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About Double clearing POIs and how to fix it


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19 hours ago, th3s0n1c said:

my problem is not really the fact that POI gets reset, it's that the SAME person will loot it twice because of that. If another player got there and looted it before you and you just reset the POI due to a quest, its fine.. because it's a valid design goal to keep the server from drying out.

Ah, I see. At least you are consistent, I can respect that. I play co-op and so it's not an issue for us. I don't think it's designed this way to "keep the server from drying out", it's simply that a) the entire freaking world is destructible and b) the POI must be intact for the quest completion to be guaranteed possible. It's the live sandbox voxel world version of an instanced quest (i.e. magic doorway which transports you to a pristine quest environment). If a server is drying out the server admins ought to be on top of that with regular chunk resets.

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16 hours ago, Roland said:

Here’s a question for those who see double dipping as an exploit:

 

Immersion aside, what if the POI changed to a different POI when it reset? Would you still consider it an exploit to clear it and then reset it and then have an entirely different layout to clear the second time?  

I wouldn't if the reset is not in front of my face and the content is good enough. Your example could be interesting if the 1st quest in that POI was a bombing quest that totally wrecks the POI, and the second time just a rubble pile POI or improvised npc camp POI that simulates ruins from the first explosion.

 

Randomization and gamey resets are ok as long as they don't feel cheap, boring or an overtask and of course you should NEVER see them happening in front of your face, like they currently are. My OP stands. 

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I think everyone is on board with things not popping and disappearing right in front of our eyes. That is not even a debatable issue or at least I wouldn't mind hearing from someone anywhere who disagrees and actually prefers for such things to happen right in front of them just so I can say I've met one of THOSE people....

 

The question is exploit. Once I realized that you are actually doing the work to clear and explore both times I stopped thinking of it as an exploit. If two completely different layouts would definitely not be an exploit I really don't think that doing the same one twice is really an exploit. Otherwise you should avoid ever repeating any POI you have ever explored in the past. It is interesting that TFP spent time ensuring that duplicate POI's will never spawn within the same city and yet they allow it to happen through this mechanic. I suppose it was purely a visual objection.

 

My only real objection is that it is ugly having it happen right in front of you and using a gamey cartoon rally point instead of an in game character. They have spent a lot of effort trying their best to keep zombie spawning from happening right in front of your face and their efforts haven't been 100% successful but still-- they have tried. It would be nice if they at least try to clean up the reset so it doesn't happen in your face. Even if the rally point was a couple blocks away so intervening buildings and trees blocked the view. They could put a simple map marker on the correct destination once the rally marker was activated.

 

If a group can't coordinate themselves to being able to enter the quest boundaries at close to the same time from a two block distance of activation then they probably have no business continuing to pretend they're a team...

 

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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15 minutes ago, Roland said:

If a group can't coordinate themselves to being able to enter the quest boundaries at close to the same time from a two block distance of activation then they probably have no business continuing to pretend they're a team...

I'd be fine if the poi resets as soon as you accept the quest. However not everybody is playing coop and in only one group maybe. So it comes back to, that someone might loot the poi before you arrive there. PvP players will hate it...

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35 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

I'd be fine if the poi resets as soon as you accept the quest. However not everybody is playing coop and in only one group maybe. So it comes back to, that someone might loot the poi before you arrive there. PvP players will hate it...

For that matter someone could headshot you right after you activate the rally point and then go in and loot the POI before you. I'm talking maybe 30 meters away from that point. If someone can get in there and loot before you with a 30m distant activation point, they were likely going to do it anyway while you were standing in the yard.

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I actually don't mind Th3s0n1c's automatic start suggestion, but I get the issues that was explored after the suggestion. Curious... could it work with two bounding boxes? A large one to reset at the POI and a smaller one inside of the larger one closer to the entrance that triggers the quest start?

Additionally, this more an programming/engineering question related to Roland's issue with stuff resetting in plain view. Could instead of resetting the whole POI it just resets what's required for the quest? So like just the zombies for clears, or zombie spawns and the hidden satchel for clear/fetches? That way if a person has already looted the POI and end loot then they are just doing the quest for the quest rewards? Sort of separate POI loot rooms and quests from each other.

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5 hours ago, Roland said:

If a group can't coordinate themselves to being able to enter the quest boundaries at close to the same time from a two block distance of activation then they probably have no business continuing to pretend they're a team...

 

You just put a knife in the back of my co-op group 😁

 

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2 hours ago, DaChibii said:

I actually don't mind Th3s0n1c's automatic start suggestion, but I get the issues that was explored after the suggestion. Curious... could it work with two bounding boxes? A large one to reset at the POI and a smaller one inside of the larger one closer to the entrance that triggers the quest start?

