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Tombuilder

A proposal for loot/weaponry

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Love the game, have around 700 hours since starting playing just before the release of a18(I know, I know, but there was a lot of free time in lockdown if you don't have kids!).

 

Also took me forever to write this as my wrists are still sore from surgery scars this week but it needs to be said before we go too far down the T0 expansion rabbit hole. I really hope by posting here it is considered by Devs, not bundled in to a longer thread. So here goes:

 

Unlike many others I don't mind the slower progression of loot in A19. In a18 you were fully kitted out with badass gear very quickly.  Though it would be nice if there was a 1/5000 chance or so to get a level one higher tier item outside your gamestage tier.

 

A better balance for me to solve people's issue with finding stone age stuff in safes etc would have been to find ammo, mods and WEAPON PARTS in better chests/safes/etc. Then top crate looting is still worth it and people who are desperate for a real gun they can put a perk point in to that weapon type and craft it.

 

What I think is a terrible idea is removing the blunderbuss and replacing it with crappy tier 0 guns.

 

The first week or two (subject to leveling speed) of gameplay is a time to get a feel for the horde, be afraid, get used to melee and In a tight spot, blunderbuss some zombies who jump scare you in the face.

 

I like the difference the blunderbuss brings to the game in terms of strategy and playing differently. Ditto picking up basic melee weapons and giving them ago before you get better stuff and settle in to a type or in to easy zombie annihilator Mode. 

 

I just don't understand the need for tier 0 guns. It's just pandering to a dumbed down, FPS style game experience, and it makes more of the game more samey. Weaker zombies weaker guns. Stronger zombies stronger guns. Having weapon parts and the rudimentary blunderbuss instead makes the player make choices (do I put that point in pistol crafting so I can have a gun early with these parts I'm finding in safes,  or do I go with cardio to run away from the random horde I'm not yet ready to face? Or do I perk in to iron gut so I can spend less time looking for food?)

 

My being able to fashion a rudimentary pistol from day 1 out of old pipes is for me is far more immersion breaking than finding a few stone tools around the place, and even if it weren't I'd solve the stone tools thing as mentioned above with weapons parts (or in other types of crates more springs, mech.parts, food etc etc.)

 

More importantly, it makes the game dumber and makes the gameplay the same throughout. 7d is wonderful because it's different and challenges you to work in different ways/do different things as you progress, and crucially, it makes you make choices.

 

T0 guns seems like the worst of all worlds to me.

 

I do like the sound of some areas being harder and equally more rewarding loot (as planned for a20), and think that could be implemented in conjunction with this solution instead of T0 guns.

 

I would be interested to hear others thoughts on this. I would be thrilled to hear some Devs views on this solution.

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As already said before, I would like to have poi's that are impossible to pass with newbie, and crates that are unreal to open without a lock picking perk. And put adequate loot there.

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There are multiple problems here what generates this issue, first the difficulty setting in this game turns the dead into bullet sponges, this makes it sure that it feels like as if you fight 6-9 zombies in a room but in reality its just 3 with upscaled hp. Regardless of what we want to pretend this game IS an fps zombie survival, hell even the videos put on steam for the game show that you gonna need those guns badly to progress.

 

Melee in its current form in most cases is a fallback weapon when your reload would kill you or a low priority weapon you use to not waste bullets. Even thought i have a T6 steel club fully modded and specced into its still a weapon i use to deal with like 3 undead in a room at daytime for anything else its guns or death. Sure there are people who go differently but the melee play in this game is basically "whack 'em" theres no strategy involved you whack and step back, repeat till the dead stays dead.

 

The first horde is easy, you dont really fear them at all no matter what gear you use, the second one is default lenght its more hard but also pushes into the "need guns to get rid of these guys" territory and from onward you will rely on them more and more.

 

My opinion is that the main problem in the whole situation is not the slow progression but the fact that we try to pretend like the stone age is actually part of it. These items are cobbled together in no time and if you decide to perk into their specific perk what makes you craft higher tier tools it also affects all tools, you are not progressively becoming better with your stone crafting but you just skip ages with the perks. You could literally remove all stone tools from the loot tables and keep the current system as it is currently and it wouldnt change anything expect that you now need to actually craft these items so it seems like you are progressing.

 

 

2 hours ago, Tombuilder said:

What I think is a terrible idea is removing the blunderbuss and replacing it with crappy tier 0 guns.

 

T0 guns seems like the worst of all worlds to me.

Immersion breaking and suspension of disbelief are too here for another problem to fight. You may say that you find it immersion breaking that you could cobble together some primite pistol but thats the same as the blunderbuss. Its a primitive shotgun weapon, anybody can make it on day 1.

The soo called T0 pistols and rifles are not going to be any different as you already accepted the blunderbuss so unless you harbor some double standard you should have any problems with pipeguns.

