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Blake_

About Double clearing POIs and how to fix it

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Sometime ago, I was witness to a conversation between @madmole and @Roland about the exploit of double clearing POIs. The community, as with many "gamey" choices is divided on this:

 

Ignore this following spoiler and skip to the detailed solution  if not interested of if you already know all this stuff and/or don't care. 

Spoiler

Arguments in favour:

 

Double the loot, u mad ?

Double the books if any, bye bye progression.

Double the experience, to hell with balance.

Multiplayer is crowded, empty and sad if we aren't allowed to double clear (come on, have we not infinite quests already?)

 

Arguments against:

 

Repetitive. Very repetitive. Fast loot with seldom any effort on lower quest tiers.

Unbalanced loot progression, I can have tons of what the POI has to offer and just do Tier 1 quests for efficiency.

Shortens the gameplay lifespan because an efficient player gets tired of clearing twice the same location .Yes, efficiency is common. For proof:  It's what gameplay comments are all about also : you should do this, you should do that... but ey : You can decide not to do it twice then. Yeah, sure, ignore that big fat reinforced Tier 1 chest for free. Go against human nature for the sake of "playing it cool" and "restraining"... restraining what, exactly ? the game mechanics ? the "design"?

 

Fix with ALL the basic edge cases and solutions:

 

1. Take the quest at the trader : At that very same instant, the POI resets. Period. 

EDGE CASE : What happens if there is already a player inside that POI, or if there are player-made structures built in that POI.

SOLUTION: You can reset it, with a warning for the quest taker of course. If a player is inside, it will catapult him/her to the outside of the POI like current traders do. Be aware this will be a rare Edge Case even in 4k maps and 8 players, THAT IS when the RWG and the quests function properly and sort themselves properly without repetition between players in RWG-multiplayer .

 

2.Go to the quest marker in the POI: Now you can activate the quest marker on the spot with the current A19 rules, but of course without the reseting and warnings, which they were given at the trader.

 

EDGE CASE: What happens if the quest is multiplayer and the other players are not there ?

 

SOLUTION: As it is now. The only difference is the described POI reset in point 1. The quest marker (flag) is there to be able to "start" the quest "finish" directive and to avoid multiPOI activation. If it's already finished due to emergent gameplay "clearing" then so be it and the quest gets instafinished. That instafinished edge case is detailed below, and it would only work with  the "clear" directive. Free reward for an unforeseen event ? better than double clearing.

 

EDGE CASE: What happens if another player clears the POI  and/or takes the secret stash or destroys the satchel before you get to the quest ? 

-SOLUTION-

 

FETCH:

A non-quest player should not be able to destroy a questing player's satchel for fetch searchs. Only the player/s with that very same quest on that spot (must be the current activated one ) can destroy any and all the satchels.The non-quest player already cannot see the secret stash inside the satchel so one cannot "steal" a secret stash and therefore "jinx" the quest.  

 

CLEAR:

The non-quest player can clear the Zombies on the POI within the timeframe of another player activating the quest and getting to the quest marker. If the questing player activates the marker and the Zombies are already killed, then so be it and the quests gets instafinished to that player or players doing it. Rare case though. There are many POIs in the game. This is emergent gameplay. You can't kill a guy that's already dead.

 

BURIED: Once activated, the area of the chest already has Zds there or bandits patrolling. They spawn when entering the chunk of course. If they are Zds, they should also be "patrolling" or even idle inside the area ( to avoid them wandering off the site) until the player gets within viewing distance.

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

No timers. Too many edge cases with timers.

 

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Double looting is only a thing up to tier 3. From at least tier 4 quests on it is too time consuming to clear and loot the same POI twice.


The only advantage of double looting is that you save time on the way from the trader to the POI and back since all the zombies inside respawn as well.

Besides, it can happen that a trader gives the same POI over and over again for quests. Happend to me a lot in my last playthrough.

 

I do not understand why this is such a problem for you. If you don't like it then don't do it.

 

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Just need to stop resetting POI in world.

Reset POI is a bad trick that doesn't need to be fixed, but needs to be disposed of and buried in the grave. Since TFP is able to do it well.

Edited by n2n1 (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, n2n1 said:

Just need to stop resetting POI in world.

Reset POI is a bad trick that doesn't need to be fixed, but needs to be disposed of and buried in the grave. Since TFP is able to do it well.

