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About Double clearing POIs and how to fix it


Blake_
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17 hours ago, th3s0n1c said:

When TFP came up with the "quest reset POI' mechanic, I believe they werent accounting for people doing a double run on it. Probably just thinking of renewing POIs already looted so the quests could take place there.

  Question for you: is that original thought that you claim TFP had - renewing an old, already-looted POI so it could host a quest - a valid design goal? That is, in a world where every building can be searched, looted, and destroyed, is it a valid design goal to be able to reset quest-related POIs?

 

If your answer is no, then you can forget the next part, because I misunderstand the basis of your argument. If your answer is yes, though...

 

17 hours ago, th3s0n1c said:

Just like with most things they "fix" in the game because they didnt think it would act the way players are now using it in an exploitive way

Why is resetting an already-looted POI an "exploit", if it was a valid design decision? Is it only the time aspect that gets you worked up? Loot it 3 game days ago? No problem. Loot it 3 game minutes ago? Exploit. Is that it?

 

 

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I think that it bigger cheese to jump straight to the loot room than double looting.  There are so many POIs in the game, what difference does it make to loot one POI twice. What are you saving yourself? 2 minutes of travel time?

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17 hours ago, th3s0n1c said:

So much so that the Devs are actually pondering about ways to prevent sneaky rushing looting (hence the key to unlock lootroom idea) and it might even fix the POI reset matter as a side effect.

Those two issues are not connected. Even after making loot rooms non cheeseable (by nerdpoling for example) they still will need to reset the POI prior to every quest. The POI has to be in virgin condition at the start of the quest. Period. End of Story.

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On 10/1/2020 at 4:33 PM, Vampirenostra said:

I've got a better question!

If I made a quest of clearing the poi why it is not marked as cleared on the map and there are no troop fending it against re-invasion of zeds? I'd like to have some npcs patrolling the area and even help me defend my base on horde nights!

Can't see how this would work in base game, but man you have some good idea there that could perhaps work well as a feature in a mod involving friendly NPCs!

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17 hours ago, th3s0n1c said:

Blake's suggestion already fixes the problem we're both discussing just by tying the reset to the POI once the quest is selected at the trader.

Unless you're someone like me, who often has a quest from the trader for days before I actually go do it. If that POI had been reset at the moment I took the quest then on a MP world it is very likely looted by the time I get to it.

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3 hours ago, Boidster said:

  Question for you: is that original thought that you claim TFP had - renewing an old, already-looted POI so it could host a quest - a valid design goal? That is, in a world where every building can be searched, looted, and destroyed, is it a valid design goal to be able to reset quest-related POIs?

 

If your answer is no, then you can forget the next part, because I misunderstand the basis of your argument. If your answer is yes, though...

 

Why is resetting an already-looted POI an "exploit", if it was a valid design decision? Is it only the time aspect that gets you worked up? Loot it 3 game days ago? No problem. Loot it 3 game minutes ago? Exploit. Is that it?

 

 

Yes and Yes.

3 hours ago, JCrook1028 said:

Those two issues are not connected. Even after making loot rooms non cheeseable (by nerdpoling for example) they still will need to reset the POI prior to every quest. The POI has to be in virgin condition at the start of the quest. Period. End of Story.

I didnt say they were connected. I said it could be worked into fixing both as a side effect.

 

So here is for both @JCrook1028 and @Boidster my problem is not really the fact that POI gets reset, it's that the SAME person will loot it twice because of that. If another player got there and looted it before you and you just reset the POI due to a quest, its fine.. because it's a valid design goal to keep the server from drying out. We already have a mechanic of loot respawn in place, why do it again? Might as well just make loot/zombies respawn everyday, then.

If I had to make another suggestion on how to deal with it, instead of reseting the POI upon accepting the quest on the trader, then reset the POI and activate the quest as soon as you enter it's perimeter. Problem solved.

 

3 hours ago, JCrook1028 said:

Unless you're someone like me, who often has a quest from the trader for days before I actually go do it. If that POI had been reset at the moment I took the quest then on a MP world it is very likely looted by the time I get to it.

