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Why are the devs screwing over agi/stealth in their POI design?

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9 hours ago, meganoth said:

My conclusion is that you must have had exceptionally bad luck

This must consistently extend to my looting since I have yet to find a Q1 or higher pistol in my solo saves. My wife found one in our co-op game and that is actually the first time I've encountered one since A19 went stable. I'd also scrapped the truck so that wasn't an option even if I'd been able to get back into the garage...

9 hours ago, meganoth said:

2) The zombies were somehow aggroed when you got past a specific point directly before the stairs, not when you entered the blue area

I was "crabwalking" to my left after breaking the noise trap when they broke out, is there a possibility my character "kicked" the door frame? "Kick" as in how when you walk close to walls sometimes the players footsteps sound like they walking on the material that the wall is made of instead of the ground they're actually on. Iirc metal "ground" makes more noise than dirt, grass, gravel or concrete.

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33 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

This must consistently extend to my looting since I have yet to find a Q1 or higher pistol in my solo saves. My wife found one in our co-op game and that is actually the first time I've encountered one since A19 went stable. I'd also scrapped the truck so that wasn't an option even if I'd been able to get back into the garage...

 

As long as you are not telling what level and gamestage you have I can only nod symapthetically 😉. Are you deliberatly ignoring the trader and quests even in later stages? Because there is no chance in hell you can't equalize such bad luck with a quest reward or a buy. There is no reason to need a pistol in the stone age to deal with 2 basic zombies and once you are in iron age not even the knowledge of imba traders should prevent you from simply buying a cheap tier 1 weapon or better

 

If you scrapped the truck you probably also scrapped the workstation at the wall? That might also be a stepping stone to get out.

 

Quote

I was "crabwalking" to my left after breaking the noise trap when they broke out, is there a possibility my character "kicked" the door frame? "Kick" as in how when you walk close to walls sometimes the players footsteps sound like they walking on the material that the wall is made of instead of the ground they're actually on. Iirc metal "ground" makes more noise than dirt, grass, gravel or concrete.

 

If the zombies are already aware of you I don't think this would be relevant anymore. Possibly a test with throwing stones at the distand wall immediately after they broke out of their windows might show if a stealther might have an option without first running out of range

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, meganoth said:

As long as you are not telling what level and gamestage you have were I can only nod symapthetically

I deleted the game save not long after that event. Lets just say the feeling it caused was too familiar... I do remember I hadn't run into loot from Iron tier yet other than the knife I'd crafted, I was searching for parts to put together a replacement for my prim bow. Iirc build when I went into there was first 4 into agil, then 2 into bows, 2 knives, 3 (max at that level of agil) into FTS. Also had the second tier of the farming perks. (Part of the reason it ticks me off to no end when people start making suggestions that require 30-40 levels and a few weeks worth of game time to get to.) If it matters, was playing on Navezgane.

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41 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

I deleted the game save not long after that event. Lets just say the feeling it caused was too familiar... I do remember I hadn't run into loot from Iron tier yet other than the knife I'd crafted, I was searching for parts to put together a replacement for my prim bow. Iirc build when I went into there was first 4 into agil, then 2 into bows, 2 knives, 3 (max at that level of agil) into FTS. Also had the second tier of the farming perks. (Part of the reason it ticks me off to no end when people start making suggestions that require 30-40 levels and a few weeks worth of game time to get to.) If it matters, was playing on Navezgane.

Looks like you were about level 10 then and since iron age loot doesn't start to appear until game stage 11+, your game stage should be high enough for it. As game stage is days lived plus the level your at. However in my experience most of the good iron age loot doesn't really appear until game stage is 20 to 30+ out side the rare chance for it.

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3 minutes ago, Danidas said:

Looks like you were about level 10 then and since iron age loot doesn't start to appear until game stage 11+, your game stage should be high enough for it. As game stage is days lived plus the level your at. However in my experience most of the good iron age loot doesn't really appear until game stage is 20 to 30+ out side the rare chance for it.

In my experience most of the iron age loot doesn't pop up consistently till GS/LS 30-40. A part or two here or there before then, but usually for a tool or weapon that doesn't benefit from your perk allocation, which sort-of makes sense with how much sits in the loot table. But it feels awkward when you're looting your 10th or 15th baton, turret or bat part and you're spec'd for bows, pistols or rifles.

