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Alpha 20 Dev Diary


madmole

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1 hour ago, faatal said:

There is no hard number for what must be fixed for experimental. We prioritize them by Highest, High, Medium, Low. Highest and High would be ones we want fixed, but as many Mediums as we can.

 So MF means

 

highest priority MF = must fix

high priority MF = mainly fix

medium priority MF = maybe fix

low priority MF = meh... fix (...or not who cares)

🤔

...seems legit to me 👍

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Just now, meilodasreh said:

 So MF means

 

highest priority MF = must fix

high priority MF = mainly fix

medium priority MF = maybe fix

low priority MF = meh... fix (...or not who cares)

🤔

...seems legit to me 👍

The distinction was before a19 stable (MF) and a19 experimental (HH/H).

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5 hours ago, faatal said:

There is no hard number for what must be fixed for experimental. We prioritize them by Highest, High, Medium, Low. Highest and High would be ones we want fixed, but as many Mediums as we can.

 

Highest+High is currently 32.

 

Wow. Considering that it was over 100 about a day ago, that's pretty quick work. (Hopefully not just from you, since every human needs sleep.)

 

Now, just waiting for QA to find more bugs so that it can jump to over 200 again. :)

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I can't believe folks are 'meh' on the stun baton. It's by far my go-to melee weapon. AFAIK, it's the only melee weapon that you can use to kill a bear and take zero damage. The stun effect is awesome. I know that the damage is weak but the stun factor more than makes up for it. I'm really interested in trying the T0 baton and how it compares.

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3 hours ago, khzmusik said:

 

Wow. Considering that it was over 100 about a day ago, that's pretty quick work. (Hopefully not just from you, since every human needs sleep.)

 

Now, just waiting for QA to find more bugs so that it can jump to over 200 again. :)

Wrong interpretation. The total is currently 104. The 32 number was of Highest plus High bugs in reference to which ones we really need to fix for experimental, which is different from what you would want fixed for stable.

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6 minutes ago, faatal said:

Wrong interpretation. The total is currently 104. The 32 number was of Highest plus High bugs in reference to which ones we really need to fix for experimental, which is different from what you would want fixed for stable.

 

As a professional programmer, that was not the wrong interpretation. :) There have been numerous times where our team was getting ready for a release, only for QA to find bugs that we caused when we fixed other bugs, and those new bugs were an order of magnitude more than the bugs we fixed. Really made CAB meetings exciting.

 

As far as the literal number goes, I was assuming MF bugs were the same as "Highest" plus "High" bugs, and the rest were "nice to have, but don't hold up a release" bugs.

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@hiemfire I feel it incumbant to inform you as your main foil in this issue that today a ticket was created to look at making the attack volumes run a stealth check first and only if that stealth check fails will they attack. Seems "Auto Attack" is getting fixed.

 

Congratulations on a year's worth of lively debate ending in your favor. You have my capitulation. 🏳️

 

As long as there is still a chance for a failed roll and therefore some variation to stealth play, I'm fine with it. I just hope it isn't essentially a nonexistent chance.

 

Maybe it could be like the chance for vomiting used to be.... ;)

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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17 hours ago, dcsobral said:

You realize Miner 69r does not change the amount of damage you inflict to zombies, don't you?

 

Sorry, it's strength itself that does

 

image.png.422d468127d86d94dd2e69f655091280.png

 

 

On 11/2/2021 at 1:28 AM, Mechanimal said:

Do you not use a bow?

 

Not when I'm doing an int build no. Bows are . . . . okay, kind of. They are pretty outclassed by hunting rifles which will one hit headshot kill with sneak attacks without needing perks, and with better range. Arrows are easier to craft, but you get bullets so commonly in A19 that I almost always have 500+ 7.62mm rounds before I've even found a gun

 

You can obviously use off attribute weapons, but my point was more talking about focused builds like you typically have when playing in coop, where each person specializes in a specific weapon and play style so they don't compete for resources / because it's more fun. Int doesn't have the weapon variety to even *do* a full int focused build for the first few weeks, and even later on it just doesn't work well for it, so you end up just relying on shotguns typically, since most int builds will probably have strength for Miner 69 and Motherlode as those are basically required for the int play style to even work

 

18 hours ago, Scyris said:

I feel the fact weapons are locked to stats was a stupid move period

 

Yeah, I don't like the change either honestly. Mainly because the attribute points are wasted if you are using an off attribute weapon. Like if you really want Parkour but don't even use bows or pistols, every point you sink into Agility doesn't do anything and is just filler. I'd much rather attributes act like, y'know, attributes. Increase strength to get more inventory slots / melee damage, increase agility to increase jump height / run speed, increase endurance to increase stamina regen etc

 

17 hours ago, Roland said:

It is different than the other trees. Thus, it gives a completely different gameplay experience.

