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Why are the devs screwing over agi/stealth in their POI design?


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1 hour ago, Kandrathe said:

My own "lore" explanation is close to this because AGI/Stealth is focused on sound.  Humans, and therefore Zombies, have other senses which some feral zombies might react to and alert others.   I have no game mechanic for controlling my scent, for example. 

Exactly.

There is evidence that a dying brain has a short period of heightened brain activity (at least in rats).  So if some zombies are frozen at that state, then they might very well smell or hear the player much better than a living person could.  Sight would be messed up in a dying brain, so it could be the lore why zombies move slower in the daytime.

 

Finding out what is stopping zombies from dying could end up being the main story line.

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23 minutes ago, Aldranon said:

Finding out what is stopping zombies from dying could end up being the main story line.

I'm thinking it is a reaction to massive accumulated aspartame and butylated hydroxy anisole (BHA) or butylated hydroxy toluene (BHT).  🤣

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4 hours ago, Aldranon said:

I'm just talking game fun/excitement here as I don't know any lore that could explain it beside some evil spirit thing and maybe that's what it will be.

 

Back to fun:

-For me, getting hit by an auto-argo room/area is what makes the game exciting as it's the only chance I get to be injured to the point where I have to think fast.  Dog/wolf packs falls into this category.

-I also try to not remember those rooms so it becomes a surprise again (slowly not working).

-If it wasn't for those rooms/events, the game would feel pretty flat and lifeless as most everything else feels too simple. 

-Food, early game, is fun too. 

and for every POI auto aggro problem...

 

492562712_poiproblem.jpg.3914e2d2aae866a533d540a895f8515a.jpg

 

... there is a solution ...

 

solution1.thumb.jpg.44a40a039191c4b7555d8d8513704286.jpgsolution2.jpg.9805321a76858fdfe4095fbbb4f9ccf8.jpg

 

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14 hours ago, meganoth said:

With a good explanation, why not? It would just be a special challenge (in other games it would be called a boss fight).

 

It isn't a challenge. It's just bad design.

 

The example I gave as a comparison is if some rooms set your armor value to zero. Do you think that would be a challenge to plan ahead for, or just nonsensical? 

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14 minutes ago, Yark said:

It isn't a challenge. It's just bad design.

 

The example I gave as a comparison is if some rooms set your armor value to zero. Do you think that would be a challenge to plan ahead for, or just nonsensical? 

I was specifically talking about your example, why do you think I quoted that?

 

I told you it would be nonsensical without an explanation. I specifically said "With a good explanation...". I did not talk about whether such an explanation would be easy or believable.

 

I also said it would be a challenge because suddenly you could not let yourself be hit indefinitely even by a single zombie. In a surprise situation the best way to handle it probably would be to run back to some defensible position far enough away that some zombies have lost your scent. There is also the question whether your armor comes back then (you can get back your stealth in the other situation, can you get back your armor as well?) or you need to kill them all without armor.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

What are you basing this on?  I've seen (admittedly in modded POIs) zombies that were in a "sleeping" state suddenly get up and auto-aggro (and I know they auto-aggroed because they were like 30 blocks away and I had max From The Shadows, all the stealth books and was sneaking.)

 

It's not really a big deal as I don't mind auto-aggro rooms so much (though in late game they make me want to carry a firearm which I don't normally do outside of horde night.)

 

That is from a ton of extensive testing and reverse engineering that occurred in this very thread a long with info from the devs.  Also note that auto aggro was added a few updates ago but was not used at all until recently. So very few if any of the older POIs have it and that this also includes the modded ones a long with just about every tier 5.

 

What your describing sounds like awake zombies(rare in dev made POIs) or a unlucky detect/wake up roll on standard sleepers.

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On 11/28/2020 at 6:18 AM, JukkaZ31 said:

all differing opinions must be shot down and/or deleted.

All opinions are discussed critically. Zero opinions have been deleted. We treat fans and customers with the respect of taking their opinions seriously and having a real discussion about game design rather than simply smiling, patting them on the head, thanking them for their submission, and then completely ignoring them.

 

If you read this entire thread then you know that it has been a lively debate-- but where has anyone been harmed? It was the discussion and subsequent testing that came out of this thread that shaped my opinion on this matter. I definitely went through a change of opinion from the start of this thread until now. I think anyone who started out thinking one way and HASN'T shifted at least a bit in their thoughts regarding these volumes as a result of this thread aren't being very intellectually honest. Anyone claiming that moderators are deleting contrary opinions are just outright lying.

 

This has been a good discussion-- heated at times but still good. 

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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7 hours ago, Yark said:

The example I gave as a comparison is if some rooms set your armor value to zero. Do you think that would be a challenge to plan ahead for, or just nonsensical? 