While I agree that not having it at all would be the designer's "wet dream", resetting is needed for cleanup and handling quests in a way that enforces a minimum pleasant experience to all the players in all the possible environments (if there's no reset even on quests, the world will become empty). Bethesda just resets on loading the location or blocks access until quest activation, but in a seamless setting TFP can't do that. The suggestion is designed to maximize freedom while maintaining a good, solid and emergent gameplay. 

Edited by Blake_ (see edit history)

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2 hours ago, RipClaw said:

Double looting is only a thing up to tier 3.

[...]

I do not understand why this is such a problem for you. If you don't like it then don't do it.

I don't want to, but my co-player insists of double looting. But yeah, he stopped with that at least at T5 quests. However, depending on the POI he still insists on fetching the main loot, especially if it is accessible quickly (e.g shamway factory, just pick a hole in the tower, run straigt up, directly go to the lootroom).

 

Once you have a vehicle, double looting is not worth it anymore, because the time loss on the walkways is minimal. You could do two trader quests instead of looting one building twice (at least from T2).

 

1 hour ago, n2n1 said:

Reset POI is a bad trick that doesn't need to be fixed, but needs to be disposed of and buried in the grave. Since TFP is able to do it well.

The resetting is required, because POIs can be destroyed and that may make a quest unfinishable. Assume you completely teared off a POI and then get a quest there? Ever fought with a mid-level-shotgun in a poi? It rips half the poi appart!

Or another player fortified the building (without sleeping bag or landclaim). Assume the spawn locations for the bags for fetchquests are blocked? Clear quest where the dungeon-structure is not visible, after you cleared the poi already before? Have fun searching the last 2 remaining zombies in a T5 POI...

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1 minute ago, Liesel Weppen said:

I don't want to, but my co-player insists of double looting. But yeah, he stopped with that at least at T5 quests. However, depending on the POI he still insists on fetching the main loot, especially if it is accessible quickly (e.g shamway factory, just pick a hole in the tower, run straigt up, directly go to the lootroom).

 

Once you have a vehicle, double looting is not worth it anymore, because the time loss on the walkways is minimal. You could do two trader quests instead of looting one building twice (at least from T2).

So true. The main point is that it is repetitive. Much more so than doing many quick quests when you are strong and fast, which is -I think- the actual intended design.

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I think the issue is less whether TFP would like to prevent double looting and more whether TFP thinks its worth the effort and the risk at this stage of development. TFP haven't finalized how loot rooms will work. They've talked about various ways to make it harder to cheese loot, e.g., locked doors requiring key cards. If TFP implements a solid way to discourage loot cheesing any effort spent on preventing double looting could be wasted time better spent elsewhere. For now, players have agency to decide whether they will double loot or cheese loot rooms. In my opinion, that's sufficient for now. 

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1 hour ago, Blake_ said:

While I agree that not having it at all would be the designer's "wet dream", resetting is needed for cleanup and handling quests in a way that enforces a minimum pleasant experience to all the players in all the possible environments (if there's no reset even on quests, the world will become empty). Bethesda just resets on loading the location or blocks access until quest activation, but in a seamless setting TFP can't do that. The suggestion is designed to maximize freedom while maintaining a good, solid and emergent gameplay. 

Yes, of course i understand for what its done.

But it doesn't work.... it just doesn't work. This is just the case when need to come up with something else. Something else with the same purpose. This is not the only thing in the game that can be done - need to come up with good game feature that will work and not conflict with the concept of the game.

Edited by n2n1 (see edit history)
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7 minutes ago, n2n1 said:

But it doesn't work.... it just doesn't work.

Because it is not finished yet. It is just a snapshot of ongoing development, but not finished.

 

And there is a general conflict between having a fully modifiable world and prevent player from cheesing into certain lootrooms. You can make a lootroom sourrounded by strong walls, then it will take longer to destroy them, but you can still cheese. I personally don't want undestructible POIs in quests. Wouldn't even work since there are still some "hidden" lootrooms in POIs that can only be reached by breaking something... and that is good! Also the POI structure needs to adept such changes. As you can see POIs have heavily changed since trader quests have been implemented. There haven't been any dungeon-like POIs before that changes.

 

There are of course simple ways, like e.g. you get a keycard from the trader that opens the main loot chests (and especially ONLY these chests) and you can't open without that keycard (hitting on it will destroy it, not unlock), but it is not in the game yet, maybe something like that comes with A20 or A21... just because it is not there yet doesn't mean it's the final state and nobody ever thought about it.

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8 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

Because it is not finished yet. It is just a snapshot of ongoing development, but not finished.

