Alpha 20 Dev Diary

[Roland]

25 minutes ago, andydahl said:

I love 7 Days to Die in spite of the dev team.

 

Trust me. You love it because of them. 

[Gobarg]

I'm a bit on the fence TBH, I mean I like TFP but not sure if I Love them... 

 

Tell ya what...buy me a beer and we can get to know one another a bit more...

 

[BFT2020]

31 minutes ago, andydahl said:

One question for all you: How'd you like to get monthly updates -- both small and large -- on 7 Days? Don't tell me it's not possible as that's exactly what Facepunch delivers on Rust. Hell, I'd settle for twice a year updates, but if history is any guide, I'm sure TFPs would have trouble hitting those deadlines.

 

Don't they also automatically reset the servers every month and every month you start at zero?  Not sure I would like to have a game where if live forces me to take an extended break, I come back and everything has been reset to zero....

[Vapid Actions]

16 minutes ago, Roland said:

Of what? What product are you producing? Is it a video game? I'd like to know exactly how similar your job and our project manager's job is and whether your deliverables are at least on the same scale or even relatable to the deliverables our project manager is overseeing.

This goes back to ad hominem, however if it puts your mind at ease knowing - my developers create office software. Primarily for inventory management, client/contact management, advertising software, and automated analysis software. Most projects range from 1-2 years, though we do offer live (ongoing) development, and software modification solutions. I started as a programmer for the company, and worked my way up through team lead, manager, and project manager.
 

 

21 minutes ago, Roland said:

A20 as a whole is immensely complex. You would probably want to do a smaller update as your answer. TFP doesn't want to do that but that by itself doesn't mean they are just haphazardly throwing together whatever because it sounds cool.

If delays are happening, project management is failing. I'm not saying it's the PM's fault either, or any individual's fault. Though if this is because of the scope of a specific deliverable is making it unable to be reasonably estimated, then the scope should be decreased for more understanding and clearer management. As a developer, I cannot understate the amount of stress I went under due to unclear scopes and lack of specific timelines. It meant I never knew when something should be done, if I'm going too slow, if I'm going too fast and start causing bottlenecks to occur which cause stress on other developers. I eventually had a stress induced stroke because of poor project management. I remember one project where there was only two deliverables set for an entire year and a half project (imagine), and it was nauseating the amount of communication required wasting time and creating stress between developers trying to keep track of where everything was.

A deliverable shouldn't ever have a specific 'size', or specific 'timeline'. A deliverable should be a set of features, or functions which are dependent on each other. A single deliverable should be one "system" if you will. You should be able to look at a deliverable and say "yea, that fits into a box".  For example, in A20, "Weapons, Trader progression, Loot progression" is a nice little box. Everything is related to each other, and it's all part of the same system. "Terrain improvements, Biome difficulty, Random gen update" is another nice little box. These having nothing to do with the prior box, but would require the same kind of resources. I don't have your inside view, I can't say what all the employees specialties or divisions are, so I can't create the exact boxes the TFP team would need, but the key is 'logical boxes'. When I look over the A20 updates - while I love all the stuff coming. It's not a logical box. You have some building systems work, some AI system work, some quest system rework, new content additions, a bit of everything.

As far as deliverables being "haphazardly [thrown together]". There has never been a clear outline provided of what is going to be included, what the goal looks like, and features that seem core are often either abandoned in idea, or removed. This applies not only to the game as a whole, but each deliverable. One cycle "We're going to be adding 'x' to this deliverable", end of cycle "'x' has been pushed to next deliverable", then, maybe it just never comes up again. Deliverable outlines are not being either established or followed, at the very least in how they're portrayed to users.
 

 

32 minutes ago, Roland said:

They are at the opposite end of the spectrum from bankruptcy which, by the way, is an excellent sign that they are managing things well

 

You keep changing the goalposts on this one. Remember that the initial point had nothing to do with being an employee, or an employer. It has to do with setting expectations, failing to meet expectations, and the reactions people have to said failed expectations within a common and understandable scenario. I also never made any sort of indication that TFP is in any sort of financial difficulty, only that that bankruptcy is a threat to 'any' company for failing to provide to clients, as being fired is a threat to 'any' employee who fails to provide to their employer.

 

36 minutes ago, Roland said:

And I let you know that you are wrong based on my insider view of their operations which despite your professional experience you don't have and are just guessing at because they they decided to release in December instead of October 31

My observations have nothing to do with this one particular deliverable. My observations are from, well, now, years of experience with TFP and deliverable dates showing a consistent issue, how questions are answered (or not) in developer posts/videos (showing lack of defined project scope), and the release posts which are updated on the fly with features being added/removed, sometimes planned, then sometimes pushed back (showing lack of deliverable scope).