Yeah, that sounds fun.... you enter a room and there are several bandits with AP rounds.   Sure, I could see that as a challenge that makes perfect sense!  Good idea!

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2 hours ago, Kalen said:

Yeah, that sounds fun.... you enter a room and there are several bandits with AP rounds.   Sure, I could see that as a challenge that makes perfect sense!  Good idea!

Even better the 7 Days equivalent of a Death Claw from Fallout in the form of a zombie with big armor shredding claws. That always runs and has a lot of hit points a long with natural armor to effectively be the worst nightmare for anyone to run into while in a POI. Which is naturally easiest to kill via sneak attack or as far away as possible.

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16 hours ago, Aldranon said:

Exactly.

There is evidence that a dying brain has a short period of heightened brain activity (at least in rats).  So if some zombies are frozen at that state, then they might very well smell or hear the player much better than a living person could.  Sight would be messed up in a dying brain, so it could be the lore why zombies move slower in the daytime.

 

Finding out what is stopping zombies from dying could end up being the main story line.

yeah but same science also proves that  zombies would get quickly inflated by own bacterias and  and explode

1 hour ago, Danidas said:

Even better the 7 Days equivalent of a Death Claw from Fallout in the form of a zombie with big armor shredding claws. That always runs and has a lot of hit points a long with natural armor to effectively be the worst nightmare for anyone to run into while in a POI. Which is naturally easiest to kill via sneak attack or as far away as possible.

err thats pretty much zombie bear role

 

zombie workers/sappers with augers on other side :D:D

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11 hours ago, Kalen said:

Yeah, that sounds fun.... you enter a room and there are several bandits with AP rounds.   Sure, I could see that as a challenge that makes perfect sense!  Good idea!

Yeah but thats not what would happen, it would be a room of bandits and your armor would be set to zero while you are in that room.

 

Not AP weapons what ignore a armor but a line of code what only happens in a specific place. People will gonna complain about it because at first they will think that the bandits have a better AP round than what they can craft then someone later on reveals thats not the case because this is yet another "You fail because you exist" room setup.

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5 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Yeah but thats not what would happen, it would be a room of bandits and your armor would be set to zero while you are in that room.

 

Not AP weapons what ignore a armor but a line of code what only happens in a specific place. People will gonna complain about it because at first they will think that the bandits have a better AP round than what they can craft then someone later on reveals thats not the case because this is yet another "You fail because you exist" room setup.

So?  If you want to get technical I'm not actually entering a room either... its just some code that says I am.   Such a room would not bother me in the slightest.... I would equally welcome a room that encourages stealth as I would a room that encourages a straight up fight.   The game needs more diversity, not less.

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9 hours ago, alanea said:

yeah but same science also proves that  zombies would get quickly inflated by own bacterias and  and explode

 

Well, who knows how zombies would react to bacteria... its not science unless it can be repeated, so science-fiction would be a more accurate term.

However, this could be good lore for the puking zombies: They need to puke or they will explode!

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20 hours ago, Yark said:

It isn't a challenge. It's just bad design.

 

The example I gave as a comparison is if some rooms set your armor value to zero. Do you think that would be a challenge to plan ahead for, or just nonsensical? 

It certainly better than having the players head explode in some rooms!

But seriously, you are trying to make a passive "All or nothing" attribute (hidden-not hidden), the same as a active "Always on" attribute (there-still there). 

 

I'm sure you can see the flaw in your example now.

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Just now, Aldranon said:

It certainly better than having the players head explode in some rooms!

But seriously, you are trying to make a passive "All or nothing" attribute (hidden-not hidden), the same as a active "Always on" attribute (there-still there). 

 

I'm sure you can see the flaw in your example now.

It basically comes down to your perks working 99% of the time, but not 100% of the time. I suspect what happened with some of the rooms is that it was just a developer mistake later justified by, "Enjoy the challenge."

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2 hours ago, Kalen said:

So?  If you want to get technical I'm not actually entering a room either... its just some code that says I am.   Such a room would not bother me in the slightest.... I would equally welcome a room that encourages stealth as I would a room that encourages a straight up fight.   The game needs more diversity, not less.

Let me point out something important what you too have said right here:

 

The game needs more diversity, not less.

 

Now please explain how it adds more diversity to the game when an arbitary failure script turns off a gameplay element? Or let me simplicate it even further, if your game is based on matching up same colored tiles atleast 3 in a line or column how does it increase the diversity when you remove one color from the palette?

 

We have a ton of combat approaches from throwing in grenades, shooting in a rocket to going melee or go full stealth and you say that removing one of the elements will somehow make it more diverse?

 

Lets just make a set of zombies what are healing from fire damage from the player, surely making molotovs and anything burning less useful is adds somekind of diversity to the game because it somehow increases your choice of throwables and mods to use?

