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Why are the devs screwing over agi/stealth in their POI design?


Tehnomaag
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3 hours ago, Jenshae said:

 

I don't think you meant that seriously, this is a forest and one with particularily dense shrubbery as well. Even I could hide in there.

 

This is what google gives back: https://www.google.com/search?q=empty+field&tbm=isch

and even those pictures often have too much vegetation for what I had in mind:

https://www.google.com/search?q=dry+empty+field&tbm=isch

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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3 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I don't think you meant that seriously, this is a forest and a particularily dense one as well

 

This is what google gives back https://www.google.com/search?q=open+field&tbm=isch

and even those pictures often have too much vegetation for what I had in mind. https://www.google.com/search?q=dry+dusty+open+field

Not to mention, who says the zombies in this game only use sight to detect you?

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Most good games have the "not too easy, not too hard" matra going on.

With stealth, if you could be 100% stealthy all the time, then the Devs failed.

 

Some people want things that could kill a good game because they don't think it all the way through. 

(Airships are the only exception... of course)

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6 hours ago, Aldranon said:

Most good games have the "not too easy, not too hard" matra going on.

With stealth, if you could be 100% stealthy all the time, then the Devs failed.

 

Some people want things that could kill a good game because they don't think it all the way through. 

(Airships are the only exception... of course)

I have suggested: 
Trip wires - can be disarmed.
Alarm systems - various different ways this might have to be done, like finding the power source and cutting it or sniping out a motion sensor.
Special zombies with great hearing - you would need to learn what zombie needs to be shot first in the room or it wakes up all the others.


This would mean the players get startled the first few times but when it gets boring, annoying and repetitive to hit these volumes where you can't sneak, then you can manage them directly from prior learned experiences in the game.
 

8 hours ago, meganoth said:

I don't think you meant that seriously, this is a forest and one with particularily dense shrubbery as well. Even I could hide in there.

Your empty fields? They can dig a shallow hole and lay a section of cut turf over themselves. 
Deserts? They bury themselves and use combined periscope and breathing apparatus.
Thermals? There is shielding for that. Our survivors could make reasonable one from thermal blankets found in First Aid kits.
Smells? Hunters have known for millennia to cover themselves in other scents. 

https://imgur.com/gallery/UuBOp

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2 hours ago, Jenshae said:

Your empty fields? They can dig a shallow hole and lay a section of cut turf over themselves. 
Deserts? They bury themselves and use combined periscope and breathing apparatus.
Thermals? There is shielding for that. Our survivors could make reasonable one from thermal blankets found in First Aid kits.
Smells? Hunters have known for millennia to cover themselves in other scents. 

https://imgur.com/gallery/UuBOp

So you really were serious. Then please read carefully what I write before disputing strawmens I never claimed. I said quote "in an acceptable time frame in an empty field in daylight".

 

If you have the time to dig trenches and advance millimeter by millimeter you can cross an empty field too, heck, you can cross a field of concrete if you have enough time to dig a tunnel. But that is not the situation I talked about.

 

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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35 minutes ago, meganoth said:

So you really were serious. Then please read carefully what I write before disputing strawmens I never claimed. I said quote "in an acceptable time frame in an empty field in daylight".

 

If you have the time to dig trenches and advance millimeter by millimeter you can cross an empty field too, heck, you can cross a field of concrete if you have enough time to dig a tunnel. But that is not the situation I talked about.

There are gillie suits in the game already. The biomes have fixed appearances. They could easily lie prone and hide very effectively, like the linked photo album.

Considering how well zombies are known for their lack of observational powers, this would be a cake walk. Usually, in most works of fiction, people just duck behind a corner, no camouflage and wait for the zombie to not look in any obvious places. It just wanders around confused then away after a short while.
 

Edited by Jenshae (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Jenshae said:

There are gillie suits in the game already. The biomes have fixed appearances. They could easily lie prone and hide very effectively, like the linked photo album.

Considering how well zombies are known for their lack of observational powers, this would be a cake walk. Usually, in most works of fiction, people just duck behind a corner, no camouflage and wait for the zombie to not look in any obvious places. It just wanders around confused then away after a short while.
 

I made my point about the hypothetical open field situation to simply refute the assertion of stample that " Its the lack of control in an aspect which, in theory, you do have control. ". I wanted to show that there are situations in principle that are unsolvable through stealth. For this I needed only one example and that example is still working.

 

Now in the game there is a totally different situation. In the game we have no open field, we have a room to infiltrate (goodbye ghillie suit) and there are zombies in there, enemies with capabilities that are frankly unter total control of the people building the world, i.e. TFP. That alone makes it very hard for anyone trying to prove anything about having control or not.

 

So TFP can postulate special zombies being in there that have better smell or better observational powers. They can even postulate zombies with occult, PSI or magic powers. They can postulate that the player has no soap available and is generally smelling like a dung heap. They can postulate anything being in the room: motion detectors or infrared light barriers that trigger an alarm in some back room alerting the zombies. And postulate you don't have the means to disable or notice those motion detectors. They can postulate that 5 points in stealth only makes you competent in stealth, not excel in it.