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3 hours ago, Vampirenostra said:

As already said before, I would like to have poi's that are impossible to pass with newbie, and crates that are unreal to open without a lock picking perk. And put adequate loot there.

Something like this is planned for A20. Just be patient.
 

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3 hours ago, Solomon said:

There are multiple problems here what generates this issue, first the difficulty setting in this game turns the dead into bullet sponges, this makes it sure that it feels like as if you fight 6-9 zombies in a room but in reality its just 3 with upscaled hp. Regardless of what we want to pretend this game IS an fps zombie survival, hell even the videos put on steam for the game show that you gonna need those guns badly to progress.

 

Melee in its current form in most cases is a fallback weapon when your reload would kill you or a low priority weapon you use to not waste bullets. Even thought i have a T6 steel club fully modded and specced into its still a weapon i use to deal with like 3 undead in a room at daytime for anything else its guns or death. Sure there are people who go differently but the melee play in this game is basically "whack 'em" theres no strategy involved you whack and step back, repeat till the dead stays dead.

 

The first horde is easy, you dont really fear them at all no matter what gear you use, the second one is default lenght its more hard but also pushes into the "need guns to get rid of these guys" territory and from onward you will rely on them more and more.

 

My opinion is that the main problem in the whole situation is not the slow progression but the fact that we try to pretend like the stone age is actually part of it. These items are cobbled together in no time and if you decide to perk into their specific perk what makes you craft higher tier tools it also affects all tools, you are not progressively becoming better with your stone crafting but you just skip ages with the perks. You could literally remove all stone tools from the loot tables and keep the current system as it is currently and it wouldnt change anything expect that you now need to actually craft these items so it seems like you are progressing.

 

 

Immersion breaking and suspension of disbelief are too here for another problem to fight. You may say that you find it immersion breaking that you could cobble together some primite pistol but thats the same as the blunderbuss. Its a primitive shotgun weapon, anybody can make it on day 1.

The soo called T0 pistols and rifles are not going to be any different as you already accepted the blunderbuss so unless you harbor some double standard you should have any problems with pipeguns.

I respectfully disagree. No one is pretending anything. Of course there is an FPS element but 'survival, horde, crafting' are all in the subtitle for a reason I would think, that is that it's not just a re up of any other first person shooter game.

 

I don't agree that it has to be guns or death, I have cleared many POIs and survived many hordes/built many horde night bases using melee only or a mic of melee and traps rather than guns. 

 

I personally find quite a lot of variation in different styles of melee. The step back hit method you describe mainly reflects bats. With sledge it's sweeping power attack that hits several at once, with knives it's bleed and run and with stun baton it's hit lock and smash. Block doorways with blocks to hold the z's up while you smash them. Get a couple of points in parkour so you can jump higher than them on to shelves etc and take them out from above and so on and so on. 

 

I totally agree with you about the zombies being bullet sponges with higher difficulty (I also  find that annoying) try using mods to up zombie numbers or horde sizes, or to increase head shot damage. 8-16x zombies makes the game very different. Not all computers can handle it but if yours can I recommend it.

 

I mentioned immersion breaking because people regularly rage against stone tools in sealed boxes for that reason.

 

However blunderbusses are things that exist in real life  so I don't assume they're cobbled together by the character. Immersion aside it's nice to have an early stage gun (the bludnerbuss) that functions differently as it maintains variations in gameplay - a point you didn't address. 

 

I'm not quite sure what you're saying re crafting items but if I understand correctly it's that crafting better stuff instead of looting better stuff is down to deciding to go in to specific perks? I say that's a good thing. It makes each game different in the early stages (before mid-late game  where you have loads of everything), and it encourages the player to make choices, because this game isn't just a straight FPS, it's a survival horde crafting building game. 

 

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Solomon said:

melee play in this game is basically "whack 'em" theres no strategy involved you whack and step back, repeat till the dead stays dead.

You can say that with a straight face after saying the game shows you early on you're gonna need guns to survive? How is there any more strategy to shooting zombies than there is to melee them? I'd actually argue the exact opposite is true.

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Never played with hordes less than 8 units... My last one is 32... And yes I have XP x200 as I hate Stone Age, and  zeds come each third night, and they freaking run! and I do need guns to survive with 32 zeds roaming at my base and demolishing most of it to the basement in first horde night, so have to get concrete before day 6, or they will tear me apart. And I love crafting and building part of the game, and still can't understand how we got to the place where it is easier to loot stuff that to craft it.

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20 minutes ago, Vampirenostra said:

Never played with hordes less than 8 units... My last one is 32... And yes I have XP x200 as I hate Stone Age, and  zeds come each third night, and they freaking run! and I do need guns to survive with 32 zeds roaming at my base and demolishing most of it to the basement in first horde night, so have to get concrete before day 6, or they will tear me apart. And I love crafting and building part of the game, and still can't understand how we got to the place where it is easier to loot stuff that to craft it.