Honestly, as far as interpretation goes of things being 'haphazard' goes, is due to how often TFP re-write history. They remove or delete information that they feel is no longer correct or relevant instead of clarifying it's state, and why in addition to the old information. Sometimes it's small things like on the first page here, changing the date of the expected release, deleting the old one as if it there never was an older timelines, sometimes it's more serious like the removal of the first video explaining the game's outline from kickstarter since the scope keeps changing. The one question that keeps coming up that's never had an answer is "what is gold for TFP?".

[Matt115]

23 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Because they felt it needed more work. There are many examples in the industry of studios who release incomplete updates simply because they were directed to release on the date that was given ready or not. In this case there was no official date given-- only an estimate and when that date came they decided to keep working on it internally rather than release it to experimental as it was.

Well maybe this is solution? well honstly better to get few thing more often - 1 time add guns, after 2 weeks hd zombies etc. Well this is too late in A20 sitution. So maybe devs will do this in their next game.

1 hour ago, Roland said:

 

Of what? What product are you producing? Is it a video game? I'd like to know exactly how similar your job and our project manager's job is and whether your deliverables are at least on the same scale or even relatable to the deliverables our project manager is overseeing. Your general description of what you do is very similar to what I witness as I "see" TFP work. They have a very similar structure in place that you describe. I also am privy to the reports that are posted for completed deliverables and workflow appears to me to be in a good place and not bogged down at all. There is quite a lot of instant collaboration that comes up as artists or level designers need a programmer to make something happen that has them snagged and I'm actually quite impressed with how fluid the team is across different departments.

 

Again, we would need to know the industry you are coming from. There are differences in complexity and while the individual parts that each of the programmers are easily accounted for in terms of time at the start, A20 as a whole is immensely complex. You would probably want to do a smaller update as your answer. TFP doesn't want to do that but that by itself doesn't mean they are just haphazardly throwing together whatever because it sounds cool.

 

And I let you know that you are wrong based on my insider view of their operations which despite your professional experience you don't have and are just guessing at because they they decided to release in December instead of October 31.

 

Well i can't split in parts so :

1. Well there is a diffrent ways to manage to create games. When i was studing a one professor told : one time i was asking well know salesman about how they manage to get so good income by selling "farmers thing". He told he know nothing about farmers things , he sold a lot of thing. He don't need to know how this work just how to sell this. So most projects are similiar. Not this same but similiar. 

2. Well that will be similar to  before: i think A20 is too big. better option would be to split in two parts and 1 part release maybe in May ( idk how many they had done) and another part now as A21.  Well i think new models of guns and zombie woudn't destroy anything. Well they want to release 1 patch per year so people are furiouse this is logical.  So they will finish this game maybe after 4 5 years. But what about new game? i'm now sure 100% that will be not sandbox similiar to 7dtd. So if we wnat to see something similiar we need to wait dunno 10 years perchaps?

[faatal]

On 11/27/2021 at 10:35 AM, MechanicalLens said:

Is it too late to report on the bug tracker? I found an issue where if you enter the interface of a shotgun turret, SMG turret, dart trap, electric timer relay, motion sensor, or spotlight, the ability to nerdpole or pick up frames is severely crippled. In other words, your camera has to be in a very specific position to pick up or place frames, and sometimes it won't let you do this at all. A simple relog fixes this.

I tried this with spotlight and shotgun turret and saw no issue.

[Doomofman]

8 minutes ago, faatal said:

I tried this with spotlight and shotgun turret and saw no issue.

I've seen this issue too, not sure if maybe it's to do with having lots of "camera" devices like turrets and motion sensors set up

[Roland]

49 minutes ago, Vapid Actions said:

This goes back to ad hominem

 

Only if you assume that I think creating office software is contemptable somehow. I don't and I wasn't trying to set you up for a personal attack based on your industry. As I said, I think that the way you create projects and set workflow is probably different for office software and game software and your experience might not jive exactly with what needs to happen or does happen in a video game studio. You are the one who has set yourself up as knowing what is good or bad based upon your experience so exactly what your experience entails is definitely part of the discussion and not simply an ad hominem fallacy to be ignored.

 

My son is a programmer in the event planning industry and from what he has shown me, his project cycles and workflow are quite a bit different than what I observe at TFP as well and it isn't a straight across comparable thing to say that what works and can be designated successful and right in one sphere is the same for the other.

 

55 minutes ago, Vapid Actions said:

If delays are happening, project management is failing.