 

The "asymmetrical play-style" can be kept while also just making the perk line better designed towards that goal. You can still have a defense focused play style that plays different from the others, that's fine and cool. The part that isn't is that the perk line doesn't even work for the first few weeks. That doesn't benefit anyone and just makes the playstyle *less* unique in that you have to just use the same off attribute shotguns and bows like every other build.

 

15 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

Electrocutioner does not require Int 3 or 5 to unlock the first level, you can unlock it right away in the game

 

I wasn't talking about the stun baton perk, I was talking about the robotic perk line. You can buy both  the melee / ranged perk starting level 1 in every other tree, but not in the Int tree

 

15 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

 

I begin to wonder if you actually have seriously played an Int build rather than just looking at the perks and saying, Nah it's too weak.

 

I have like 500+ hours alone on int builds lol, the only build I've never done is a brawler build based on knuckles, and a full machete only focused build because machete is bad in every test I've tried it with.  Nearly every build I do ends up just being strength / int because they fit my playstyle.

 

Your video is likely on a lower difficulty than mine, and you seem to have exp turned up. You used the stun baton against a couple of basic zombies and still had to kite and struggle, spawn those same zombies and try the same test with a fully perked level 6 steel club, you'll 1-2 shot them and be done in a fraction of the time without needing to kite.  The baton wasn't really doing anything for you there that a steel axe wouldn't have done, probably done easier as well. Steel axe did pretty well in my tests of all the weapons actually

Edited by Khalagar (see edit history)
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4 hours ago, khzmusik said:

 

As a professional programmer, that was not the wrong interpretation. :) There have been numerous times where our team was getting ready for a release, only for QA to find bugs that we caused when we fixed other bugs, and those new bugs were an order of magnitude more than the bugs we fixed. Really made CAB meetings exciting.

 

As far as the literal number goes, I was assuming MF bugs were the same as "Highest" plus "High" bugs, and the rest were "nice to have, but don't hold up a release" bugs.

Pulling rank, are we?

Yeah. That's not an outrageous assumption. Those bugs might very well be pregnant. Highest priority ones usually are. You forgot to pun in the faatal factor though. It's a buff that speeds up development by 50% on weekends.

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1 hour ago, Khalagar said:

Not when I'm doing an int build no. Bows are . . . . okay, kind of. They are pretty outclassed by hunting rifles which will one hit headshot kill with sneak attacks without needing perks, and with better range. Arrows are easier to craft, but you get bullets so commonly in A19 that I almost always have 500+ 7.62mm rounds before I've even found a gun..


Well of course a hunting rifle is gonna hurt more than a bow, and I too use them, but they definitely violate the concept of stealth. I'm not gonna wake up half the sleepers in a POI just to get one headshot. And again I try to save my ammo anyway. I would use a hunting rifle in place of an AK... at least until I got an AK;)

I would maybe use a gun with a silencer, but I swear the silencer doesn't work, or barely does, cause every time I try it on a stealth run it ends up waking sleepers anyhow.. Not even sure why it's in the game if it doesn't function properly. Haven't tried one in awhile though, may again in A20 just to see if it still fails at actually being silent.

I've thought more about how weapons and their upgrades are locked within certain attributes, got to say I agree, I wish none of them were. There are weapons I never bother with because of that, shame really. Makes me wonder why the F they can't compromise and re-introduce LBD back in alongside the perk system, at least for weapons. There is a mod that does that and it works really well. But I know the LBD conversation in general is "off-limits" these days so nevermind. Maybe they could at least give each weapon it's own place to perk into them outside of the attributes, I dunno, something, but yeah, locking different weapons behind specific attributes still feels janky and off, inappropriate, I do agree with that. Even though I use bows a ton I rarely if ever actually perk far into them, if at all, because of the attribute they are locked behind, it sucks but I just ignore it and use them anyway.

I was excited to see LBD again in Valheim, but holy @%$# is the death penalty brutal in that game, especially once you try to level up anything beyond 50. Things start to take forever to level up as it gets higher, but then a single death can remove 2 to 3 levels of a perk, at once. I have a character that I've played since it's release and he's basically stuck, one step forward 2-3 steps back, I @%$#ing hate it and can't take the game seriously anymore because of it. Can spend hours, days, leveling up skills just to lose it all in a flash, often for no good reason. Ruined that game for me, well, ruined caring about my character. Still love the game, but I try not to even look at my skill levels anymore because it ticks me off so much. It has wasted literal days of my time, point being these systems need to be well balanced and not over penalize players or it can ruin the entire experience rather easily.