 

 

Auto-trigger rooms do one thing precisely, they decrease the diversity of the game because there are much less ways to approach a problem than before.

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6 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Now please explain how it adds more diversity to the game when an arbitary failure script turns off a gameplay element? Or let me simplicate it even further, if your game is based on matching up same colored tiles atleast 3 in a line or column how does it increase the diversity when you remove one color from the palette?

How does having a room where stealth doesn't work without a little effort promote diversity?   Um, by making it so that stealth doesn't work without a little effort in some places.  Without auto agro rooms you could pretty much creep your way through every POI dropping zombies with headshots and little to no risk to yourself.

 

Having rooms where a straight up fight is less effective than stealth (like the mentioned 0 armor scenario) would be another way to do it.   

 

I'm in favor of almost anything that promotes a player using different strategies to clear a POI.

Edited by Kalen (see edit history)
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29 minutes ago, Yark said:

It basically comes down to your perks working 99% of the time, but not 100% of the time. I suspect what happened with some of the rooms is that it was just a developer mistake later justified by, "Enjoy the challenge."

You must be new to the game, so a little history for you and other who are new.

 

I might have the order wrong but here are the zombie POI behaviors TFP have tried:

1) In POI's zombies run, but if you get them outside they stop running and you can kill them all easily.

2) In POI's zombie sleep, but if you hit the wall/door they all wake up and you can kill them all outside, easily.

3) Now we have each room as separate where sound no longer travels between most rooms.

 

#3 Is not as easy as #1 or #2, but its not as realistic as well.  Moral if the story?  Dev who makes a game, find out that game balance wins over realism.

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How about Bloodmoons as they disable stealth as well and do so to a far greater degree then these rooms. As unlike auto aggro rooms it is actually impossible to use stealth at all during them. So in effect these rooms prepare you for the inevitable fact that this isn't a stealth game as confirmed extensively by the devs themselves. Stealth is nothing more then a situational tool to safely take out unaware targets of opportunity and nothing more. Now these auto aggro rooms are designed specifically to not fall into that category. However you can still deal with them via stealth but in a indirect way by breaking aggro with them first via running away and swinging back around to sneak attack them.

 

Note before you go on and on about then why do we have stealth perks it was proven that From the Shadows is one of the most over rated perks in the game. As it really does very little if anything for direct stealth game play and instead its most important benefit is speeding up the time it takes zombies to forget about you to break aggro faster. As it's fully possible to stealth every single POI in the game even while literally using a shotgun for all sneak attacks only with out a single point in From the Shadows.

 

Edit - For more clarification the shotgun stealth runs were done via shooting zombies in the face while sneaking and very few would ever wake up. Which when they did rarely wake up all the tester did was run away a few rooms till they broke aggro to allow them to restealth and continue blasting unaware zombies in the face with a shotgun. Sure it took longer then it would of if they just blasted them in the face regardless of if they knew what was coming or not but that was expected.

 

Edited by Danidas (see edit history)
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46 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Let me point out something important what you too have said right here:

 

The game needs more diversity, not less.

 

Now please explain how it adds more diversity to the game when an arbitary failure script turns off a gameplay element? Or let me simplicate it even further, if your game is based on matching up same colored tiles atleast 3 in a line or column how does it increase the diversity when you remove one color from the palette?

 

We have a ton of combat approaches from throwing in grenades, shooting in a rocket to going melee or go full stealth and you say that removing one of the elements will somehow make it more diverse?

 

Lets just make a set of zombies what are healing from fire damage from the player, surely making molotovs and anything burning less useful is adds somekind of diversity to the game because it somehow increases your choice of throwables and mods to use?

 

 

Auto-trigger rooms do one thing precisely, they decrease the diversity of the game because there are much less ways to approach a problem than before.

As a life long hunter, I stalk my prey, but their senses are very keen.  Even moving upwind on quiet ground and masking scent I am never 100% successful, and not even close.  Investing in stealth would give you an advantage on unwary prey, but it sounds like some folks here are looking for certainty.  An alerted adversary is impossible to surprise.

 

Game theory in a complex multiplayer game involves scenarios that require skill diversity.  In the "simplicated" metaphor, there are multiple ways to clear a room.  Good POI design would bring all the play styles some love, but not in every room.  If I'm a H2H strength build, I will occasionally face feral irradiated tough opponent.  I don't get the x9 times damage bonus verses bikers perk.  Maybe the smart move is to let the stealthy player take out the biker.  But, in the next room they are alerted, so the intellect build with turrets or tank with a club gets the love while the stealth player participates.

 

Balancing PVE and PVP in a game like this is tough.   You don't want to over or under advantage one play style or everyone chooses the exact same build.