That's your call on WHEN to do it, but keeping the consequence in mind for postponing it, just like someone could loot a POI you intended to but you chose to do it the day after. In a MP server you'd risk the chance of losing that quest and would have to get another one. It's not even that big of a deal.

And it's not "very likely", its POSSIBLE. Unless you're on T5 quests, there's hundreds upon hundreds of POIs in the game spread out across a MP server, what makes you say that the one where your quest is would be the one looted?

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8 hours ago, Rince said:

I imagine that they would need to make the NPC invencible, so they don't get killed before starting the quest.

 

...

 

I can see players using somehow this to defeat the Blood Moon horde. 😄

 

zombies ignore everything that isnt set in their ai  they have basically list of stuff they try attack /break  ... making them  100%  ignore some "npc"  is just verysmall change in xml  ...so they can  ignore quest giver .. hiden in trash container

4 hours ago, Boidster said:

  Question for you: is that original thought that you claim TFP had - renewing an old, already-looted POI so it could host a quest - a valid design goal? That is, in a world where every building can be searched, looted, and destroyed, is it a valid design goal to be able to reset quest-related POIs?

 

If your answer is no, then you can forget the next part, because I misunderstand the basis of your argument. If your answer is yes, though...

 

Why is resetting an already-looted POI an "exploit", if it was a valid design decision? Is it only the time aspect that gets you worked up? Loot it 3 game days ago? No problem. Loot it 3 game minutes ago? Exploit. Is that it?

its mostly overlooked abuse of system they made

respawning poi as well as loot isnt problem ....  problem is it doesnt reset zombies so tou kill them once and then  loot poi twice 

 

so solution is  primitive ... respawn zombies by starting quest  =  fresh poi is full of loot  but its not free loot  just fresh poi

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1 minute ago, alanea said:

problem is it doesnt reset zombies so tou kill them once and then  loot poi twice 

I'm confused, are you saying resetting the POI for a quest doesn't reset the zombies?   If thats what you're saying, you are incorrect.  The zombies do reset when you start the quest.

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6 minutes ago, Kalen said:

I'm confused, are you saying resetting the POI for a quest doesn't reset the zombies?   If thats what you're saying, you are incorrect.  The zombies do reset when you start the quest.

 it didnt in a17 a18 ... and as far i know nothing changed ... people mass abused  it  by clearing poi  starting quest and looting clean poi again

 

sure i can be wrong i dont abuse holes in game like this  siii maybe its fixed

Edited by alanea (see edit history)
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1 minute ago, alanea said:

 it didnt in a17 a18 ... and as far i know nothing changed ... people mass abused  it  by clearing poi  starting quest and looting clean poi again

Funny I would swear the clearing out zombies in A18 and A19 prior to activating the quest behaved like Kalen is saying.  I am about to start a new game and I think I will check that out on my first tier 1 quest

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18 minutes ago, alanea said:

 it didnt in a17 a18 ... and as far i know nothing changed ... people mass abused  it  by clearing poi  starting quest and looting clean poi again

 

sure i can be wrong i dont abuse holes in game like this  siii maybe its fixed

You are mistaken.... in A17-A19 starting a quest resets everything in the POI including zombies.   

 

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Here’s a question for those who see double dipping as an exploit:

 

Immersion aside, what if the POI changed to a different POI when it reset? Would you still consider it an exploit to clear it and then reset it and then have an entirely different layout to clear the second time?  

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43 minutes ago, Roland said:

Here’s a question for those who see double dipping as an exploit:

 

Immersion aside, what if the POI changed to a different POI when it reset? Would you still consider it an exploit to clear it and then reset it and then have an entirely different layout to clear the second time?  

I guess not, because it would be the same as going to explore another POI. But then again.. holy @%$#, that would be @%$#ed up and immersion breaking AF rofl..

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On 10/2/2020 at 1:04 AM, Roland said:

I haven't kept track. Interesting.