 

And there is a general conflict between having a fully modifiable world and prevent player from cheesing into certain lootrooms. You can make a lootroom sourrounded by strong walls, then it will take longer to destroy them, but you can still cheese. I personally don't want undestructible POIs in quests. Wouldn't even work since there are still some "hidden" lootrooms in POIs that can only be reached by breaking something... and that is good! Also the POI structure needs to adept such changes. As you can see POIs have heavily changed since trader quests have been implemented. There haven't been any dungeon-like POIs before that changes.

 

There are of course simple ways, like e.g. you get a keycard from the trader that opens the main loot chests (and especially ONLY these chests) and you can't open without that keycard (hitting on it will destroy it, not unlock), but it is not in the game yet, maybe something like that comes with A20 or A21... just because it is not there yet doesn't mean it's the final state and nobody ever thought about it.

The problem is the doubling, I'm not really talking about the access to the final room (subject for another post). That is a whole other balance problem regarding bosses and MM's migraines. Also, everything in a POI is cheesable by doubling, not only the final loot : cobblestone, experience, cement, thousands of dukes worth of parts, hidden chests, etc.  Not having doubling as I suggest will improve the game. Then we can talk about the boss stuff and some more invulnerability/huge hp-related issues.

 

I will post another -non pimp dream- design regarding Trader respawn and loot rooms, story campaign locations and the weak and impeding design of invulnerability as a whole when we get to it in a few months (events and npcs need to be in the works for that).

 

 

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52 minutes ago, n2n1 said:

Yes, of course i understand for what its done.

But it doesn't work.... it just doesn't work. This is just the case when need to come up with something else. Something else with the same purpose. This is not the only thing in the game that can be done - need to come up with good game feature that will work and not conflict with the concept of the game.

First show us how it doesn't work. Does double dipping give you more than if you just looted the neighboring building before doing the quest? No.

 

Just to clear up one probably counterargument: "But the neighboring buildings could be already looted!" someone might ask. Answer: "If all the neighboring buildings were looted already then the quest building was very likely looted as well and you could not loot anyway.

 

There is one case where double dipping has a small advantage: If there are buildings that are more desirable to loot than others. At the moment this is only marginally the case.

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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I really don´t see the problem with double loot, ressources and XP. You will get pretty much the same in the house next to it. If you deceide to double loot one house instead of doing 2 houses next to each other or any other on the way to your quest, that´s simply a personal choice. 

 

Edit: Heh, too slow.

 

Loot rooms that are simply to reach from the outside are way more of a problem.

 

 

Edited by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)
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3 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

The problem is the doubling, I'm not really talking about the access to the final room (subject for another post). That is a whole other balance problem regarding bosses and MM's migraines. Also, everything in a POI is cheesable by doubling, not only the final loot : cobblestone, experience, cement, thousands of dukes worth of parts, hidden chests, etc.  Not having doubling as I suggest will improve the game. Then we can talk about the boss stuff and some more invulnerability/huge hp-related issues.

 

This is a really myopic view of the problem. Your solution does not solve Traders resetting POIs. Everything you believe to be an issue will remain an issue as long as traders reset POIs. The only difference between a trader resetting a POI you have already looted and a POI resetting when the player clicks the quest marker are player choices. A player can choose to double loot or not.

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12 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

The problem is the doubling, I'm not really talking about the access to the final room (subject for another post). 

It is an alternative solution to prevent doubling, if you can not open the main loot without the quest being active. Or if there is no main loot without a quest.

At least it reduces the will to double loot. At least we didn't do it for the common loot, but primarily for the main loot.

 

11 minutes ago, meganoth said:

First show us how it doesn't work. Does double dipping give you more than if you just looted the neighboring building before doing the quest? No.

That's not the question if you could loot other buildings as well. If you loot the neighbour building and then start the quest, in the end both buildings are looted and the "free respawn" was wasted. If you loot the quest-poi twice, the neighbour poi is still unlooted and you used the respawn. That's what mostly is in peoples mind.

 

Imho the poi-quest-respawn made the whole loot respawn somehow obsolete, because the loot will renew with each quests anyway. Except in early game where you sadly most times get quests far away while you are still on foot only, we never looted any POI without a quest, because why should we? There is no better loot and you get no quest reward. And since the traders are now all directly on the edge of towns, basically everybody places his base next to the trader. So you will return to the trader each time anyway...

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39 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

It is an alternative solution to prevent doubling, if you can not open the main loot without the quest being active. Or if there is no main loot without a quest.

