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Lenny Lettuce Lips

Us Versus Them

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I've been playing this game since the last gasp of A16, and I started right into A17 stable. 

 

I've been predominantly lurking the forums ever since and I've noted a theme. A lot of experienced players with this game versus newer guys who stumble upon the forum. 

 

 A lot of the oldies seem to be burning out on the fact that it's still trapped in alpha. Years later. A sentiment I can appreciate. A lot of the newer guys seem to be really enjoying the game, and they've gone out of their way to get on this forum about it. 

I enjoy the hell out of this game. To me, it scratches an itch that a lot of similar games can't, and I enjoy that. I've gotten more than my money's worth and I love that it has such a diehard (if sometimes indignant) community, and that the devs seem to both care and bother with it. It's not dead in the water, and I think that a lot of the newer guys see that. They see the potential. A lot of the more salty oldies seem to have stopped seeing the potential and only miss the previous iterations. It ain't finished yet. Although I get the worry about the when. Not that I wanna start a flame war at all, more a matter of my own green-ness kinda speaking out. 

I wanna support these guys because I want to see the best game they can make of this. And if I enjoy it this much, I can't come whining at them as if I'm entitled. We all knew it wasn't finished when we bought it. If we want to see it be the best game possible, we gotta support it. If all we do is point out every fault petulantly, they're gonna focus on pleasing the small mass of backers and not the masses it was meant for.  

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46 minutes ago, Lenny Lettuce Lips said:

 If all we do is point out every fault petulantly, they're gonna focus on pleasing the small mass of backers and not the masses it was meant for.  

As an "oldie" I can tell you... they don't! Or at least only when they would have done something about it anyways. TFPs have always done what they think is best.
On the one hand that is good, for obvious reasons. On the other hand, ignoring feedback in an alpha game is less than mediocre.
But don't worry about them "trying to appease the smallest common denominator" that won't ever happen! 😝

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56 minutes ago, Lenny Lettuce Lips said:

A lot of the oldies seem to be burning out on the fact that it's still trapped in alpha. Years later. A sentiment I can appreciate. A lot of the newer guys seem to be really enjoying the game, and they've gone out of their way to get on this forum about it. 

That's not exactly it.... the problem, if you want to call it that, is that the game has really changed focus over the years.   Originally, in the earlier alphas, the game was more focused on the survival aspects while the later alphas are more focused on RPG.   Many of the older players were attracted to the game for the survival aspects and some don't like the direction the game has taken.... so they're opinions/suggestions are aimed at bringing the game back to that point.

 

So I don't believe its anything personal or intentionally directed at new players, it's just a consequence of where the game was and where it is now.

 

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22 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

 On the other hand, ignoring feedback in an alpha game is less than mediocre.

It's less "ignoring feedback" and more "not acting on every bit of feedback/wish". ;)

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6 hours ago, Kalen said:

That's not exactly it.... the problem, if you want to call it that, is that the game has really changed focus over the years.   Originally, in the earlier alphas, the game was more focused on the survival aspects while the later alphas are more focused on RPG.   Many of the older players were attracted to the game for the survival aspects and some don't like the direction the game has taken.... so they're opinions/suggestions are aimed at bringing the game back to that point.

 

So I don't believe its anything personal or intentionally directed at new players, it's just a consequence of where the game was and where it is now.

 

I can appreciate that for sure. I joined right as A17 became stable and I started playing that mode instead of A16, which is apparently the gold standard. I have maybe three hours of A16 under my belt, and I personally never understood why it was so well revered but maybe one day I'll do a time travel game and just play A16 for a few waves to see what the fuss was about.

5 hours ago, Gazz said:

It's less "ignoring feedback" and more "not acting on every bit of feedback/wish". ;)

Yeah, I've noticed everyone has a thing they wanna see and they get pretty serious about it. The most I scoff at is the constant cries for more "immersion" or "lifelike" type adjustments. I can carry like six tons of rocks in my bag, there's nothing realistic about it, hahaha. I'm just happy my recommendation actually made it into the game (lockpicks). Now I'm waiting to see if they'll add the ability to work on doors

 

 

6 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

As an "oldie" I can tell you... they don't! Or at least only when they would have done something about it anyways. TFPs have always done what they think is best.
On the one hand that is good, for obvious reasons. On the other hand, ignoring feedback in an alpha game is less than mediocre.
But don't worry about them "trying to appease the smallest common denominator" that won't ever happen! 😝

I don't know if they outright ignore the feedback so much as don't always say "ya'll said this so we're doing it". A lot of it seems to be implemented in the game and sometimes adjusted or shaved off. 

 

edit- didn't know it was going to be merging the replies

Edited by Lenny Lettuce Lips (see edit history)

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Every new version there's a post from somebody who wants to go back the old version. when I started back in alpha 7, the first post I saw was from somebody wanting to go back to six, lol.

 

The only thing they took away a long time ago that I miss to this day is my ability to run over crawlers on my motorcycle or mini bike. It was so much fun I would stop after a miss, turn around and get everything aligned for a headshot.

 

People would use this mechanic to hunt with and I don't blame them.

