p resolution should make it not need outrageous horsepower)

 

Will Vulkan graphics ever be fully supported? It has been an option in the launcher, but labeled as not fully supported. I have had good success testing using it on an older machine with AMD graphics, but nVidia drivers do seem to have a few random lockups with it. Vulkan does seem to add as much as a 50% increase in FPS over OpenGL.

Or is Vulkan support based on the support that it receives from Unity?

 

I'v noticed a few "quirks" in a20... Should I file bug reports? Sometimes I wonder if a change was made and they might be working as intended. (e.g. I know that all workbenches being found destroyed is now intentional.)

One quirk is that when resetting a poi (but starting a quest at that poi,) that vending machines, cabinets, and appliances never change. In past Alphas when reseting a poi, working vending machines would sometimes be replaced with broken ones and vice-versa. I have not seen that happen yet in a20 and not sure if that is intentional. In the same reset, It seems that open cabinets and open stoves always reset to staying open; again in prior alphas some would change.

 

Should the same poi ever spawn in a single city? iirc this was something to report in a19... I found 2 or 3 of the same poi in my starting city. (Though I have to confirm it is an actual poi instead of part of a tile. It is the motorhome with a police cruiser and a shed in front of it. (I remember seeing this poi back in a19 when the police cruiser still had a distinctive paint job; it still says police cruiser when looting but lacks the distinctive appearance now)

 

I could also mention random slowdowns in fps/performance, but I have a guess more than one person has mentioned this already.

 

Hope this is the right place to ask these questions...

Thanks

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10 hours ago, Morloc said:

Zombies that understand structural integrity and complex pathing were never introduced as a deliberate feature. They're here because something was needed to provide a challenge to player bases/safehouses/etc. given other limitations of the game engine.

 

I don't understand how you know what expectations TFP has had with their zombies.  How would you know how it's being refined by their developers and new staff as meetings and new or old ideas are discussed?  It's entirely possible that TFP's expectations for Z's were higher but did not have time/staff/or resources to implement.  (and even if a singular person mentioned that it was done as you say, that does not negate any other reasons or previous ideas as well.)

 

Although a couple other posters posted 'reasonable' ideas for zombies attacking things instead of the person (as well as other behaviors) I would like to add to as well.


Everybody also keeps talking about 7D2D z's and viruses.  It doesn't just have to be about viruses.  I had stated an example earlier, but I resorted to using hyperbole as a means to induce imaginary thinking, and it didn't work as intended.  I would like to present my own current imagination/realism reasoning of TFP's z's.

 

------------  A Radiated Virused Nano-Robotic 7D2D Story -----------

 

Nano-robotics IS an existing SCIENCE.  In 7D2D, it just so happens there's a government lab in a bunker somewhere in Arizona developing the technology.  About 5-10 years in the future they have the nano-robots capable of strengthening bones, skin, fingernails, etc.  But, it's not capable of rebuilding or healing.  (Well, normally...)  They have have a limited hive-mind intelligence.

Then a limited nuclear war breaks out.  {any reason.)  And it has affected several research sites, virus research labs, nano-robotics labs, etc.  And some moron scientist at one of the nano-robotics lab believes he can manipulate the nano-robots to heal (wounds and/or radiation).  So they arranged for some radiated/virus-infected persons (or bodies) to be brought to the lab.

 

Well, unlike Reese's Peanut Butter cups, the mix of virus/radiation/nano-robots has created some very bad things.  (Hereafter referred to as rvnr's.)  And, while there is some consistency, there are also differences as well.  The rvnr's have 'decided' they want to multiply (survival...)  They don't care how or whom or what: animals, people, alive, dead, whatever.  But, they still haven't mastered rebuilding the host body back to what it was before they infected it.  (Well, mostly...)  But, they do provide added strength, stronger bones, stronger finger/toe nails, etc., AND some limited intelligence.  But, because it's not just tissue and muscles being FULLY driven by a organic brain, they don't move like 'living' things normally do.  Most have jerky moving (and moving speed is NOT a constant), head bobbing, while some are capable of jumping further distances, etc.  It also seems that sunlight has some kind of effect,  as most rvnr's seem slower in light.  It's been postulated the rvnr's are keeping energy expenditures lower, and using the light to help 'recharge their batteries'.  (That's a super simplified explanation.  They actually form 'conduits' from rvnr's on the host surface to feed the energy to the internal rvnr's.)