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11 hours ago, Jenshae said:

I guess it is time to figure out how to make a mod to break these auto-aggro volumes as step 1

Easy peasy. Go through all <poi name>.xml files under /prefabs and in these lines:

<property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,0,0,0,2,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2,0,0,2,0,0,0,2,2,0,0,0" />

Change all of the 2s to 0s. That will change any "Attack" volumes to "Active". Or change them to 1 ("passive") for a true carebear experience. Here I am crouched down at the Red Mesa vault room, with a bunch of stealth-killable zombies. No surprises, no threat to a high-stealth player.

 

image.png.d585d67cd554a4a6c2c4adf2569bdeea.png

 

Edit to add: if this is doable in a modlet, it's beyond my skills. I was able to get the game to load up a mod which was designed to alter installation_red_mesa.xml, but it did not actually change the auto-aggro volumes. Only manually editing the XML file worked. Of course a robust text processor like sed/awk could fix all the XML files at once for you, if you're into that kind of thing. Otherwise, just hand-edit all 500 POIs and you'll have 100% stealth-able kills everywhere you go.

Edited by Boidster (see edit history)
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Just now, Boidster said:

No surprises, no threat

and no fun!

 

I kid, I kid

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So for added fun change all the 0s and 1s to 2 so that every sleeper volume is auto aggro.

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18 hours ago, Danidas said:

So for added fun change all the 0s and 1s to 2 so that every sleeper volume is auto aggro.

Are you melee, machine gun or shotgun? 🤪

Edited by Jenshae (see edit history)

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41 minutes ago, Jenshae said:

Are you melee, machine gun or shotgun? 🤪

Nope a Agility Intellect build aka the worst combo to deal with tougher POIs. However my Stun Baton does go brrrrrrr 🌩️🤪

 

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Sneak is worthless because of the ambush mechanic. The only way to counter this garbage is to know every POI and cheese the @%$# out of it. It isn't fun, it isn't entertaining, it is quite lousy design.

 

What is wrong with stealthing through a mission and thinking? Run and gun is the only way to play this game tier 4-5 quests.

 

I play on Insane, Always Nightmare, Dead is dead, blood moon 64. I can survive until tier 5 missions, and I can continue to survive if I cheese them all by breaking a wall and throwing grenades. However, why do the developers think this is a fun way to play? Do they lack the comprehension to provide actually fun quests that take tactics and strategy and not just cheese? Light armor is worthless since you take so much damage and stealth doesn't do a damn thing. You are completely pigeonholed in this game and it is sad.

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1 hour ago, Lesdeth said:

Sneak is worthless...

You're options are...

Don't perk into it.

Reduce your difficulty

GG

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4 minutes ago, Ezed said:

You're options are...

Don't perk into it.

Reduce your difficulty

GG

Yes, don't perk into it. That is the only option at the moment and that is what I think is sad about this game... There is only run and gun. I have no issues with my difficulty. I dislike being pigeonholed into run and gun cheesing... It would be much more interesting to rely on tactics and forethought with POIs instead of running into ambushes constantly...

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Posted (edited)

Stealth is far from useless. There is a ton of POI´s where you can stealth all the time. I play an agility build atm and stealth saves me a ton of ammo. Sure some POI`s don´t work as a whole, but this isn´t Splinter Cell. Even there you couldn´t stealth everything and those games were all about stealth.

 

I hardly ever run and gun tbh. Mostly because i am in a hurry.

 

It just sucks that stealth doesn´t work for no reason at some places. It´s to arbitrary, there needs to be an indicator why it doesn´t work. Like an alarm that you trigger.

Edited by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

 

5 hours ago, Lesdeth said:

Yes, don't perk into it. That is the only option at the moment and that is what I think is sad about this game... There is only run and gun. I have no issues with my difficulty. I dislike being pigeonholed into run and gun cheesing... It would be much more interesting to rely on tactics and forethought with POIs instead of running into ambushes constantly...

Well, killing every zombie with a headshot from a silenced Vulture while they're just standing there not moving is kind of cheese too.  I think the Devs want you to have to fight your way through some of the POI areas.

You can still stealth a fair bit of POI's right?  At least, I know people can without a single point in Hidden Strike or From the Shadows.  So employ your stealth tactics when you can, but be ready for a fight when that doesn't work.  Variety is the spice of life and gaming.  

You say forethought...but you're (presumably) entering a building you've never entered before...should there be a little box out front with the buildings blueprints available, with the zombies positions marked?  You should be ready for anything....even an ambush...

 

 

Edited by Ezed (see edit history)
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      Stealth is fine, it would be just as boring being able to stealth everything anyway. Most places are easily cleared with only odd rooms giving any real problems. Rubbish in doorways can be axed and one of the books/perks lets you walk over without making noise.