 

If the update happens in a time frame that TFP is completely happy with is it still failure? If internally they were hopeful for October 31st because a Halloween release for a horror game would be cool but actually anytime before the end of the year was still acceptable for their goals did they really fail?  If they would have seen missing the October 31st date as a failure they most certainly would have released on that date and dealt with any blowback for needing to force restarts. But they are still within their internal timeline for when A20 must get pushed out so really they haven't missed anything. 

 

I'm not claiming that their project management is perfect. Of course, there can always be improvement and they do have those kinds of meetings as well where they look at their workflow and look at the management of the development cycle and look for ways to be better and improve. 

1 hour ago, Vapid Actions said:

You keep changing the goalposts on this one. Remember that the initial point had nothing to do with being an employee, or an employer. It has to do with setting expectations, failing to meet expectations, and the reactions people have to said failed expectations within a common and understandable scenario. I also never made any sort of indication that TFP is in any sort of financial difficulty, only that that bankruptcy is a threat to 'any' company for failing to provide to clients, as being fired is a threat to 'any' employee who fails to provide to their employer.

 

    No I haven't. You drew the analogy that an employee who misses a deadline too often gets fired. I pointed out that TFP is not an employee. You then clarified that a company that misses deadlines too often could go bankrupt because their clients are angry at not being well provided for. I then answered that the result of TFP's development practices is that they are about as far away from bankruptcy as you can get.

 

     They aren't just lucky. The game isn't good and people's favorite source of entertainment in spite of them. I'm saying that the results they have created both in terms of art (their game) and solvency (their business) speak loudly to a successful (albeit not perfect) model for development-- or at least a model of development which works for them. It may be counterintuitive to your experience in your field but results don't lie and they have results in Spades.

 

     If they have one failing in the philosophy of release dates it is that they get excited thinking about their fans playing the new update and then when they start interacting with them on the forum or during a stream they say something that they hope they can do because they know how excited and happy that would make everyone but it isn't necessarily reflective of their internal timeline window. Could Rick have come down hard on the entire team and said, "I know that we have more time that we can spend on this update but I said October 31st so lets crunch and get something out by that date no matter what."? Yes, he could have done so but he didn't. He said that we are still well within our acceptable release window so lets get it done right and not worry about an informal estimate I said during the stream.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

i think A20 is too big

 

It is exactly the size it is meant to be. TFP has tried in the past doing smaller updates and it didn't work for them. What they have been doing works great for them and is obviously sustainable financially. No method is perfect and people will be critical of these large updates. But it isn't going to change. Only threat of bankruptcy would force a change and like I said...we are at the other end of the spectrum on that account.

 

So thanks everyone for the professional and lay advice but just stick to playing the game and giving feedback about gameplay and leave the business decisions to the guys that are observably doing a fantastic job at it. If it helps ease your minds, Joel and Rick were successful millionaire businessmen before they ever started TFP and they have brought their experience running a successful business to bear and we can see the fruits of their practices. I get that you might want a smaller update and more often, and someone else is happy to restart every month for monthly updates, and someone else wants TFP to hit an estimated release date on time. Thanks for your input. TFP is constantly looking at ways to improve what they do in a way that works for them so that they can continue to deliver content as awesome as 7 Days to Die for years and years to come.

[SnowDog1942]

4 hours ago, Roland said:

 

There are no official release dates. Just estimates to give people a ballpark.

An alpha is never late, Nor is it early.   It arrives precisely when it means to.

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

i think A20 is too big.

I got something too big.

 

 

in my pants.

[Gazz]

4 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

The consumer is the boss.

 

The customer is king but this is not a monarchy. 😃

[nielm269]

3 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Because they felt it needed more work. There are many examples in the industry of studios who release incomplete updates simply because they were directed to release on the date that was given ready or not. In this case there was no official date given-- only an estimate and when that date came they decided to keep working on it internally rather than release it to experimental as it was.

I really wasn't asking just wanted to do the impatient kid in the car thing, seems to happen every upcoming Alpha release. Honestly I don't why so many complaints, it's had updates for 8 years now and it always seems fresh with every update really giving a replay factor. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by nielm269
I had a itch. (see edit history)

[beerfly]

6 hours ago, Roland said:

TFP is not an employee. They are also committed to quality over meeting target estimates. 

As they proved so far as you explained. 

 

For these, who haven`t seen how it started and how it is going, here: 

Spoiler

 

 

Hell yeah !!

 

*shooting at the ceiling with revolver*

 

P.S. Thank you @skippy0330

[Blake_]

2 hours ago, faatal said:

I tried this with spotlight and shotgun turret and saw no issue.