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I think the root of the problem is that a large majority of the gaming community is used to see an Assassin's Creed or a Call of Duty come out every year (and we've seen its not always a good thing). Therefore, a game that's been in developement for 7 years is "outrageous". They either are too stubborn or cant compute that its a small team who develop such a monumental world, where everything is destructible and where there's thousands upon thousands of interactions possible, between so many elements, that it results into being a colossal task of putting everything together in a well oiled, cohesive machine, which will take several years.

 

Just look at Rockstar, for instance. They have several hundreds of people in the place, they are multi-BILLIONAIRE, and they still take about 5-6 years to make a GTA iteration. Looking back at the Pimps who are 7 years into making a huge game, which is now well-playable, with a fraction of the staff Rockstar has, i think its a pretty impressive feat and i can only support them all the way because of this.

 

Its all a matter of stopping being entitled, pulling your head out of your ass and putting things into perspective.

Edited by Kyonshi (see edit history)
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55 minutes ago, Lenny Lettuce Lips said:

The most I scoff at is the constant cries for more "immersion" or "lifelike" type adjustments. I can carry like six tons of rocks in my bag, there's nothing realistic about it, hahaha.

I did the math once. With concrete you can carry about 2x the mass of the Titanic. =P

(which got immersed pretty well)

Edited by Gazz (see edit history)
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7 hours ago, Kalen said:

That's not exactly it.... the problem, if you want to call it that, is that the game has really changed focus over the years.   Originally, in the earlier alphas, the game was more focused on the survival aspects while the later alphas are more focused on RPG.   

I may not have been around long enough to notice this but what "survival aspects." For me, food and water have become more relevant since I started playing (A15). I know there have been a lot of complaints about the simplification or change in game systems (sticks, iron ore, gun parts, LBD, etc.) but I don't see those as survival aspects. What I have seen is a lot of complaints about hunger, thirst, and healing being too difficult from about A17 onwards.

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2 minutes ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

I may not have been around long enough to notice this but what "survival aspects." For me, food and water have become more relevant since I started playing (A15). I know there have been a lot of complaints about the simplification or change in game systems (sticks, iron ore, gun parts, LBD, etc.) but I don't see those as survival aspects. What I have seen is a lot of complaints about hunger, thirst, and healing being too difficult from about A17 onwards.

Ok, call it what you will.... my point, regardless of labels, was that the game's focus has clearly changed over the years.

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10 hours ago, Kalen said:

Ok, call it what you will.... my point, regardless of labels, was that the game's focus has clearly changed over the years.

A good example of a focus change: Up until maybe A12(?) (EDIT: It seems it was A10 according to Roland) there was no RPG type progression in the game for example (so I've heard). Your progress was only defined by what you carried, i.e. by your equipment.

 

Now RPG was promised on the kickstarter so it can't be said that they changed their minds. Inside TFP it looked like just another missing part was added. But to some people outside it might have looked like TFP changed their mind and adopted a new idea.

 

The gradual change between LBD and perk-based system between A15 and A17 on the other hand seems to have been prototyping of different systems until TFP was satisfied with one, an example of changing their mind.

 

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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8 hours ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

I may not have been around long enough to notice this but what "survival aspects." For me, food and water have become more relevant since I started playing (A15). I know there have been a lot of complaints about the simplification or change in game systems (sticks, iron ore, gun parts, LBD, etc.) but I don't see those as survival aspects. What I have seen is a lot of complaints about hunger, thirst, and healing being too difficult from about A17 onwards.

I feel like the hunger system has been tweaked because I get hungry a LOT more now. I used to trash seeds and survive of a cholesterol laden diet of bacon and eggs and whatever food I found. Now I treasure dang near every seed and bust my hump to get rotten meat for farm plots. I kinda dig it, as food in long term is basically the make or break in a apocalypse. 

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I've been around since A14.7, not sure if that constitutes me as an "oldie" or not. 

I personally love the direction the game is going and have no real complaints myself. 

 

I was definitely a fan of the learn by doing system but after reading about the exploits, I see why they took it out. I'd say that's the only thing I miss but I'm totally fine with the perk system how it is now.

 

Love the new zombies, vehicles, all the new points of interest they come up with, no more gun parts (I hated this system).

I love it all & am a huge fan. 

Edited by Outlaw_187 (see edit history)

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who remembers making molds of the gun parts with clay in the forge and just making boxes full of guns. I forget what alpha that was but it was very early on. maybe alpha 6. 

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Back in the day we could also "steal" loot containers and/or build them in our base and would get regular loot respawn from like 30 private gun safes.

Ah, the olden days! =P

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18 minutes ago, Gazz said:

Back in the day we could also "steal" loot containers and/or build them in our base and would get regular loot respawn from like 30 private gun safes.