      Trying to rush through pois seems to be the main culprit, yeah there are rooms that auto activate but not overwhelmingly so.Collapsing floors can be dealt with by using frames/plates. Biggest annoyance is damn vultures forever causing bleeds and broken limbs now that mbike no longer outruns them.

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9 hours ago, Lesdeth said:

I play on Insane, Always Nightmare, Dead is dead, blood moon 64. I can survive until tier 5 missions, and I can continue to survive if I cheese them all by breaking a wall and throwing grenades. However, why do the developers think this is a fun way to play? 

You play with very difficult settings.

You complain the only way to survive is cheesing 

You infer from this that the developers intend that you play this way?

 

I think I see your problem....

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Stealth is fine currently, sure you cannot use it everywhere but that is not the point of it in this game. Instead it is simply a tool that can be used to significantly reduce your ammo usage and damage received. Which has the trade off of taking a bit longer and putting you at risk of ambushes. However when used correctly to supplement your play style instead of dominating it, stealth can have a massive impact on your sustainability and survivability.

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5 hours ago, Ezed said:

 

You can still stealth a fair bit of POI's right? 

 

I would say a significant amount. Boidster posted the volume types for Red Mesa, I believe:

On 9/29/2020 at 10:06 AM, Boidster said:

 


<property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,0,0,0,2,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2,0,0,2,0,0,0,2,2,0,0,0" />

 

75% of that POI can be stealthed and only 25% cannot. Now, I could see an argument that a better ratio would result in a 90% 10% split but even at the current ratio I think Stealth can be beneficial and helpful. Not knowing which volumes are 2s and which are 0s requires you to be tense and ready to switch from stealth to something else but I think that enhances the experience. Exploring unknown POIs is always more enjoyable for that reason than ones I am familiar with.

 

Making stealth 100% possible is a mistake and here is why:

 

You are stealthing sleeping enemies so it is almost guaranteed success every single time. You don't have sentries who may discover you and raise an alarm. You don't have moving searchlights or alarm tripping traps (other than trash piles) to remove. The only way to get caught is to miss a hidden sleeper (which ironically is another complaint often raised by stealth players that zombies are hidden in unlikely places). I mean, I can use a machine gun to shoot into a volume I haven't crossed into yet and nothing wakes up. That is how easy "stealth" is in this game and yet there are people who want that everywhere all the time?

 

So if all rooms could be overcome with 100% stealth with no hidden sleepers...would we even have a game involving threat and risk?

 

13 hours ago, Lesdeth said:

I play on Insane, Always Nightmare, Dead is dead, blood moon 64. I can survive until tier 5 missions, and I can continue to survive if I cheese them all by breaking a wall and throwing grenades. However, why do the developers think this is a fun way to play? Do they lack the comprehension to provide actually fun quests that take tactics and strategy and not just cheese? Light armor is worthless since you take so much damage and stealth doesn't do a damn thing. You are completely pigeonholed in this game and it is sad.

You are more skilled than me. How do you know there isn't someone who is more skilled than you? You want things changed to make playing the game at your settings possible without cheesing-- but how do you know that there isn't someone out there who can handle these situations that you can't without cheesing? Your request would ruin the difficulty level they like. When a setting turns out to be too difficult for you, then the appropriate step is to turn down the difficulty to the point that you feel challenged. Too often, people come here and complain about being forced to cheese because the game is "impossible" to play without cheesing. We get that constantly about base design after changes to zombie behavior-- until we don't any more because people have adapted and learned that it isn't actually impossible. Of course some people just find a new cheese tactic because they need that crutch for their skill level at the difficulty they have chosen. 99% of the cases where people feel that cheesing is absolutely necessary can be fixed by reducing the difficulty to a manageable level for that person.

 

Your cheese tactics are your crutch for the difficulty level you've chosen. Either make your peace with the crutch you use and keep your difficulty level or reduce your difficulty level to the point you no longer need your crutch. But don't seek to ruin the difficulty level for those who play it just fine without the need for your particular crutch to make it possible for you.

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1 hour ago, Roland said:

I would say a significant amount. Boidster posted the volume types for Red Mesa, I believe:

Only being able to "like" this post once is not enough.... very well said.

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7 hours ago, Ezed said:

At least, I know people can without a single point in Hidden Strike or From the Shadows.

