Should T6 tier even exist?

[Ezed]

  

1 hour ago, alanea said:

well single  point in miner /weapon  gives you  more damage/block damage than 1 quality level  regardles of what you using .... even with q6 so those points are never wasted ... actually miner69er is strongest perk for building..  and quite valueble even if you just break doors/safes .... weapon perk damage is great as well ... so even if you never craft one you didnt wasted anything  quality  is  just bonus added to existing perk

 

 

Thanks for your viewpoint.  It's different than mine and that's ok.

10 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

Nit picking. Either top-end stuff is craftable or not. Doesn't matter if you call it legendary, T6, purple... oh i guess i already stated that...

 

Sounds more like they could be any Level and any Tier...which leads me to believe they will have some magical buffs making them 'Legendary'...but not necessarily always 'Top Tier'.

 

LOL Where's Roland...all of these comments on Legendary should be moved TO the Dev Diary

 

 

[Liesel Weppen]

29 minutes ago, Ezed said:

Sounds more like they could be any Level and any Tier...which leads me to believe they will have some magical buffs making them 'Legendary'...but not necessarily always 'Top Tier'

What?

I'm not sure i understand what you mean?

Once there is something potentially better you can only loot but not craft ALWAYS somebody will complain about he can not craft it. No matter how you call it.

I also don't know what particular T6 items people have looted so far, but for my case, some T6 was even worse than my T5 stuff. If at all t6 was better, than just because of the additional mod slot, but even with that most T6 was still worse.

I still use a t5 pump gun, because even t6 found auto shotgun is worse for my particular use. I prefer max damage per shot, increased magazine size by lower damage per shot doesn't help that. But it might for people that do more spray and pray...

[Ezed]

3 hours ago, madmole said:

Both. Legendary might come in all qualities so people experience them and have some meaningful choices to make... Do I ditch this brown iron legedary for a green non legendary? The top ranges will always be non craftable.

@Liesel Weppen

MM mentions a brown iron legendary...so a level 2, tier 2 Legendary item.  So, a legendary L2T2 would not be top tier.  That's all I was saying.  

 

 

[Roland]

However the heck it turns out it seems that not being able to craft the best of the best is overwhelmingly acknowledged by the community to be the right move. Can we get a "TFP listens to the players" HUZZAH!!!!!

[Kalen]

7 hours ago, Boidster said:

In other words Legendary is a tier, not a quality. I assume Legendary tier items will probably not be craftable at any quality? I hope not anyhow...how is it "legendary" if stupid ol' me can make one at my makeshift workbench?

 

As a crafter myself, I think the highest-quality (non-Legendary) items should only be craftable by stupid ol' me on my makeshift workbench, but I will sit here in my wrongness. 😔

I wouldn't say legendary is a tier.... it sounds more like exceptional versions of existing items of any tier or quality.

[Solomon]

23 hours ago, Kalen said:

This is just another way to ask "should the highest quality be craftable?"  TFP have pretty much already answered this question:  No.

 

Let's say TFP think you're right and remove quality 6..... then they'll make quality 5 uncraftable.   Odds are good that when legendary items are added, quality 6 will be craftable again.

Not really, i think it shouldnt exist at all.

 

Like in its current form an uncraftable higher level gear what invalidates crafting should not exist.

[Kalen]

2 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Not really, i think it shouldnt exist at all.

 

Like in its current form an uncraftable higher level gear what invalidates crafting should not exist.

Of course it's the same thing.... if quality 6 didn't exist then quality 5, which is craftable, would be the highest quality.  You are asking for the highest quality gear to be craftable.   It's been brought up over and over again, and TFP have said no.... they want the highest quality gear to be looted not crafted.

 

I don't see how that philosophy invalidates crafting.   I'm on day 62 in my current game and have crafted tons of equipment.... many of which I still use.   

[Solomon]

14 hours ago, Laz Man said:

OP, have you actually experienced what your concerned about or is it mostly just what if / theoycrafting?

Theorycrafting mostly, i play on a modded game so what i see is different from what everybody else sees by default.

 

I really dont like the idea that there is a quality level superior to everything what you can craft out in the world i dont mind that certain items are loot only (thought i believe that these should be taken a look again on what is and what is not craftableable like spring VS m60).