At least it reduces the will to double loot. At least we didn't do it for the common loot, but primarily for the main loot.

 

That's not the question if you could loot other buildings as well. If you loot the neighbour building and then start the quest, in the end both buildings are looted and the "free respawn" was wasted. If you loot the quest-poi twice, the neighbour poi is still unlooted and you used the respawn. That's what mostly is in peoples mind.

 

Imho the poi-quest-respawn made the whole loot respawn somehow obsolete, because the loot will renew with each quests anyway. Except in early game where you sadly most times get quests far away while you are still on foot only, we never looted any POI without a quest, because why should we? There is no better loot and you get no quest reward. And since the traders are now all directly on the edge of towns, basically everybody places his base next to the trader. So you will return to the trader each time anyway...

We don't double-dip and it still made the loot respawn obsolete in our co-op game. So is it the quest respawn in general that is made obsolete (with or without double dip) or only if you double dip?

 

If we abstract a little then double dipping allows us to loot the whole town exactly one additional time without having a quest for it. An ability you have anyway and an ability that seems superfluous as you can get an endless stream of quests for buildings in your town (especially once the "only tier5 quests" limit in the late game falls)

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)

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10 minutes ago, meganoth said:

We don't double-dip and it still made the loot respawn obsolete in our co-op game. So is it the quest respawn in general that is made obsolete (with or without double dip) or only if you double dip?

The respawn did in general. But for some people it obviously "feels" better if you double loot once you are there. I'm the same opinion as you, as i said i wouldn't do it, but my mate insistes of double looting, because he somehow thinks he "lost an opportunity" i guess.

I tried explaining him multiple times it is even a complete a waste of time looting a POI without a quest anyway, also double looting because you have a quest there, but he oviously doesn't get it. (except in very early game).

 

The respawn doesn't even allow to loot a town "one additional time", it basically allows you to loot a town endless. Even with playing on a nitrogen map with a very huge town and pois being mixed much better, quests start soon repeating on pois you already did. We even got 3 times the same poi in a row with T2 quests.

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1 hour ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

This is a really myopic view of the problem. Your solution does not solve Traders resetting POIs. Everything you believe to be an issue will remain an issue as long as traders reset POIs. The only difference between a trader resetting a POI you have already looted and a POI resetting when the player clicks the quest marker are player choices. A player can choose to double loot or not.

It will not remain an issue. Do you have before hand knowledge of which POI is the one that the quest is going to take you to so you can do it before taking the quest after applying my "fixing the doubling" suggestion ? . Nope. 99% of the time you don't. 

 

The problem is not the reset. The problem is the doubling done by the same player. The only fix for No resetting is just no resetting, resulting in an empty world, barren lands and only quests for those who got there first. Not really a gamey situation, is it?. Not really a myope either, I have 20/20 sight.

33 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

The respawn did in general. But for some people it obviously "feels" better if you double loot once you are there. I'm the same opinion as you, as i said i wouldn't do it, but my mate insistes of double looting, because he somehow thinks he "lost an opportunity" i guess.

I tried explaining him multiple times it is even a complete a waste of time looting a POI without a quest anyway, also double looting because you have a quest there, but he oviously doesn't get it. (except in very early game).

 

The respawn doesn't even allow to loot a town "one additional time", it basically allows you to loot a town endless. Even with playing on a nitrogen map with a very huge town and pois being mixed much better, quests start soon repeating on pois you already did. We even got 3 times the same poi in a row with T2 quests.

I would give the doubling mechanic the benefit of the doubt, as long as they eventually fix it. There's no lost opportunity if there isn't an opportunity by design, therefore eliminating repeating boredom and loot exploits.For now, it is an alpha. But two years from now we could be facing a mix between Pamela Anderson and George Clooney in terms of design. Respawn as a single time thing per quest is gamey, it works for me as long as the first time there are bandits, the second time I do a quest there, there are zombies, the next time dancing bears on a pole... it could be ok if done right.

Edited by Blake_ (see edit history)

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@Liesel Weppen Than just add 2 buildings to the quest one. It doesn´t change anything if you loot the quest POI twice and another house or only once and 2 others. You still get the XP, ressources and loot from 3 houses in both cases during the same time.

 

Main loot like on that dungeon POI with 3  shops and a crack a book at the end where the loot is just on the roof with no Z´s in your way or Water works where there is only one zombie between you and the main loot are the real problem.