Because you need this. You should be able to reproduce it now 100%. Edit: Notice that you can reproduce this with every object with a camera preview, unknown if it's only the three mentioned in my report.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Blake_ (see edit history)

[Roland]

2 hours ago, Vapid Actions said:

Sometimes it's small things like on the first page here, changing the date of the expected release, deleting the old one as if it there never was an older timelines, sometimes it's more serious like the removal of the first video explaining the game's outline from kickstarter since the scope keeps changing.

 

You are reading way too much into these actions. The replacing of the old date with the new date is completely on me and me alone and in no way meant to be some devious method of re-writing history or pretending the old estimate never existed...lol. I'm happy to take your feedback on that account and in the future will use strikeouts instead of deletion on outdated timelines so that the historical documentation can be preserved for those who care to know all the dates we missed. I also am the main one who updates and maintains the first post of the dev diary, adding whenever a developer reveals something so that a summary is available. Again, there was no intention on my part to try and hide or rewrite the historical evidence of changes made or to try and pretend that what we have now is exactly what was always planned to be. 

 

As for the removal of the first video-- I assume you mean from steam. It was simply because the gameplay footage no longer represented the game people were buying. That video was there forever and we received a ton of feedback over the years to please replace it with a more relevent video. We did that and then also added the live action trailer for the game as well. Lately, the requests for a new updated video have been coming in again.

 

As for that first video explaining the game's outline from kickstarter it is still available and hasn't been suppressed: https://v.kickstarter.com/1638406456_482cd0aabaa6fff949c191ec621142b7e293d126/projects/582117/video-267274-h264_high.mp4

 

[SrslyGTFO]

3 hours ago, faatal said:

I tried this with spotlight and shotgun turret and saw no issue.

I've seen this as well. When adjusting the camera, sometimes your POV doesn't return to normal, but you now have the camera's POV for targeting. In the example shown by Blake, if you can see yourself in the camera view, sometimes when you leave the camera view, you can actually target yourself. This become apparent if you turn on the health bars via a Mod. In the screen where the (E) to pick up the frame should be, you'll see your health in the top. It's as if the camera targeting POV is hidden, but overlaid on your POV. I play Darkness Falls a lot, and run into this bug, it's more obvious what's happening. Relogging fixes it.

[Scythe-Messiah]

31 minutes ago, Roland said:

It is exactly the size it is meant to be. TFP has tried in the past doing smaller updates and it didn't work for them.

 

The backend work TFP has done on major systems are solid examples that this update is just the size is needs to be: The work done on blocks, building menu, distant imposters, and RWG is a framework that will impact every update that comes after it. This kind of system engineering and coordination between teams has been great to see. This is a good direction to see and I hope this methodology is applied when overhauling other legacy systems.

 

2 hours ago, Roland said:

No method is perfect and people will be critical of these large updates.

 

Incremental creative process is about maintaining a currency of momentum and setting a course knowing it can be adjusted based on actual needs. The act of creating isn't always logical, binary, or linear -- art is never  truly 'perfect' or finished, it just gets released. Creation can sometimes be messy and feel unproductive. Failure is not just a key part of refining process or technique; sometimes in the flash of a single errant line soon to be erased you can see the clarity of vision that will dictate all future strokes. Taking a step back holds meaning when you know it lets you take another several steps forward. It's even more meaningful when you know others can take the path you've blazed or know to avoid.

 

It's not the size of the updates that gets people agitated, its the length time between them. TFP may not be winning any sprints, but they're still in the marathon. 

[MechanicalLens]

1 hour ago, Blake_ said:

Because you need this. You should be able to reproduce it now 100%. Edit: Notice that you can reproduce this with every object with a camera preview, unknown if it's only the three mentioned in my report.

 

 

 

Thank you. I forgot to mention that they need to be wired up. My bad.

@Blake_ Did you experience this issue by simply interacting with the electrical devices instead of having to resort to using the camera? During my tests simply entering the interface of the shotgun turret, SMG turret, spotlight, motion sensor, elec timer relay, or dart trap and then backing out caused interference with placing/picking up frames at most angles. (Note: I relogged after each consecutive test.)

[EffiJeffy]

@Roland Did you guys have a team meeting for A20 yet? Or is it going to be today? Last time it was announced on monday if A20 will come the following week or not.

Edited November 30, 2021 by EffiJeffy
Edit (see edit history)

[Zombiepoptard]

13 hours ago, Roland said:

If they would put out updates every 3 sec. then I would 100% support them using child labor.

 

Child labor confirmed in A20.

[Aldranon]

 

Computer games have always pushed the limits of software and hardware.