Additionally, this more an programming/engineering question related to Roland's issue with stuff resetting in plain view. Could instead of resetting the whole POI it just resets what's required for the quest? So like just the zombies for clears, or zombie spawns and the hidden satchel for clear/fetches? That way if a person has already looted the POI and end loot then they are just doing the quest for the quest rewards? Sort of separate POI loot rooms and quests from each other.

Unfortunately no. This being a fully destructible world someone could raze the building to the ground. POI's need to be reset in their entirety due to nobody being able to predict what might be built inside of it or what might be destroyed. If the building was blown up and then only parts reset it wouldn't work. The whole thing within the entire boundary must be fully reset.

35 minutes ago, meganoth said:

You just put a knife in the back of my co-op group 😁

 

Maybe gamer group therapy could become an emerging field, especially with all the new familiarity of zoom meetings...

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It's not a perfect solution, but I think it would be better (for now), that a POI resets when accepting the mission.
The mission selection should check if anybody is near the area. If there is, then choose a different one for the list. Some sort of similar checking must occur already because otherwise bedrolls/claim blocks would be ignored.
There would still be a tiny chance that the mission is ruined by another player before you get there. I don't see this as a problem. I see it as an opportunity for interesting gameplay. 
 
I really don't see how this is any more complicated than the current system. I also don't see a real problem coming from this. If there is, please state.
The only thing is that it doesn't address the immersion-breaking POI resetting itself. This is where I think bandits can do some magic in the future.

 

Edited by AtomicUs5000 (see edit history)
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11 hours ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

It's not a perfect solution, but I think it would be better (for now), that a POI resets when accepting the mission.
The mission selection should check if anybody is near the area. If there is, then choose a different one for the list. Some sort of similar checking must occur already because otherwise bedrolls/claim blocks would be ignored.
There would still be a tiny chance that the mission is ruined by another player before you get there. I don't see this as a problem. I see it as an opportunity for interesting gameplay. 
 
I really don't see how this is any more complicated than the current system. I also don't see a real problem coming from this. If there is, please state.
The only thing is that it doesn't address the immersion-breaking POI resetting itself. This is where I think bandits can do some magic in the future.

 

Because the time between looking at the list and accepting the quest can be arbitrarily long there is the question when to do the proximity check: Optimally it should be done when accepting the quest and doing the reset but then it can happen that you want to accept the quest and the GUI won't let you. That would be confusing to the player, even with an error message.

 

If you do the check when the player accesses the quest list, there are small drawbacks:

1) In the meantime a player could have driven there, so the reset at accepting the quest can still be observed sometimes.

2) There is a small exploit possibility: It allows selecting quests by exiting the selection screen and a friend driving to the POIs offered so the selection has to change.

3) A dynamic list looks like a bug. There was a quest there, next time you look it vanished, next time it might be there again. Huh?

 

 

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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19 hours ago, JCrook1028 said:

But each trader sends quests to the identical POI VERY often. And yes I mean exactly what I said, VERY often.

Seriousy? Is this entire thread based on your erroneous assumption that the zombies don't respawn as well? When is the last time you actually used the mechanic you're arguing against anyway? It has ALWAYS respawned the zombies.

a18 several times .. respawned free loot  0 zombies  yeah "always respawned"

 

when you guys stop complaining  about minor immersion issue  creating huge problems by blindly reseting  poi thay might contain your stuff

 

ultimate solution ? 

1) go to   poi

2)go past quest trigger

3) turn 180°

4) trigger quest

 

5)  woahhhh nothing changed in front of your eyes .. you just magically saved hours of developers time trying to come up with some half working solution  to  remove cosmetic issue

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1 hour ago, alanea said:

a18 several times .. respawned free loot  0 zombies  yeah "always respawned"

...

As quite a few people have said now, sleeper zombies always respawned when a POI was reset and this was since sleepers were introduced.

 

If you saw an empty quest POI, it may have been a bug or a POI that randomly had no zombies. The number of zombies in a POI varies and I think I have occasionally seen empty POIs too, whether on a quest or just while looting it without a quest.

 

 

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Yet another variation - No resetting at all, we have to go and clear all pois in the whole map. On. blood moon we have a rage of zeds trying to get the poi's back. They attack poi's that have players in. If there would be no players at the poi it is considered captured - reset. So players will be forced to pick the closest poi's to the border line with zeds, create barricades block roads etc. this would bring new fun in defending of the towns etc. After horde night finishes - all poi's that had no players in em and had a single zed would be considered re-captured - so they will be re-set and appropriate quests would re-appear at trader. So again we will have much more quests in traders and they will start with single houses at lvl1 and finish with skyscrapers for lvl 5 in late cities. And that would also bring more sense to the game in terms of replayability and some ending if you like. After all poi's are captured with players they have to hold it for like 3 blood moons going in a row (every night is a blood moon) if they succeed they can terminate the game, or if they will they can carry on with blood moons every 3 days or until they all die)

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On 10/3/2020 at 1:30 PM, th3s0n1c said:

Then if every POI you loot is already looted because the trader always points you to the same ones, then you're not double clearing it anyways, are you? What is even your point anymore? That you cant be arsed to go and get another quest because one of them failed?