Edited by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)
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I find double looting to be a non issue really.  Double looting a POI can only happen once per quest building.  If a player wants to loot a building and then activate the quest to loot the same building again I say go right ahead.  With how frequently we get the same buildings over and over during questing I don't see a problem looting it one additional time lol.

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11 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

There's no lost opportunity if there isn't an opportunity by design, therefore eliminating repeating boredom and loot exploits.

Looting is boring in itself because it is the same over and over again. No matter if you loot the same POI twice or two different POIs. There is nothing creative about looting. You just kill all zombies and then search all the loot containers you find.

 

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2 hours ago, Liesel Weppen said:

The respawn did in general. But for some people it obviously "feels" better if you double loot once you are there. I'm the same opinion as you, as i said i wouldn't do it, but my mate insistes of double looting, because he somehow thinks he "lost an opportunity" i guess.

I tried explaining him multiple times it is even a complete a waste of time looting a POI without a quest anyway, also double looting because you have a quest there, but he oviously doesn't get it. (except in very early game).

 

The respawn doesn't even allow to loot a town "one additional time", it basically allows you to loot a town endless. Even with playing on a nitrogen map with a very huge town and pois being mixed much better, quests start soon repeating on pois you already did. We even got 3 times the same poi in a row with T2 quests.

Exactly. Since double dipping is only a perceived advantage the only question is whether the game should be changed so the typical player feels it is balanced, even though it actually is balanced already.

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)

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Or the answer is, if people feel an advantage even if there is no one and they don't get it even if someone explains it, let them do so. And people that are anoyed of it and aware that it has no advantage, simply skip it.

 

If it is changed in whatever way, there for sure dozens of people will stand up and complain that that "exploit" was removed. ;)

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32 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

Or the answer is, if people feel an advantage even if there is no one and they don't get it even if someone explains it, let them do so. And people that are anoyed of it and aware that it has no advantage, simply skip it.

 

If it is changed in whatever way, there for sure dozens of people will stand up and complain that that "exploit" was removed. ;)

Yes, I want to kill Alduin twice, if you don't mind. Oh, and let me reset all the Whiterun inhabitants for that cabbage fetch quest, just in case someone killed the non-essencial ones that I fancied. I have the restraint for not killing them both times though. I'm a grown man. 

Reset all the random assassination quests to be on the same exact place even if I already killed the man. It's just a game. More freedom is better than no freedom, right ?

Now, If Whiterun got full of different creatures on reset, that would be awesome.

 

I believe you are starting to get that while repeating quests at the exact same place is unavoidable, designing the thing to be less repetitive could improve the game, as per my OP. Eliminating double clearing is good for the game. It wouldn't eliminate a possible "double clearing" if you cleared that POI before accepting the quest, but in that case it really does not matter .... it fits into the lore/theme if there's variety. For example:

 

I cleared it from Zds now there's bandits, cool. But not:

 

I have a quest here, here it is the quest marker. Wait, Imma go inside and explore, loot and kill everything and get lots of stuff, and then I will hit the mark for double goodness. Now THAT'S a problem.

Edited by Blake_ (see edit history)
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9 minutes ago, Blake_ said:

I believe you are starting to get that while repeating quests at the exact same place is unavoidable, designing the thing to be less repetitive could improve the game, as per my OP. Eliminating double clearing is good for the game.

Quests getting repetitive and eliminating double clearing are two completely independent things.

If you got even more anoyed by repetition because you still do double clearing additionally, simply stop double clearing. Was explained here now often enough that it doesn't have a reasonable advantage anyway.

 

And you will see, it is still repetitive, even if you don't double clear. Completely different question.

 

If you want it to become less repetitive, the are only 2 ways:

a) add more questable POIs for all tiers of quests

b) make the trader give you a quest per POI only once

 

But B would make the quests not endlessly and therefore again... you don't want to hear it... increase the value of double clearing again.

And A would just make it LESS repetitive, because even with more POIs at one you did all, and it starts from the beginning.

 

However, adding a threshold to the trader quests to not hand out same POIs in close time again may also help a little bit.

But however if you reach t5... there are not many POIs that are even t5 compatible. How many are there? like 6 or 8 different?

 

And the RWG-generated villages with 2x2 grid, that have only like 25 POIs, in theory provide a only a maximum of 25 quests until it becomes repetitive if you don't move on. (and the town generation of RWG and even more the randomnes of POIs is still crap, that's the primary reason why we used a nitrogen map).

Edited by Liesel Weppen (see edit history)
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