 

I wont gonna mind if TFP introduces legendary unique pistols what came with interesting extras but i wont be happy if it all boils down to "this is just T7 equipment".

[Solomon]

5 minutes ago, Kalen said:

Of course it's the same thing.... if quality 6 didn't exist then quality 5, which is craftable, would be the highest quality.  You are asking for the highest quality gear to be craftable.   It's been brought up over and over again, and TFP have said no.... they want the highest quality gear to be looted not crafted.

 

I don't see how that philosophy invalidates crafting.   I'm on day 62 in my current game and have crafted tons of equipment.... many of which I still use.   

Its a bit stretch but i can see what you mean so i try a different approach:

 

I dont mind if there is unique variants of equipment around us as long as they are not just some "extra stats and thats it". T6 in its current form is nothing but a statboost to your regular equipment aka same pistol but better in all aspects.

 

For example look at Taza's stone axe, it could be the T6 stone axe as its an unique variant of the common tool. Slightly better stats with an "unique" look, for all the equipment the same can be done that T6 items are not just in general a clear upgrade but more like an unique variant like imagine a "Handyman Wrench" what has the same stats as the normal wrench with an unique hidden modifier that it generates +1 bonus materials randomly.

[Kalen]

34 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Its a bit stretch but i can see what you mean so i try a different approach:

 

I dont mind if there is unique variants of equipment around us as long as they are not just some "extra stats and thats it". T6 in its current form is nothing but a statboost to your regular equipment aka same pistol but better in all aspects.

 

For example look at Taza's stone axe, it could be the T6 stone axe as its an unique variant of the common tool. Slightly better stats with an "unique" look, for all the equipment the same can be done that T6 items are not just in general a clear upgrade but more like an unique variant like imagine a "Handyman Wrench" what has the same stats as the normal wrench with an unique hidden modifier that it generates +1 bonus materials randomly.

Ok, I see what you're getting at.... but you could say the same thing about all the quality levels.   Each is nothing more than a "statboost" from the preceding level.  What you're describing sounds exactly like what I believe is the plan for legendary items... so you'll get your more interesting items eventually.   But that doesn't make Q6 items something that should be removed, IMO.

[Viktoriusiii]

Voted "yes", but i do agree that T6 is still much MUCH to easy to find.
If you have more than one legendary after 100 hours of gameplay, it is, in my opionion, too much.
Should it be better than anything you can craft? Yes. Defniatly.
Should it maybe even have unique effects like setting enemies ablaze or something? That would be cool.

What I do not agree with is the rate at which you get them.
Ever since "that time"

Spoiler

and by that time I obviously mean A17

loot has been very much off balance. They are trying to fix this. And I really like that day 4 I still often use my trusted blunderbuss (props to you TFPs), but quality escalates way too quickly. And therefor T6 as well.

If you had to craft everything, but you found that one legendary pistol and that one legendary military helmet that you didn't need to craft anymore, because you know they are the best, would you have a problem with that? I do not think so.
I think what you have a problem with (correct me if im wrong) is, that T6 makes crafting useless very quickly. If the drop rate for T6 was handled better, i dont think you would mind all that much!

[Tehnomaag]

"Other option"

 

I'm not a fan of there being a "magical" tier of equipment of which we can already make ourselves. It is OK for them to be loot-only, but it should not be exactly the same thing you can already do, it should be a pre-apocalypse artifact. Meaning that you would not be able to produce that kind of stuff at all on your own. So instead of "stone axe" you should fin a pre-apocalypse "survival axe" of the highest quality, as an example. 

[Vampirenostra]

3 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Voted "yes", but i do agree that T6 is still much MUCH to easy to find.
If you have more than one legendary after 100 hours of gameplay, it is, in my opionion, too much.
Should it be better than anything you can craft? Yes. Defniatly.
Should it maybe even have unique effects like setting enemies ablaze or something? That would be cool.

What I do not agree with is the rate at which you get them.
Ever since "that time"

  Hide contents

and by that time I obviously mean A17

loot has been very much off balance. They are trying to fix this. And I really like that day 4 I still often use my trusted blunderbuss (props to you TFPs), but quality escalates way too quickly. And therefor T6 as well.

If you had to craft everything, but you found that one legendary pistol and that one legendary military helmet that you didn't need to craft anymore, because you know they are the best, would you have a problem with that? I do not think so.
I think what you have a problem with (correct me if im wrong) is, that T6 makes crafting useless very quickly. If the drop rate for T6 was handled better, i dont think you would mind all that much!