It still seems statistically innacurate for me. If you're still stuck doing the same POI's over and over... A) this is a game design that needs to be changed and B) you're not progressing in your quest system to other tiers. And this, again, is if we're not talking about Tiers 4 and 5 exclusively.

I never double clear in the first place. Which if you read my posts you would know. The above quote was simply responding to you saying that there were hundreds of POI's across the map. Which is a meaningless statement given the facts I responded with. the "hundreds" are not within the trader quest range. Never said every POI I loot is already looted either. Not sure what you're on about tbh.

4 hours ago, alanea said:

a18 several times .. respawned free loot  0 zombies  yeah "always respawned"

 

when you guys stop complaining  about minor immersion issue  creating huge problems by blindly reseting  poi thay might contain your stuff

1. You ran into a bug then.

2. Bedroll and lcb both block quests so not valid either.

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11 hours ago, meganoth said:

Because the time between looking at the list and accepting the quest can be arbitrarily long there is the question when to do the proximity check: Optimally it should be done when accepting the quest and doing the reset but then it can happen that you want to accept the quest and the GUI won't let you. That would be confusing to the player, even with an error message.

 

If you do the check when the player accesses the quest list, there are small drawbacks:

1) In the meantime a player could have driven there, so the reset at accepting the quest can still be observed sometimes.

2) There is a small exploit possibility: It allows selecting quests by exiting the selection screen and a friend driving to the POIs offered so the selection has to change.

3) A dynamic list looks like a bug. There was a quest there, next time you look it vanished, next time it might be there again. Huh?

 

 

 

Those three small drawbacks are very small and the chances of them happening are very little.

 

"1) In the meantime a player could have driven there, so the reset at accepting the quest can still be observed sometimes."
Having someone witness a POI reset 1% of the time is much better than 100% of the time. Like I said though, it's not perfect, just much better than the way it is now.
 
"2) There is a small exploit possibility: It allows selecting quests by exiting the selection screen and a friend driving to the POIs offered so the selection has to change."
The missions and their distances might be listed when looking at it, but their exact locations are unknown until you accept them. Maybe after playing a map for a long time, would you know that there is only one of a particular POI to attempt to do this, but in this case, perhaps #3 could step in.
Just want to say that if having a friend drive to a location on the list is an exploit, then the double dipping in its current form is also an exploit... just an easier one. So, even if this did not solve the problem fully, it still reduces it significantly. You always have at least one person wasting a whole lot of time who could be doing something more productive for the group.
 
"3) A dynamic list looks like a bug. There was a quest there, next time you look it vanished, next time it might be there again. Huh?"
In most games with missions that cycle, there is a timer in between mission list changes. This doesn't necessarily mean a mission you accepted a minute ago is no longer active, it just means that there is a new list of available missions. In fact, doesn't this already occur for the goods a trader offers? The concept of dynamic mission lists is far from new, and for some gamers, even expected. However, changing them to red, or graying them out, or marking them as temporarily unavailable is always a possibility if confusion truly is a problem.
 

 

Edited by AtomicUs5000 (see edit history)
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On 10/3/2020 at 9:13 PM, AtomicUs5000 said:

It's not a perfect solution, but I think it would be better (for now), that a POI resets when accepting the mission.
The mission selection should check if anybody is near the area. If there is, then choose a different one for the list. Some sort of similar checking must occur already because otherwise bedrolls/claim blocks would be ignored.
There would still be a tiny chance that the mission is ruined by another player before you get there. I don't see this as a problem. I see it as an opportunity for interesting gameplay.

What happens when you get two quests in the same POI?  If you get quests from multiple traders at once, you occasionally get quests in the exact same POI, so this solution wouldn't work in this case.  Obviously, you could have some sort of check to prevent this, but if this was simple to do, I'd have thought they'd have already done it.

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9 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

What happens when you get two quests in the same POI?  If you get quests from multiple traders at once, you occasionally get quests in the exact same POI, so this solution wouldn't work in this case.  Obviously, you could have some sort of check to prevent this, but if this was simple to do, I'd have thought they'd have already done it.

No problem. The check is simple. It's just that it's currently done on the marker and not on the trader quest. Now, coding the trader to not show the repeated location, that is a bit different, still not "complex" per se. Just as time consuming as everything quest-related. The multiplayer factor is always a pain to do coherently. And Prime doesn't usually prevent ALL the multiplayer bugs because he is not a god . And they are a pain to report. So there's that.