 

Some even made it to a police station, where some living police had holed up.  And these LEO's (Law Enforcement Officer's) had access to some military equipment.  Including various kinds of gas grenades.  Well, as you can imagine, there was a fight in close quarters where some gas was used, and some LEO's died.  And got 'infected' with the rvnr's.  The rvnr's 'thought' the gas was actually part of the host 'system' and so they modified the body to be able to keep producing it, and to hurl it when necessary.

 

It is also believed that there are aquatic form's of the rnvr's - but evidence has been extremely limited thus far.

 

And, (obviously!) some nano-robot z's have discovered how to use the radiation to re-heal some forms!  But, it may only work at a certain radiation percentage, radiation/virus percentage combo, damaged/dead body amount, etc.

 

And, because of the hive-mind some info/intelligence is being shared.  It's not known the extent of the info, or which z's, but some seem capable of limited 'learning'.  It is also not known how the info is shared (touch? blue-tooth? ...), but currently it seems to be very localized.  (Dang good thing - or everything would be toast!)

 

-------------

 

Btw - one probably should not assume avatar's are 'normal' people either.  They could have conditions that are bad: (insomnia, virus, disease, etc.) or good: like having some other kind of rvnr's that are helping 'build' the person.

 

And, just because something is a certain way now, this is still ALPHA, and very subject to change.

 

Edited by Quantum Blue (see edit history)
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3 hours ago, stretch611 said:

Should the same poi ever spawn in a single city? iirc this was something to report in a19... I found 2 or 3 of the same poi in my starting city. (Though I have to confirm it is an actual poi instead of part of a tile. It is the motorhome with a police cruiser and a shed in front of it. (I remember seeing this poi back in a19 when the police cruiser still had a distinctive paint job; it still says police cruiser when looting but lacks the distinctive appearance now)

 

You can find out the POI name by standing in its bounds and taking a screen shot with F11.  We would also need to know your seed / world name etc.  Your log file too.  When in doubt, click link in red banner above and file a report.  Thanks.

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Can I just step in and say Morloc has a point.

 

These Zombies with their homing digging and their lock on and whole support smashing in order to get to you. Yeah, no.

 

With this behaviour what's the need for bandits.

 

I'd argue the only reason these behave like this is because thats all TFP really can do since they wont make enormous zombie hordes a thing as standard with their game because of performance purposes.

 

In a world of the undead, semi-dead, not-dead-mental-infected-loonies (and guns,) the only thing that should really bother anyone is number.

 

Huge nunbers of them sweeping over you like a cannibalistic tsunami.

 

But as I said, performance and, inspite of the nice(ish) HD models (I say 'ish' because some of the models are beautiful and others like the janitor and new Lumberdwarf are just pffft...) the range is very limited.

 

Again because of the focus on variants of each (normal, feral, irradiated.)

 

On that point, can we expect more zombie variants in the future, as well as a mix up of the behaviour? (dragging leg, bees in the ears etc.)

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13 minutes ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

On that point, can we expect more zombie variants in the future, as well as a mix up of the behaviour? (dragging leg, bees in the ears etc.)

They already said this in one of the dev streams. They found a way to probably (they need to experiment a bit) give many variations with colors to zombies.

As for other special zombies, IIRC they said they're not done yet.

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12 hours ago, mr.devolver said:

For this to work, it would need more than just the information of what tastes good and what tastes yucky, and virus alone wouldn't be capable of that decision making, i.e. "Leave that rock alone, that's not edible, go after that survivor's brain instead."

 

Chickens can learn what tastes good and they eat it every time they have a chance, but their brain is the size of a peanut, so certainly not something so small you cannot even see it with a naked eye.

 

You are still assuming here that the virus does the thinking. But the idea is that the virus is just providing the fuel for the brain to work at a very basic level. We all are agreed the virus itself can't THINK itself, but lets assume its evolution found just the right virus code that makes lower brain functions work and its deactivation of SOME brain parts leads to a behavioural change as well.