Great answer! T6 should be really hard to find and obtain. It is way too fast and way to easy to loot all sorts of items now including T6.

And I don't really like the way we loot now in places of interest like ToolShops and GunMessiah.... Even if im level 1 going there should provide me with some at least iron tools! Make it hard to beat the dead out of there, but loot should be a reward! Maybe there should be a way for pois to have some loot differentiation by poi type? Like in ToolShop you're more likely to find metal tools and in in weapon shops some weapons, especially in sealed safes! Maybe you can seal them with better locks, so early game players can not open them or need some perks in lock picking? Whatever, finding stone tools in tool shop looks weird...

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Voted "yes", but i do agree that T6 is still much MUCH to easy to find.
If you have more than one legendary after 100 hours of gameplay, it is, in my opionion, too much.
Should it be better than anything you can craft? Yes. Defniatly.
Should it maybe even have unique effects like setting enemies ablaze or something? That would be cool.

What I do not agree with is the rate at which you get them.
Ever since "that time"

  Reveal hidden contents

and by that time I obviously mean A17

loot has been very much off balance. They are trying to fix this. And I really like that day 4 I still often use my trusted blunderbuss (props to you TFPs), but quality escalates way too quickly. And therefor T6 as well.

If you had to craft everything, but you found that one legendary pistol and that one legendary military helmet that you didn't need to craft anymore, because you know they are the best, would you have a problem with that? I do not think so.
I think what you have a problem with (correct me if im wrong) is, that T6 makes crafting useless very quickly. If the drop rate for T6 was handled better, i dont think you would mind all that much!

Agree as well. Q6 should be very seldom and that includes Q6 of lower tiers, especially T0 (note I switched to calling it quality because I need to talk about the tiers as well). Right now T0 Q6 stone tools and weapons are so good that they rival T1 Q3 tools and weapons (may be somewhat different since the last patch). If the Q6 stone axe is an exception most people will already look at the Q3 iron axe as a replacement instead of Q4. This sounds small but makes 66% of iron age relevant instead of only 50%. I.e. reduces the overlap quite perceptibly

 

 

[Blake_]

13 hours ago, Roland said:

However the heck it turns out it seems that not being able to craft the best of the best is overwhelmingly acknowledged by the community to be the right move. Can we get a "TFP listens to the players" HUZZAH!!!!!

I agree though. I also support your trolling whenever it happens. It could be called at least a Q6 Legendary trolling weapon.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Blake_ said:

I agree though. I also support your trolling whenever it happens. It could be called at least a Q6 Legendary trolling weapon.

The whole premise of “If feature _________ isn’t going to be implemented exactly the way I like it, then it should be removed entirely” is ridiculous. Someone said the same thing about Stealth over on the other thread. It is a ridiculous stance to take. Thankfully, I’m clearly not the only one around here who strives to hold onto the baby when getting rid of the bath water. 
 

5 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Voted "yes", but i do agree that T6 is still much MUCH to easy to find.
If you have more than one legendary after 100 hours of gameplay, it is, in my opionion, too much.
Should it be better than anything you can craft? Yes. Defniatly.
Should it maybe even have unique effects like setting enemies ablaze or something? That would be cool.

What I do not agree with is the rate at which you get them.
Ever since "that time"

  Reveal hidden contents

and by that time I obviously mean A17

loot has been very much off balance. They are trying to fix this. And I really like that day 4 I still often use my trusted blunderbuss (props to you TFPs), but quality escalates way too quickly. And therefor T6 as well.

If you had to craft everything, but you found that one legendary pistol and that one legendary military helmet that you didn't need to craft anymore, because you know they are the best, would you have a problem with that? I do not think so.
I think what you have a problem with (correct me if im wrong) is, that T6 makes crafting useless very quickly. If the drop rate for T6 was handled better, i dont think you would mind all that much!

Agree 100%. Take your umbrella out today because pig @%$# will be falling.

 

You should get maybe 3-4 pieces tops of T6 gear in any given play through and T0 items should be capped at Q4 or Q5 but probably Q4
 

If not, then all gear should be removed from the game entirely....