 

So whatever we talk about and try to prove or disprove about the actual situation in the game, TFP can always pull the rug out from under us and shred our argument.

 

 

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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5 hours ago, meganoth said:

In the game we have no open field, we have a room to infiltrate (goodbye ghillie suit)

TFP can always pull the rug out from under us and shred our argument.

Like this camoflage, there is urban ghillie suits, they are just more grey to go with all of the concrete.


They already have pulled the rug out from under us. It seems like some enjoy then using the rug as a blindfold to "enhance" their game play. 😜

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36 minutes ago, Jenshae said:

It seems like some enjoy then using the rug as a blindfold to "enhance" their game play.

I just see it as uninterrupted ability to continually use stealth. The tactics change from simply lining up a sleeping head in your gun sight with zero threat to escaping notice, going under cover, re-emerging in the shadows, and then lining up a moving awake head in your gun sight and even using bait distraction with the aid of a thrown rock.

 

Honestly, how can you relegate the gameplay of occasionally needing to escape, hide, re-emerge, and then stealth kill moving targets as just a sarcastic "enhancement" over shooting immobile unconscious targets every single time? Guilty as charged. I definitely see it as an enhancement of stealth gameplay.

 

It's like a couple of guys shooting cans in their backyard laughing at the dope who goes out hunting live game for some kind of alleged "enhanced" shooting experience over what they're doing every day... lol

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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7 minutes ago, Roland said:

I just see it as uninterrupted ability to continually use stealth. The tactics change from simply lining up a sleeping head in your gun sight with zero threat to escaping notice, going under cover, re-emerging in the shadows, and then lining up a moving awake head in your gun sight and even using bait distraction with the aid of a thrown rock.

The difference in this situation between 7DTD and other stealth games is that you didn't screw up to trigger it.

They just arbitrarily decide that the abilities you put effort into getting and selecting will simply not work. It is more of a lame prank than a game mechanic.

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14 minutes ago, Jenshae said:

The difference in this situation between 7DTD and other stealth games is that you didn't screw up to trigger it.

They just arbitrarily decide that the abilities you put effort into getting and selecting will simply not work. It is more of a lame prank than a game mechanic.

I'm pretty sure that most stealth games have scripted events and/or cutscenes that are designed to pull you out of stealth. Grant it in most cases the games are far more polished with built in hand holding to soften the blow but they still pull you out of stealth when the game designers decide that they don't want you to use it.

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On 11/12/2020 at 10:31 PM, Danidas said:

I'm pretty sure that most stealth games have scripted events and/or cutscenes that are designed to pull you out of stealth. Grant it in most cases the games are far more polished with built in hand holding to soften the blow but they still pull you out of stealth when the game designers decide that they don't want you to use it.

Not always unless the mission is directly focused on killing a target but for example some missions in metal gear solid v even when you are confronted with an "alerted" enemy can be done in complete stealth.

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5 hours ago, Solomon said:

Not always unless the mission is directly focused on killing a target but for example some missions in metal gear solid v even when you are confronted with an "alerted" enemy can be done in complete stealth.

Same as this game. the zombies are "alerted" through no fault of the player and at first while they are "alerted" they are not immediately even targeting the player. The player can use cover and shadows in classic stealth gameplay to take out the "alerted" enemies. 


What IS different than any other stealth game is for every single enemy you encounter to be unconscious dormant stationary targets. Frankly, for stealth players to come here and campaign for all enemies to please stay asleep so they can be shot while immobile seems a bit wierd to me. Did you hate how the sentries in MGS would walk patrols and check out noises or start running searches if they found a body? Did you just wish they would all be lying on the ground sleeping?

 

Only desiring stealth against unconscious enemies seems...I dunno....

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10 hours ago, Roland said:

Same as this game. the zombies are "alerted" through no fault of the player and at first while they are "alerted" they are not immediately even targeting the player. The player can use cover and shadows in classic stealth gameplay to take out the "alerted" enemies. 


What IS different than any other stealth game is for every single enemy you encounter to be unconscious dormant stationary targets. Frankly, for stealth players to come here and campaign for all enemies to please stay asleep so they can be shot while immobile seems a bit wierd to me. Did you hate how the sentries in MGS would walk patrols and check out noises or start running searches if they found a body? Did you just wish they would all be lying on the ground sleeping?

 

Only desiring stealth against unconscious enemies seems...I dunno....

Not at all but in MSG i if i fail stealth its mostly if not always is because i @%$#ed something up. That body was at the wrong place, was not accurate enough and soo on.

 

Also in MSG if i alerted a bunch of enemies that did not mean that they are now having a target lock on my ass compared to here where if you step into a trigger zone the zombies not just wake up and start moving around but they know your exact position and are directly targetting you.

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