 

Now even that theory is vastly short of a real explanation: How a body can work without blood pumping through the veins and where the energy to operate the body comes from?

But at least it makes a valiant attempt at explaining the brain function of any type of zombie we seen in movies.

 

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1 minute ago, meganoth said:

 

You are still assuming here that the virus does the thinking. But the idea is that the virus is just providing the fuel for the brain to work at a very basic level. We all are agreed the virus itself can't THINK itself, but lets assume its evolution found just the right virus code that makes lower brain functions work and its deactivation of SOME brain parts leads to a behavioural change as well.

 

Now even that theory is vastly short of a real explanation: How a body can work without blood pumping through the veins and where the energy to operate the body comes from?

But at least it makes a valiant attempt at explaining the brain function of any type of zombie we seen in movies.

 

Dead brain is a dead brain, there's no fuel that would bring it back to life in the first place. Also, at the time of death, the virus already has to be inside the body, don't you think it would take over the control long before its host dies?

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27 minutes ago, mr.devolver said:

Dead brain is a dead brain, there's no fuel that would bring it back to life in the first place.

 

You should maybe first find out what "death" exactly does to the brain before you try to shoot down a theory: https://www.livescience.com/61876-dying-brain-depression-wave.html

 

One thing the article alludes to is that oxygen is the (main) fuel that operates the brain (I'm pretty sure there is more to it, but on a layman level, this is the answer)

 

As you can read in this article the virus would have at least 5 minutes after death to provide either oxygen directly or something that fullfills the same function. Now how it does this is the magical part, but this is the only way the brain can still operate after death.

 

27 minutes ago, mr.devolver said:

Also, at the time of death, the virus already has to be inside the body, don't you think it would take over the control long before its host dies?

 

That is easily explained: The virus keeps the brain functioning on a very low level so higher brain functions like your conciousness can't interfere with it. I.e. it keeps the brain deprived of the full fuel intake it needs. As long as the blood is running through the veins, the brain has enough fuel to keep it running at 100% and whatever the virus would do, your conscience would prevent you from just eating your friends or humans generally.

 

 

There is a comparable method in computer science. Hackers operate computers at less than full voltage so that the computers still run, but run faulty, i.e. with incorrect behaviour. This can lead to the computer giving up its secrets, like passwords.

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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6 hours ago, stretch611 said:

Will Vulkan graphics ever be fully supported? It has been an option in the launcher, but labeled as not fully supported. I have had good success testing using it on an older machine with AMD graphics, but nVidia drivers do seem to have a few random lockups with it. Vulkan does seem to add as much as a 50% increase in FPS over OpenGL.

 

i have mentioned this myself before and was told there was no way that its 50% better so I'm glad you have done some testing and have seen the improvements as i saw them.

Hopefully one day it will be fully supported and work properly.

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4 hours ago, Quantum Blue said:

I don't understand how you know what expectations TFP has had with their zombies.  How would you know how it's being refined by their developers and new staff as meetings and new or old ideas are discussed?

 

 

TFP tout their progress on the game with release and patch notes.

They highlight and summarize new features, changes and fixes.

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 💀

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57 minutes ago, meganoth said:

You should maybe first find out what "death" exactly does to the brain before you try to shoot down a theory: https://www.livescience.com/61876-dying-brain-depression-wave.html

 

One thing the article alludes to is that oxygen is the (main) fuel that operates the brain (I'm pretty sure there is more to it, but on a layman level, this is the answer)

 

As you can read in this article the virus would have at least 5 minutes after death to provide either oxygen directly or something that fullfills the same function. Now how it does this is the magical part, but this is the only way the brain can still operate after death.

 

The virus is not capable to restore blood stream into brain to supply the brain with more oxygen and we all know that without oxygen the brain would soon die and there's no return. Nothing else would work either, the virus can't magically change how the human body works, certainly not to such extent as to modify its biological processes and what kind of chemicals it requires to function properly, so no other way would work to keep the body somewhat alive. Funny, the article which you linked to explains why what you say would be impossible, so please don't believe me, just read the article... :)

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