Well sure, if you change the settings to make the game much harder than the default settings your need for guns becomes greater.   But isn't that the point of using those settings, to make it harder?

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2 hours ago, Kalen said:

Well sure, if you change the settings to make the game much harder than the default settings your need for guns becomes greater.   But isn't that the point of using those settings, to make it harder?

I simply like em commin) Do not find that much fun to walk around with a club and pick em out one by one, bullet sponges make me sick too)))

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On 9/25/2020 at 4:18 PM, Tombuilder said:

I respectfully disagree. No one is pretending anything. Of course there is an FPS element but 'survival, horde, crafting' are all in the subtitle for a reason I would think, that is that it's not just a re up of any other first person shooter game.

Yeah but none of those (survival, horde, crafting) actually nail down the combat type of the game aka FPS/TPS, Magic, Bullet Hell, Rythm, Figthing, Hack and Slash, Etc...

 

Thought i do agree that guns are not everything in this game but its also not a game where you are hoarding an absurd mass of different melee weapons with you to deal with all kinds of enemies like in Dying Light, Dark Souls or Skyrim.

On 9/25/2020 at 4:18 PM, Tombuilder said:

However blunderbusses are things that exist in real life  so I don't assume they're cobbled together by the character. Immersion aside it's nice to have an early stage gun (the bludnerbuss) that functions differently as it maintains variations in gameplay - a point you didn't address.

So do pipeguns and pistols, infact you can at any time make a "blunderbuss" at home. The ingame recipe is pretty damm close to the actual weapon recipe because all you need is a sturdy pipe, close one of the ends, drill a hole in the closed end, fill with the "load"(usually a piece of iron or stone with cannon style layering) and trigger by setting fire in the drilled hole.

 

450px-Zip_guns,_selection.JPG

On 9/25/2020 at 4:18 PM, Tombuilder said:

I personally find quite a lot of variation in different styles of melee. The step back hit method you describe mainly reflects bats. With sledge it's sweeping power attack that hits several at once, with knives it's bleed and run and with stun baton it's hit lock and smash. Block doorways with blocks to hold the z's up while you smash them. Get a couple of points in parkour so you can jump higher than them on to shelves etc and take them out from above and so on and so on. 

Im using clubs, its always a heavy sling what hits multiple targets killing them almost instantly. If they still stand i take a step back so i dont get into their attack range and continue whacking.

They are varied in their animation but i feel like theres not much difference between a club, stun baton and a sledge throught their attacks. Its my nitpick but the attacks dont feel impactful.

 

21 hours ago, JCrook1028 said:

You can say that with a straight face after saying the game shows you early on you're gonna need guns to survive? How is there any more strategy to shooting zombies than there is to melee them? I'd actually argue the exact opposite is true.

Yes, the difficulty is increased along with the zombie spawn numbers and with a mod to regularly see a horde.

 

For generic vanilla gameplay it spices things up for modded experience for challange its necesseary.

 

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On 9/25/2020 at 12:53 AM, Tombuilder said:

What I think is a terrible idea is removing the blunderbuss and replacing it with crappy tier 0 guns

As far as I know, TFP also thinks that is a terrible idea and isn't planning to do that at all. The crappy tier 0 guns will be added to crates in addition to the blunderbuss and the only change to the blunderbuss I am aware of is to possibly change it's art so it looks more like an apocalyptic pipe weapon and less of a 19th century pirate weapon. 

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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On 9/25/2020 at 2:02 AM, Vampirenostra said:

As already said before, I would like to have poi's that are impossible to pass with newbie, and crates that are unreal to open without a lock picking perk. And put adequate loot there.

There's an element of this I kind of like as well. Leans more towards late stage goals. 

I also want to be able to pick locked doors! I think the reason we can't is to prevent the path laid out in POIs. 

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10 hours ago, Lenny Lettuce Lips said:

There's an element of this I kind of like as well. Leans more towards late stage goals. 

I also want to be able to pick locked doors! I think the reason we can't is to prevent the path laid out in POIs. 

How about raiding a police station for a shotgun & few pistols? But they have to be there and it has to be tough. Fill it up with zeds!

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On 9/26/2020 at 1:08 PM, Roland said:

As far as I know, TFP also thinks that is a terrible idea and isn't planning to do that at all. The crappy tier 0 guns will be added to crates in addition to the blunderbuss and the only change to the blunderbuss I am aware of is to possibly change it's art so it looks more like an apocalyptic pipe weapon and less of a 19th century pirate weapon. 

Nice! I love the blundy!

I think that the piratey looks is pretty charming.  Hope that they keep it.

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