[Boidster]

13 hours ago, Kalen said:

I wouldn't say legendary is a tier.... it sounds more like exceptional versions of existing items of any tier or quality.

Yeah, if it wasn't a slip of the tongue fingers, the "Legendary iron brown item" from MM is a tell that "Legendary" could be just an overlay on top of the existing item sets. I guess we already had Taza's Stone Axe so the idea of a legendary primitive item isn't really new. It'll be interesting to see what they come up with.

 

It's definitely not a quality level above Q6; that was my main point since the original discussion was about whether Q6 should exist and if they add Legendary then what does that mean for Q6 etc. I was trying to nitpick point out that "Legendary" and "Quality" are orthogonal to each other, not points on the same axis. I guess the loot system could be going 3D: tier, quality, legendary-or-not. Meaning I guess we will need VR goggles to visualize it properly and the obvious conclusion is that Madmole has confirmed 7D2D VR for Alpha 20!

[warmer]

Tier 6 makes sense to me because there should be a level above what you can craft on your own given the lack of super high end manufacturing tools.

If you can go to a Shotgun Messiah and use their workbench then I can understand tier 6 crafting. But user made workbenches just don't have the ability to craft at that level of refinement.

Maybe we need a new tier of work bench?

[Tourist]

10 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Should it maybe even have unique effects like setting enemies ablaze or something? That would be cool.
 

Hell no.  Keep the enchanted weapons in fantasy games where they belong.

[Boidster]

3 minutes ago, Tourist said:

Hell no.  Keep the enchanted weapons in fantasy games where they belong.

Err...Burning Shaft Mod? Why not a legendary item that essentially comes with a built-in Burning Shaft effect? Does not require "enchanted" items.

[Tourist]

1 minute ago, Boidster said:

Err...Burning Shaft Mod? Why not a legendary item that essentially comes with a built-in Burning Shaft effect? Does not require "enchanted" items.

Adding fire to your axe is a simple as wrapping it in oil soaked cloth for example.  A gun that fires flaming bullets or some other such nonsense shouldn't even be considered, imo.

[Roland]

Weapons with the burning shaft mod don't look like they were wrapped in oil soaked cloth. They look like fantasy weapons. I had a spear with burning shaft and my wife (who does not play) glanced over and asked what game I was playing. When I told her she asked, "They have magic stuff in that game?"

 

My point is that the burning shaft mod makes weapons look like magic flame weapons but you came up with an explanation to make it realistic and just ignore the appearance. The same could be done for pretty much any legendary enhancement that might seem magical on the surface.

[Tourist]

5 minutes ago, Roland said:

Weapons with the burning shaft mod don't look like they were wrapped in oil soaked cloth. They look like fantasy weapons. I had a spear with burning shaft and my wife (who does not play) glanced over and asked what game I was playing. When I told her she asked, "They have magic stuff in that game?"

 

My point is that the burning shaft mod makes weapons look like magic flame weapons but you came up with an explanation to make it realistic and just ignore the appearance. The same could be done for pretty much any legendary enhancement that might seem magical on the surface.

Yes, i choose to ignore the appearance (or lack thereof) of a reason for my melee weapons to be on fire.  I figure they haven't had time to model in the appearance.  Again, it's what's reasonable to expect a weapon to be able to do vs some arbitrary "enchantment" that makes a gun shoot magick bullets.   

 

Personally, i think the fire on melee weapons shouldn't be an "always on" thing.  It should have to be reapplied.

 

[Viktoriusiii]

7 hours ago, Roland said:

The whole premise of “If feature _________ isn’t going to be implemented exactly the way I like it, then it should be removed entirely” is ridiculous.

Although... not to be a stick in the mud... that is what TFPs did quite a lotin their history. "The System that shall never be named again" was just better than what we had now, but it had some designflaws that could have been ironed out, but was scrapped altogether. And I am ashamed to admit, but i forgot the others. I know there were a lot of examples... but ever since I withdrew from avtive 7D2D it just isn't on my mind anymore :'D

Point beeing: I just hope your view leaks through and they wont just scrap and redo systems over and over and over again

[AtomicUs5000]

Short answer... sure.
My decision comes down to as long as there are enough mods for enough items to justify more tiers, then why not? It could be 10 quality tiers, but that wouldn't mean much if the max stats remains the same. The only difference would be the size of the intervals of likely stats for each tier.