There are no company lines or talking points. I don't agree with everything and have been vocal about where I see things differently. The difference is that once I know a decision is final I respect it and move on whereas others continue to harp and harp and harp pointlessly on issues that are dead and buried and over with. Life is too short to keep grinding an axe that serves no purpose.

I don't agree on your occasional disagreement  and respectfuly disrespect that you try to respect everyone as disrespecting axe grinders.

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13 hours ago, th3s0n1c said:

...

If I had to make another suggestion on how to deal with it, instead of reseting the POI upon accepting the quest on the trader, then reset the POI and activate the quest as soon as you enter it's perimeter. Problem solved.

...

Actually the incomplete prototype of a good idea. You forgot the MP case where a) people do not arrive at the same time and b) need to be inside the perimeter for the duration of the quest.

 

I think it could work that the POI is reset at arrival of the first player. For the quest to start you would still need the exclamation mark or that all players have entered the perimeter (such an automatic quest start would need a noticable cue, audio or visual).

Anyone see a further loophole or problem?

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, meganoth said:

Actually the incomplete prototype of a good idea. You forgot the MP case where a) people do not arrive at the same time and b) need to be inside the perimeter for the duration of the quest.

 

I think it could work that the POI is reset at arrival of the first player. For the quest to start you would still need the exclamation mark or that all players have entered the perimeter (such an automatic quest start would need a noticable cue, audio or visual).

Anyone see a further loophole or problem?

 

The only problem I can see is if its a POI you've left stuff at you'd have no way to go get it before it disappears.   

For example, I, like many others, will leave a chest outside a POI for dropping off loot while I clear it out.  I don't always empty it out after.... I come back for it when I get around to it.   If that POI then gets chosen for a quest, a reset will delete what I've left.   Currently, I'd just empty out the chest before I start the quest.   But with this proposal, I'd either have to abandon the quest or forfeit whatever I've left in the chest.

 

Granted, not a common occurrence, but still something that would annoy me.

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1 hour ago, Kalen said:

The only problem I can see is if its a POI you've left stuff at you'd have no way to go get it before it disappears.   

For example, I, like many others, will leave a chest outside a POI for dropping off loot while I clear it out.  I don't always empty it out after.... I come back for it when I get around to it.   If that POI then gets chosen for a quest, a reset will delete what I've left.   Currently, I'd just empty out the chest before I start the quest.   But with this proposal, I'd either have to abandon the quest or forfeit whatever I've left in the chest.

 

Granted, not a common occurrence, but still something that would annoy me.

Because of possible resets I always put chests outside the reset perimeter but near enough to be reachable from inside the perimeter. Usually that means in the middle of the street, which also makes them less likely to be forgotten. Since I often put the chest there even before starting the quest (to empty the inventory of loot gotten in the meantime), this is doubly advisable. 

 

So while it is a problem, there is a workaround that is even advantageous with the current mechanic too.

 

In some games I have a few subbases which I don't want to reset but can't secure with a bedroll. The idea by the3s0n1c is better for this case than Blake_s idea, because when you approach the POI you have a better chance to notice that you have to drop the quest than at the trader.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, meganoth said:

Actually the incomplete prototype of a good idea. You forgot the MP case where a) people do not arrive at the same time and b) need to be inside the perimeter for the duration of the quest.

 

I think it could work that the POI is reset at arrival of the first player. For the quest to start you would still need the exclamation mark or that all players have entered the perimeter (such an automatic quest start would need a noticable cue, audio or visual).

Anyone see a further loophole or problem?

 

Easy to fix: have the perimeter be visually indicated by a box (like the LCB perimeter). That way you can wait outside for your party members to arrive before you all enter it. Its sort of how it already works anyway: people have to be close to the question mark to get it started.

 

1 hour ago, Kalen said:

The only problem I can see is if its a POI you've left stuff at you'd have no way to go get it before it disappears.   