Edited by Mechanimal
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35 minutes ago, Mechanimal said:

I would maybe use a gun with a silencer, but I swear the silencer doesn't work, or barely does, cause every time I try it on a stealth run it ends up waking sleepers anyhow.. Not even sure why it's in the game if it doesn't function properly.

 

Silencer does not work, or rather, not in any way that's useful. From my tests, silencer only works on roaming hordes or zombies that are already awake. Stealth as a whole basically doesn't work, which is why hunting rifle is better than the bow IMO.

 

You won't wake any sleepers if you stand outside their aggro radius with a hunting rifle and just crouch and head shot them. Sleepers only wake when you enter their aggro zone, there's basically a big invisible border denoting where the "sleeper room" starts. Up to that zone, you can literally just take a fire axe to the wall and open a window to shoot through, crouch, and stand there head shotting every single sleeper in the room from outside the room, and the zombies won't wake up. Even when there are two standing side by side, they won't wake up when you kill the one next to them

 

They seem to only wake up if you miss a shot and hit a wall or the floor etc, which probably registers you as being in the room, or if you don't get a one hit kill they will sometimes wake up when the angry sleeper does.

 

Stealth as a whole is in as bad of / worse shape than the Int perk line is imo, as stealth is completely pointless on the most important night of the week, and it doesn't matter against  sleepers either. Stealth really only matters against roaming hordes and already awake zombies, which are rarely ever a threat

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42 minutes ago, Mechanimal said:


Well of course a hunting rifle is gonna hurt more than a bow, and I too use them, but they definitely violate the concept of stealth. I'm not gonna wake up half the sleepers in a POI just to get one headshot. And again I try to save my ammo anyway. I would use a hunting rifle in place of an AK... at least until I got an AK;)

I would maybe use a gun with a silencer, but I swear the silencer doesn't work, or barely does, cause every time I try it on a stealth run it ends up waking sleepers anyhow.. Not even sure why it's in the game if it doesn't function properly. Haven't tried one in awhile though, may again in A20 just to see if it still fails at actually being silent.

I've thought more about how weapons and their upgrades are locked within certain attributes, got to say I agree, I wish none of them were. There are weapons I never bother with because of that, shame really. Makes me wonder why the F they can't compromise and re-introduce LBD back in alongside the perk system, at least for weapons. There is a mod that does that and it works really well. But I know the LBD conversation in general is "off-limits" these days so nevermind. Maybe they could at least give each weapon it's own place to perk into them outside of the attributes, I dunno, something, but yeah, locking different weapons behind specific attributes still feels janky and off, inappropriate, I do agree with that. Even though I use bows a ton I rarely if ever actually perk far into them, if at all, because of the attribute they are locked behind, it sucks but I just ignore it and use them anyway.

 I love bows and crossbows because I love use stealth. Silencer should not be so effective as bow because they really are not so quiet as you can see (hear) in movies. But I don't know how big effect they have in the game I never actually use them.

I totally agree lock weapons behind certain skill tree. Overal skill tree in 7 days is worst part of the game for me actually. It is just so boring design. A lot of skills I would like to use like healing skill are lock behind investing in fortitude. But I rarely use shotguns and knucles so it feels like wasting points. If you at least get something usefull from investing in these perks like it was in A17, now you just get bonus to the headshot damage for certain weapon you will not use. And even skills for weapons you actually use are mostly just 10% damage boost, thats just boring. Make every poin invest in these skills interesting. Lock weapon crafting of the better weapon type behind certain level of the skill. Get rid of Run and gun. Let us upgrade reloading speed of the weapons with the certain weapon skill. Add some interesting new ability with weapon for every level etc. I miss LBD so much, as you said at least for the weapons. We know LBD never returne but at least they should rework current skill three completly. Please Fun Pimps, make every level up interesting don't force us to invest points into poitles atributes just for one or two skills. Hire someone who have a lot of experiece with RPG genre when you go that direction anyway.

And with Valheim... I agree for 100% as well. I hate that from the start. LBD in the game is great but death penalty when you have skills 50+ is absurd you spent several hours of the playing get one level in the skill and than one mistake and several days of playing are flush down the toilet. Terrible design as well.

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33 minutes ago, Khalagar said:

 

Silencer does not work, or rather, not in any way that's useful. From my tests, silencer only works on roaming hordes or zombies that are already awake. Stealth as a whole basically doesn't work, which is why hunting rifle is better than the bow IMO.