22 hours ago, meganoth said:

As quite a few people have said now, sleeper zombies always respawned when a POI was reset and this was since sleepers were introduced.

 

If you saw an empty quest POI, it may have been a bug or a POI that randomly had no zombies. The number of zombies in a POI varies and I think I have occasionally seen empty POIs too, whether on a quest or just while looting it without a quest.

 

 

That only happens to the small location POIs. Never to the TIER 1s /2s/  3s etc. Small non-tiered locations can have 0. There's a chance that someone walked by and awakened some or all of the Zds of a TIER 1, or 2, and then it appears empty to the new comer. Not a bug there. Emergent gameplay.

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11 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

What happens when you get two quests in the same POI?  If you get quests from multiple traders at once, you occasionally get quests in the exact same POI, so this solution wouldn't work in this case.  Obviously, you could have some sort of check to prevent this, but if this was simple to do, I'd have thought they'd have already done it.

I would think that's a separate issue/bug that should be worked out either way.

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Honestly, still thinking that it's a not issue and they are better using their time in other issues. Like removing vultures. That's important!

 

And stil think that instead the exclamation mark, having an NPC agent that tell you the issue with the POI, and showing a little 'cut-scene' with the POI being overrun by zombies previously, like a flashback, could make that more immesive. (Since everyone loves immersivitiness!) That way the POI doesn't rebuild itself right in front of you.

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On 10/1/2020 at 8:50 AM, RestInPieces said:

This is an easy fix imo, scrap this 90s mmo-style abomination, that is called "quests", as well!

You'll get no traction around this place with your common sense, they would much rather spend a lot of time and effort fixing what is otherwise a non-issue.

God-forbid we could just go and loot buildings like in the old days.

 

Actually that is the root of a lot of problems I see with the game these days; they are trying too hard to be MMOish.

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If the problem is the yellow floating "!" mark. That is a relatively easy to handle by just inserting there some kind of "quest start container" or box or pole which seems more fitting. Say, for example, bright colored "Beware of zombies" sign in front of POI to press "E" against to start the quest. 

Double clearing as such, as others have noted several times already in this thread already, is not a "problem" in my opinion, because you are "doing" the POI the same way, basically, like you could do any POI in the world. Be it then killing everything or nerd-poling straight for the roof. In fact, it is probably more efficient to just pick another quest considering how good the quest rewards currently are. 

In vanilla settings the POI's are supposed to be done over and over and over again. Because in vanilla settings there is a loot respawn in POI's turned on after a certain time interval. And - if someone is after a particularly harsh playthrough - one has always option to enforce no traders on the map and turn off the loot respawn and opt to not mine resources - for that true scavenger of the apocalypse feel. 

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I remember when they first added the quest system and I turned up to my first quest and put all my belongings in the car outside (plus my minibike) to make space to do the quest. Began the quest and it reset everything, even the car, making all my belongings disappear!!

 

That is certainly a good argument for stopping the resets. Imagine how many new players are caught out doing that...

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6 hours ago, dxbydy said:

I remember when they first added the quest system and I turned up to my first quest and put all my belongings in the car outside (plus my minibike) to make space to do the quest. Began the quest and it reset everything, even the car, making all my belongings disappear!!

 

That is certainly a good argument for stopping the resets. Imagine how many new players are caught out doing that...

But I bet you never did that again...

11 hours ago, Tehnomaag said:

If the problem is the yellow floating "!" mark. That is a relatively easy to handle by just inserting there some kind of "quest start container" or box or pole which seems more fitting. Say, for example, bright colored "Beware of zombies" sign in front of POI to press "E" against to start the quest. 

Double clearing as such, as others have noted several times already in this thread already, is not a "problem" in my opinion, because you are "doing" the POI the same way, basically, like you could do any POI in the world. Be it then killing everything or nerd-poling straight for the roof. In fact, it is probably more efficient to just pick another quest considering how good the quest rewards currently are. 

In vanilla settings the POI's are supposed to be done over and over and over again. Because in vanilla settings there is a loot respawn in POI's turned on after a certain time interval. And - if someone is after a particularly harsh playthrough - one has always option to enforce no traders on the map and turn off the loot respawn and opt to not mine resources - for that true scavenger of the apocalypse feel. 

Because a sign or box or container could be destroyed. Making them indestructible isn't a good solution either.  Interesting point about the vanilla loot respawn. In single player I turn it to 30 days or off to force myself to get out and about more. I have found myself double-looting the closer POIs because of that, although as others I am coming to the conclusion it still isn't worth the time/effort vs doing another quest.

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