For example, I, like many others, will leave a chest outside a POI for dropping off loot while I clear it out.  I don't always empty it out after.... I come back for it when I get around to it.   If that POI then gets chosen for a quest, a reset will delete what I've left.   Currently, I'd just empty out the chest before I start the quest.   But with this proposal, I'd either have to abandon the quest or forfeit whatever I've left in the chest.

 

Granted, not a common occurrence, but still something that would annoy me.

Just have the chest placed outside the perimeter but still reachable from inside. Perimeter visually show as a LCB box.

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1 minute ago, th3s0n1c said:

Easy to fix: have the perimeter be visually indicated by a box (like the LCB perimeter). That way you can wait outside for your party members to arrive before you all enter it. Its sort of how it already works anyway: people have to be close to the question mark to get it started.

In A18 dig quests had a bug where missing players failed the quest if one started to dig. Even after that bug was well-known we sometimes forgot. The chance that someone forgets, stops his vehicle a block too late or while waiting and cutting trees steps inside might be too high. Also I think as few artitificial icons and lines as possible should show up regularily on our screen.

 

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26 minutes ago, meganoth said:

In A18 dig quests had a bug where missing players failed the quest if one started to dig. Even after that bug was well-known we sometimes forgot. The chance that someone forgets, stops his vehicle a block too late or while waiting and cutting trees steps inside might be too high. Also I think as few artitificial icons and lines as possible should show up regularily on our screen.

 

Dig quests wouldnt require the visual perimeter displayed like the POI's ones. They dont even have a question marker anyways. So it's a different matter altogether. That's a player management problem.

The artificial bound-box of the perimeter would replace another artificial icon: the ? marker. Should only be visible for those with the quest and disappear once the quest triggered. The perimeter is already there as of now, it just doesnt show or acts this way.

Edited by th3s0n1c (see edit history)
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17 hours ago, th3s0n1c said:

there's hundreds upon hundreds of POIs in the game spread out across a MP server

But each trader sends quests to the identical POI VERY often. And yes I mean exactly what I said, VERY often.

16 hours ago, alanea said:

 it didnt in a17 a18 ... and as far i know nothing changed ... people mass abused  it  by clearing poi  starting quest and looting clean poi again

 

sure i can be wrong i dont abuse holes in game like this  siii maybe its fixed

Seriousy? Is this entire thread based on your erroneous assumption that the zombies don't respawn as well? When is the last time you actually used the mechanic you're arguing against anyway? It has ALWAYS respawned the zombies.

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19 minutes ago, JCrook1028 said:

But each trader sends quests to the identical POI VERY often. And yes I mean exactly what I said, VERY often.

Then if every POI you loot is already looted because the trader always points you to the same ones, then you're not double clearing it anyways, are you? What is even your point anymore? That you cant be arsed to go and get another quest because one of them failed?

It still seems statistically innacurate for me. If you're still stuck doing the same POI's over and over... A) this is a game design that needs to be changed and B) you're not progressing in your quest system to other tiers. And this, again, is if we're not talking about Tiers 4 and 5 exclusively.

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I might sympathize with the argument against resetting POI's if the POI's layouts were challenging at all or if POI's themselves were rare. 

 

There are so many POI's clumped together and each has a loot room with a chest so it's not like getting double loot from a reset is really getting you extra loot you couldn't otherwise get.

 

When the feature was introduced I did reset the POI to loot twice. I don't do that anymore because I realized it was not worth the time. Better to loot once and run back to the trader for another quest for more XP. I can get the same loot from any POI in the area so it's a waste of time to loot twice while questing.

 

Also knowing the "layout" of a POI is really no help to me at least. I just run though and kill everything on the way. Zombies in this game are not really challenging at all once you have a gun. I just assume a zombie is around every turn so I'm not really surprised when it is actually true.

 

I'm talking about vanilla settings with no mods of course. On vanilla settings I have yet to be killed by zombies inside a POI.  Unless it was a zombie horde that crashed through the house from the outside trapping me. It's not that I'm so good at the game, rather it's the game is pretty easy on vanilla settings. 

 

If you adjust settings or mod things then that's on you not the game.

Edited by HungryZombie (see edit history)
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