 

You won't wake any sleepers if you stand outside their aggro radius with a hunting rifle and just crouch and head shot them. Sleepers only wake when you enter their aggro zone, there's basically a big invisible border denoting where the "sleeper room" starts. Up to that zone, you can literally just take a fire axe to the wall and open a window to shoot through, crouch, and stand there head shotting every single sleeper in the room from outside the room, and the zombies won't wake up. Even when there are two standing side by side, they won't wake up when you kill the one next to them

 

They seem to only wake up if you miss a shot and hit a wall or the floor etc, which probably registers you as being in the room, or if you don't get a one hit kill they will sometimes wake up when the angry sleeper does.

 

Stealth as a whole is in as bad of / worse shape than the Int perk line is imo, as stealth is completely pointless on the most important night of the week, and it doesn't matter against  sleepers either. Stealth really only matters against roaming hordes and already awake zombies, which are rarely ever a threat

Oh, so it really is that bad, oof. What is the point of the silencer then, seriously, why bother.

I know they aren't totally silent irl, but making them silent enough to not wake sleepers would make sense, otherwise, again, what is the point.

As for wandering hordes, I handle those differently, stealth is the last thing I'm worried about. Usually solved via molotov & AK, or if I am in the mood I'll kite them all around and take'm out one by one with a bat. Nades are fun if I have'm.

When I "level up" stealth I only really get the damage increase perk, don't bother with the increased silence stuff as it does not seem to make a difference. I can successfully stealth a POI as things are, with a bow & stone arrows. Headshots are key, until you level up that damage anyway, then it gets easier and even body shots can be a one shot kill.

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Yeah stealth is weird often, zombies really wake up only if you are in thir aggro radius but once you enter POI when you shoot one with rifle, you are always in the aggro radius of several zombies and you wake up them. Stealth skill work fine for me, if you combine it only with cloth armor, and bow you can stay almost next to them + bow has 200% steath bonus combine with assassin skill you can kill almost every zombie with just one arrow to the head even on higher difficuilties like warrior or survivalist. 

Weird is when you stand outside of POI, there is some parking with some sleepers you can just shot them from one meter with shotgun and you don't wake up anything because you are out that aggro radius... But what break the stealth most for me are skripts. Often in the POI are rooms with skripts, once you enter them every zombie wake up no matter how good is your stealth. I hate that.

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7 hours ago, Khalagar said:

 

Sorry, it's strength itself that does

 

image.png.422d468127d86d94dd2e69f655091280.png

 

 

 

Not when I'm doing an int build no. Bows are . . . . okay, kind of. They are pretty outclassed by hunting rifles which will one hit headshot kill with sneak attacks without needing perks, and with better range. Arrows are easier to craft, but you get bullets so commonly in A19 that I almost always have 500+ 7.62mm rounds before I've even found a gun

 

You can obviously use off attribute weapons, but my point was more talking about focused builds like you typically have when playing in coop, where each person specializes in a specific weapon and play style so they don't compete for resources / because it's more fun. Int doesn't have the weapon variety to even *do* a full int focused build for the first few weeks, and even later on it just doesn't work well for it, so you end up just relying on shotguns typically, since most int builds will probably have strength for Miner 69 and Motherlode as those are basically required for the int play style to even work

 

 

Yeah, I don't like the change either honestly. Mainly because the attribute points are wasted if you are using an off attribute weapon. Like if you really want Parkour but don't even use bows or pistols, every point you sink into Agility doesn't do anything and is just filler. I'd much rather attributes act like, y'know, attributes. Increase strength to get more inventory slots / melee damage, increase agility to increase jump height / run speed, increase endurance to increase stamina regen etc

 

 

The "asymmetrical play-style" can be kept while also just making the perk line better designed towards that goal. You can still have a defense focused play style that plays different from the others, that's fine and cool. The part that isn't is that the perk line doesn't even work for the first few weeks. That doesn't benefit anyone and just makes the playstyle *less* unique in that you have to just use the same off attribute shotguns and bows like every other build.

 

 

I wasn't talking about the stun baton perk, I was talking about the robotic perk line. You can buy both  the melee / ranged perk starting level 1 in every other tree, but not in the Int tree

 

 

I have like 500+ hours alone on int builds lol, the only build I've never done is a brawler build based on knuckles, and a full machete only focused build because machete is bad in every test I've tried it with.  Nearly every build I do ends up just being strength / int because they fit my playstyle.