Ah, the olden days! =P

those were the days lol

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On 9/24/2020 at 2:53 AM, Lenny Lettuce Lips said:

I enjoy the hell out of this game. To me, it scratches an itch that a lot of similar games can't, and I enjoy that. I've gotten more than my money's worth

I think I'm middle-aged in 7D2D years; Steam sez: 2561.2 hours + another 2K on console (A15-ish). And I just want to say, PREACH IT BROTHER! This game and Minecraft scratch similar itches for me. I like a nice GTA/Division/Oblivion/Braid/Peggle/Forza etc. etc. etc. as much as the next guy, but 7D2D and MC are the only two that I've put thousands of hours into*. I guess I've got "sandbox brain" or something. Funny I grew up spending summer near the ocean but didn't actually play much with building in the sand...

 

*Rock Band might be pretty close - many house parties focused on that game, in the Before Times when I could share air space with other people

 

3 hours ago, Gazz said:

Back in the day we could also "steal" loot containers and/or build them in our base and would get regular loot respawn from like 30 private gun safes.

That sounds amazing. Plz bring bak ok thx bye.

Edited by Boidster (see edit history)

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5 hours ago, Boidster said:

I think I'm middle-aged in 7D2D years; Steam sez: 2561.2 hours + another 2K on console (A15-ish). And I just want to say, PREACH IT BROTHER! This game and Minecraft scratch similar itches for me. I like a nice GTA/Division/Oblivion/Braid/Peggle/Forza etc. etc. etc. as much as the next guy, but 7D2D and MC are the only two that I've put thousands of hours into*. I guess I've got "sandbox brain" or something. Funny I grew up spending summer near the ocean but didn't actually play much with building in the sand...

 

*Rock Band might be pretty close - many house parties focused on that game, in the Before Times when I could share air space with other people

 

That sounds amazing. Plz bring bak ok thx bye.

I have been on Minecraft since the super early beta when zombies dropped feathers. I go through phases where I'll play it for a hundred hours and need a break for like a year. Then I'll be like "Hm, I wanna listen to that music again". (Nether music is the best, fight me).

Skyrim, Counterstrike and a handful of other games have as much time as I've put into this game. I think I'm sitting at like 400+ hours currently, and the overwhelming majority has been solo. I've really enjoyed having my friends play with me though, it really changes the feel. I can't sneak anymore though, they're like elephants. 

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32 minutes ago, Lenny Lettuce Lips said:

I have been on Minecraft since the super early beta when zombies dropped feathers. I go through phases where I'll play it for a hundred hours and need a break for like a year. Then I'll be like "Hm, I wanna listen to that music again". (Nether music is the best, fight me).

Skyrim, Counterstrike and a handful of other games have as much time as I've put into this game. I think I'm sitting at like 400+ hours currently, and the overwhelming majority has been solo. I've really enjoyed having my friends play with me though, it really changes the feel. I can't sneak anymore though, they're like elephants. 

I love minecraft, but if it wasn't for the vast number of mods available, I probably would've stopped playing a while ago.   The number and variety of mods is so staggering that any particular modpack can completely change the game.

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On 9/24/2020 at 7:05 PM, Kosmic Kerman said:

What I have seen is a lot of complaints about hunger, thirst, and healing being too difficult from about A17 onwards.

Stamina management, hunger, thirst, death penalty etc etc have all been balanced since A17 and made relevant up to a (small) point. Item economy is still for laughs, but hey it's an alpha. Wellness was a great concept but it meant nothing as long as it didn't really matter how much health you had with people using glass to move around more easily.

 

Anyway, imo, all those changes don't mean much for a survival game when its systems, little by little, start reminiscing a tired mmo and I doubt those remaining will appreciate them. For example chipping off the importance of RNG and subsequently exploration, with any impactful recipes going away and (much later) being substituted by much weaker incentives (books) as an attempt to revive exploration. Fixed milestones solely governed by level and environment scaling, predictable outcomes/rewards from repeatable quests or dungeon POIs with loot rooms. Current item economy exacerbates these and players' actions are more about "getting that xp for the next tier of items", frantically looting parts or selling, rather than governed by their survival needs and slowly improving their QOL or taking decisions, which could have been the case if TFP's direction was different, I guess, who knows.

 

 

Edited by RestInPieces (see edit history)

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On 9/24/2020 at 10:44 AM, Gazz said:

I did the math once. With concrete you can carry about 2x the mass of the Titanic. =P

(which got immersed pretty well)

Although I prefer good immersion, there's also the 'How many jeeps can I shove into my inventory' thing to bring me back into the reality of the game.

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On 9/24/2020 at 1:31 PM, meganoth said:

The gradual change between LBD and perk-based system between A15 and A17 on the other hand seems to have been prototyping of different systems until TFP was satisfied with one, an example of changing their mind.

The weird thing is that back in A16 you had both of those and it felt AMAZING. You could do LBD while also perking it up. I miss it so much.. and I understand there were lots of exploits like mass crafting.. but I wish they would bring it back in some instance.. maybe replace LBD with a mastery system for actions only (like mining, beating or shooting zombies) and all it would do is increase your damage slightly on headshots or against blocks.. maybe up to 10% chance of dismemberment.

Realistically, I understand that the skill cap should be focused on the player over the character ((you get better at the game = you hit more headshots because practice)... but damn, it felt so nice having progression and evolution in your character...

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