 

I would go so far as to say that computer games have played a large part in computer hardware development.

There isn't a perfect gaming computer software for humans yet and maybe never will be, because you have to take into account the human mind's limitations.  Perhaps some advanced quantum computer will make up its own language and make great games fast.

But not yet...

[Roland]

1 hour ago, EffiJeffy said:

@Roland Did you guys have a team meeting for A20 yet? Or is it going to be today? Last time it was announced on monday if A20 will come the following week or not.

Things seem promising for either this weekend or next but until an official announcement is made by The Fun Pimp it is just hopes and crossed fingers. 

[beHypE]

I'm in software development myself and quite honestly Vapid Actions you should just take a breather and realise the environment TFP's employees work in is the one you wish you were employed in. The worst for everyone is when deadlines are arbitrarily set by some executive who's out of touch with what is going down behind the curtain. Pretty sure TFP's employees are just fine with the "it would be nice if it was released by Halloween but don't stress it" mindset.

I wish I had the financial and hierarchical freedom to just finetune every product I work on until I'm happy with the result. You and I both know release dates are either set because there's a tight budget (contract with a client, for example) or because there's pressure coming down for whatever regulatory/monetary reason. They don't seem to have either and that is pretty nice in my book. 

Also the backlash from a pedantic minority trying to teach them the ropes is probably easier to deal with than a community outlash if the released product is totally unplayable.

 

That being said, release the kraken!

 

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by beHypE (see edit history)

[Matt115]

8 hours ago, Roland said:

 

It is exactly the size it is meant to be. TFP has tried in the past doing smaller updates and it didn't work for them. What they have been doing works great for them and is obviously sustainable financially. No method is perfect and people will be critical of these large updates. But it isn't going to change. Only threat of bankruptcy would force a change and like I said...we are at the other end of the spectrum on that account.

 

So thanks everyone for the professional and lay advice but just stick to playing the game and giving feedback about gameplay and leave the business decisions to the guys that are observably doing a fantastic job at it. If it helps ease your minds, Joel and Rick were successful millionaire businessmen before they ever started TFP and they have brought their experience running a successful business to bear and we can see the fruits of their practices. I get that you might want a smaller update and more often, and someone else is happy to restart every month for monthly updates, and someone else wants TFP to hit an estimated release date on time. Thanks for your input. TFP is constantly looking at ways to improve what they do in a way that works for them so that they can continue to deliver content as awesome as 7 Days to Die for years and years to come.

Well i think people are tired Roland. I mean about everything in this year - cyberpunk crap, cod crap, bf crap ( well at least they manage to fix it and it is better a lot but first impression is  important) so they want something positive. Well i know TFP doesn't have influence on this situation but i think  you can agree it is very bad year for game industry and players.  Honestly giving feedback about  gameplay can't do a lot now. Well it is just too late too make big changes right? Well they change setting - it was survival horror now we have post apo in mad max style. Can we influence about this? No. What left to do for us? Just wait for gold

7 hours ago, SnowDog1942 said:

 

I got something too big.

 

 

in my pants.

i know, things from europe or from USA are so big for people from Korea and Japan. Well for dogs everything is bigger that from human point of view ^^

11 minutes ago, beHypE said:

I'm in software development myself and quite honestly Vapid Actions you should just take a breather and realise the environment TFP's employees work in is the one you wish you were employed in. The worst for everyone is when deadlines are arbitrarily set by some executive who's out of touch with what is going down behind the curtain. Pretty sure TFP's employees are just fine with the "it would be nice if it was released by Halloween but don't stress it" mindset.

I wish I had the financial and hierarchical freedom to just finetune every product I work on until I'm happy with the result. You and I both know release dates are either set because there's a tight budget (contract with a client, for example) or because there's pressure coming down for whatever regulatory/monetary reason. They don't seem to have either and that is pretty nice in my book. 

Also the backlash from a pedantic minority trying to teach them the ropes is probably easier to deal with than a community outlash if the released product is totally unplayable.

 

That being said, release the kraken!

 

 

Well - Valve have something similiar- we know about 20+ projects throw to bin. Valve is strange company- marketing side is just typical but game developing part of company is like mental asylum- everyone do what they want XD ( well i think they hire eccentrice only 😆)    so they only makes -  very good games and mistake games 

[Doomofman]

4 hours ago, EffiJeffy said:

@Roland Did you guys have a team meeting for A20 yet? Or is it going to be today? Last time it was announced on monday if A20 will come the following week or not.

 

Was it? From what I can see on the forums the Streamer Weekend wasn't announced until the Thursday