 

Your video is likely on a lower difficulty than mine, and you seem to have exp turned up. You used the stun baton against a couple of basic zombies and still had to kite and struggle, spawn those same zombies and try the same test with a fully perked level 6 steel club, you'll 1-2 shot them and be done in a fraction of the time without needing to kite.  The baton wasn't really doing anything for you there that a steel axe wouldn't have done, probably done easier as well. Steel axe did pretty well in my tests of all the weapons actually

 

 

There are two things deliberately done by the game designers AFAIK:

1) strength as the entry level beginners attribute is easiest to play, with the best weapon selection in the game and best resource perks as well.

2) Int is supposed to be weaker at fighting than other classes.

 

If we just look at weapons it is roughly Str > For > Agi, Per > Int  .

 

What does that mean:

1) It is no surprise you can play a str build in a higher difficulty and have difficulties with all other attributes (maybe except for Fortitude because you get ammo too easy so its disadvantage of high ammo costs and subpar melee never really surfaces early enough to be relevant)

2) ALL attributes look bad when compared to Str. The solution, if desired, would not be to make INT weapons better but to make Str weaker

3) If you always compare Int to Str weapons only but never allow Int to use the strategy where it works best by using whatever off attribute weapon you have ammo for in combination with turrets and baton, then that comparison is stacked against it three times.

 

As single player you have tons of ammo for other guns, if you use them even without perking into them you have an easy time and don't need to perk into miner at all

As co-op multiplayer you could easily go into pois with your co-op player and let them use the ammo while you can easily stun zombies and have the turrets stay as safety a little behind where they don't use much ammo. Also you then usually have a miner in the group who can supplement your scrap ammo diet.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Firingo said:

But what break the stealth most for me are skripts. Often in the POI are rooms with skripts, once you enter them every zombie wake up no matter how good is your stealth. I hate that.

 

I wonder if the script isn't doing a stealth check?  (Or maybe it is but isn't working?). I would make it so that a room wouldn't wake up if stealth was above the rooms threshold.  The stealth required would be based on zombie level.  Rooms with higher level Zs would require higher stealth to not wake up.

 

BUT I would also make it so that if the player messes up, there is a good chance the whole POI could wake up.  Sneaking deep into a large POI only to have everything wake up toward the end could make for some heart pounding moments, especially for those underground ones with only one way out!

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20 hours ago, Roland said:

 He just posted that there is a minimum of 32. But that number will rise and fall over the next few weeks. Better to trust an emoji countdown than a MF countdown...

You don't realize how many members you put into a spiraling deep depression with that remark

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11 minutes ago, DanLW said:

 

I wonder if the script isn't doing a stealth check?  (Or maybe it is but isn't working?). I would make it so that a room wouldn't wake up if stealth was above the rooms threshold.  The stealth required would be based on zombie level.  Rooms with higher level Zs would require higher stealth to not wake up.

 

BUT I would also make it so that if the player messes up, there is a good chance the whole POI could wake up.  Sneaking deep into a large POI only to have everything wake up toward the end could make for some heart pounding moments, especially for those underground ones with only one way out!

 

Roland talked about this just 9 hours ago

 

 

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20 hours ago, Roland said:

 He just posted that there is a minimum of 32. But that number will rise and fall over the next few weeks. Better to trust an emoji countdown than a MF countdown...

You don't realize how many members you put into a spiraling deep depression with that remark

 

 

for some reason this posted twice. Maybe someone higher up knows the importance of this statement :)

Edited by Gamida (see edit history)
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9 hours ago, Roland said:

@hiemfire I feel it incumbant to inform you as your main foil in this issue that today a ticket was created to look at making the attack volumes run a stealth check first and only if that stealth check fails will they attack. Seems "Auto Attack" is getting fixed.

 

Congratulations on a year's worth of lively debate ending in your favor. You have my capitulation. 🏳️

 

As long as there is still a chance for a failed roll and therefore some variation to stealth play, I'm fine with it. I just hope it isn't essentially a nonexistent chance.

 

Maybe it could be like the chance for vomiting used to be.... ;)

 

Yes there is a ticket, but how stealth will be improved in those situations is still up in the air.  Programming will have to take a look and see what can be done first...

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9 hours ago, Roland said:

@hiemfire I feel it incumbant to inform you as your main foil in this issue that today a ticket was created to look at making the attack volumes run a stealth check first and only if that stealth check fails will they attack. Seems "Auto Attack" is getting fixed.

Nice. Looking forwards to testing it out if/when it gets implemented. Hopefully my pc will be fixed so I can play again by then.

9 hours ago, Roland said:

Maybe it could be like the chance for vomiting used to be.... ;)

A coinflip? Please not that bad above 2 points into the perk.

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