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42 minutes ago, Danidas said:

How about Bloodmoons as they disable stealth as well and do so to a far greater degree then these rooms. As unlike auto aggro rooms it is actually impossible to use stealth at all during them. So in effect these rooms prepare you for the inevitable fact that this isn't a stealth game as confirmed extensively by the devs themselves. Stealth is nothing more then a situational tool to safely take out unaware targets of opportunity and nothing more. Now these auto aggro rooms are designed specifically to not fall into that category. However you can still deal with them via stealth but in a indirect way by breaking aggro with them first via running away and swinging back around to sneak attack them.

 

Note before you go on and on about then why do we have stealth perks it was proven that From the Shadows is one of the most over rated perks in the game. As it really does very little if anything for direct stealth game play and instead its most important benefit is speeding up the time it takes zombies to forget about you to break aggro faster. As it's fully possible to stealth every single POI in the game even while literally using a shotgun for all sneak attacks only with out a single point in From the Shadows.

 

Edit - For more clarification the shotgun stealth runs were done via shooting zombies in the face while sneaking and very few would ever wake up. Which when they did rarely wake up all the tester did was run away a few rooms till they broke aggro to allow them to restealth and continue blasting unaware zombies in the face with a shotgun. Sure it took longer then it would of if they just blasted them in the face regardless of if they knew what was coming or not but that was expected.

 

I do my blood moons multiplayer.  I do see that if I am crouched and shoot at a zombie aggro'd on someone else I will get stealth bonus damage.

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2 hours ago, Aldranon said:

You must be new to the game, so a little history for you and other who are new.

 

I might have the order wrong but here are the zombie POI behaviors TFP have tried:

1) In POI's zombies run, but if you get them outside they stop running and you can kill them all easily.

2) In POI's zombie sleep, but if you hit the wall/door they all wake up and you can kill them all outside, easily.

3) Now we have each room as separate where sound no longer travels between most rooms.

 

#3 Is not as easy as #1 or #2, but its not as realistic as well.  Moral if the story?  Dev who makes a game, find out that game balance wins over realism.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. 

 

And by the way, for everyone contending that auto-aggro makes the game more interesting or challenging, it doesn't. I have a significant amount of play time with a stealth build and I already know every room where it doesn't work. That doesn't make the game harder for me; just makes me shake my head at developer incompetence while I clear the room anyway. 

Edited by Yark (see edit history)
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6 hours ago, Solomon said:

Yeah but thats not what would happen, it would be a room of bandits and your armor would be set to zero while you are in that room.

 

Not AP weapons what ignore a armor but a line of code what only happens in a specific place. People will gonna complain about it because at first they will think that the bandits have a better AP round than what they can craft then someone later on reveals thats not the case because this is yet another "You fail because you exist" room setup.

SciFi explanation: The bandits found a machine from a secret military lab that produces supersonic sound at just the right frequency to make the AP rounds of the bandits vibrate in flight and that makes them pass through armor like it was butter.

 

This is just a random justification because the people you are speaking for seem to need it.

 

Your "You fail because you exist" sentence assumes that you automatically die because of this. This is a strawman, nobody here wants anything in the game that makes everyone die automatically. People in this thread have listed numerous strategies to cope with such rooms, even when you are surprised by it. If you want to work with a no-armor room as an analogy then it should have similar properties not some hyperbole "You automatically die".

 

EDIT: Just to be clear, there is a huge difference between "You fail" and "your armor/stealth fails". If you just meant the latter you should not make it sound like it is game over.

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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17 hours ago, Kalen said:

Yeah, that sounds fun.... you enter a room and there are several bandits with AP rounds.   Sure, I could see that as a challenge that makes perfect sense!  Good idea!

You're being disingenuous because this is not at all what I said. 

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32 minutes ago, Yark said:

This has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. 

 

And by the way, for everyone contending that auto-aggro makes the game more interesting or challenging, it doesn't. I have a significant amount of play time with a stealth build and I already know every room where it doesn't work. That doesn't make the game harder for me; just makes me shake my head at developer incompetence while I clear the room anyway. 

Tell that to Solomon who seems to think it is an auto-die situation (EDIT: or she is using hyperbole or very ambiguous language). There are a lot of things in this game that don't work anymore if you have seen everything and done everything. Sad fact, without mods any game will eventually get stale. Sad fact 2, as long as someone has weapon perks up and unlimited ammo, no existing poi in vanilla has the slightest chance to kill a player. Vanilla is not designed to humor players with more than 500 hours playtime and can't be.

1 hour ago, Kandrathe said:

I do my blood moons multiplayer.  I do see that if I am crouched and shoot at a zombie aggro'd on someone else I will get stealth bonus damage.

If I remember correctly Fataal said the opposite, you can't get stealth bonus on alert zombies, no matter who alerted it.

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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