I've had better success stealthing POIs with a straight Fort build (5 fort, none in the weapons, 2-3 in all of the others in fort, 1 point in Animal Tracker) than with an actual stealth build. Worse out in the open world, but that was expected. Being able to stealth clear places, usually waking up 1 at a time at most when the sneak shot doesn't kill, with nothing invested into it wasn't. I run Prim Bow and Stone Sledge for indoors. Both are silent and the sledge kills using the normal attack in 1-3 swings (even on ferals). Without FTS you move "slower" (cover less distance with each press of the movement keys) which lends to being more alert, aids in distance control (which is very important to not being proximity sensed), increases the time between the "third step" observability spikes, and doesn't have the letdown of perked FTS when it doesn't work. Auto-Aggros are still a thing, but rng has been good to me this time so I have a pistol to help with those (might be confirmation bias, but damn it seems the game adds a negative modifier to the loot rolls for something you're specced for to appear. I've found three this run. 2 at the trader which I couldn't afford and the one I looted and am using).

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Posted (edited)

With all of the responses to my post, I see certain problems. I said tier 4 to 5 missions, which many of them auto aggro most rooms. I have tried stealthing through and it happens a lot. I don't really care about the tier 3 and lower, since you reach tier 4 by like day 15... People talking about using stone tools? You can easily, very easily every game in fact, get iron on day 2 or 3... I have watched many vods and casts of playing with my settings since I was curious how others do it, and it's all cheese, because the game can only be played that way with these settings. So if I want to play on the hardest settings, I can't use tactics and instead HAVE to run and gun just to be able to survive past day 15? Does it take some people a literal year to advance in this game or something? You say it would be boring if you could stealth Every POI, which wasn't my argument. However, what the hell is wrong with having multiple ways to clear a building? I should be pigeonholed for no reason?

 

Should I lower my settings so I can use the terrible light armor and horrible damage of bows with no survivability? That seems quite absurd..

Edited by Lesdeth (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Lesdeth said:

I said tier 4 to 5 missions, which many of them auto aggro most rooms.

I'm pretty sure that Red Mesa is Tier 4

 

I know for a fact that there are zero POI's (other than possibly one of the new firestations) where most of the rooms are set up to auto aggro. As I mentioned to someone else, if they are aggroing then you are failing to stealth in at least some of those cases but that it is possible to do so. The code is proof that most sleeper volumes are active but not auto aggro. That is just a fact looking at the code.

5 hours ago, Lesdeth said:

So if I want to play on the hardest settings, I can't use tactics and instead HAVE to run and gun just to be able to survive past day 15?

YOU do. Doesn't mean others can't use tactics. We are all limited by the level of our skills. If you turned down the difficulty to better match your skill level you could use tactics. Someone else would be able to use tactics at your difficulty level because they have the skills to do so. It's a tough bit of self-awareness and acceptance especially if gamer ego gets in the way.

5 hours ago, Lesdeth said:

However, what the hell is wrong with having multiple ways to clear a building?

Nothing...which is why it can't all be done with stealth. Many areas can be but others will require other methods and collectively that makes "multiple ways". You are the one who is proclaiming that the only way it can be done is run and gun. But you also sound like a speed player. When you play for top efficiency and speed you lock yourself into single pathways. With ambush points in a building you would have to go very slow and always be tense ready to switch tactics. Obviously slow is not your thing so because you like fast, you feel you must run and gun and it is your only option.

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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5 hours ago, Lesdeth said:

With all of the responses to my post, I see certain problems. I said tier 4 to 5 missions, which many of them auto aggro most rooms.

 

There are very few rooms that auto-aggro in t4 and t5 POIs.

 

5 hours ago, Lesdeth said:

 

I have tried stealthing through and it happens a lot. I don't really care about the tier 3 and lower, since you reach tier 4 by like day 15... People talking about using stone tools? You can easily, very easily every game in fact, get iron on day 2 or 3... I have watched many vods and casts of playing with my settings since I was curious how others do it, and it's all cheese, because the game can only be played that way with these settings. So if I want to play on the hardest settings, I can't use tactics and instead HAVE to run and gun just to be able to survive past day 15? Does it take some people a literal year to advance in this game or something? You say it would be boring if you could stealth Every POI, which wasn't my argument. However, what the hell is wrong with having multiple ways to clear a building? I should be pigeonholed for no reason?

 

Should I lower my settings so I can use the terrible light armor and horrible damage of bows with no survivability? That seems quite absurd..

 

That you are very unstealthy in heavy armor is a different matter and surely won't change in the game even if TFP decided that there is some balance problem here. There have to be disadvantages to heavy armor and one is noise. Light armor is in the agility tree for a reason.

 

I don't play on insane, so I don't really know, but have you tried a pistol/desert vulture with silencer (and light armor naturally) ? Maybe not as the opening shot but as finisher?

 

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