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Why are the devs screwing over agi/stealth in their POI design?


Tehnomaag
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And the club get´s all the kills for non stealth builds. It´s the opposite of playing stealth beeing as OP as killing sleepers with the bow. It´s riddiculous with sexy T-Rex and godlike with the books completed. Even on survivalist. Only clubbing trough a T5 quest? No problem at all. If you can´t stealth, wich does happen even with no auto aggro you are going to have a much harder time with a pure agi build and higher difficulties. 

 

And then there is ofc the auto shotgun. Boy, this thing rip´s trough everything easy af.

 

Not to forget the drawback of time when stealthing. Someone doing clubs and shotgun is WAY faster trough a POI. What you think you gain with easy kills, you loose on time. A lot of time. You don´t aggro any screamers tough, but tbh, you can simply ignore them most of the time when running and gunning. 

 

And if you use the SMG, even with silencer, you get screamers aswell.

Edited by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)
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Stealth is not for speed running efficiency players. I’ll grant you that. 
 

But then those players miss a lot more of the game than just stealth and feel forced into a much narrower set of tactics than how to respond to an auto aggro room. Of course, they set those limits on themselves and some of them even acknowledge that rather than coming here and complaining that the game screws them over....

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On 10/24/2020 at 4:14 PM, meganoth said:

I would call it sloppy design. But look at what else is cutting corners in this game because a small dev team is making a huge game on insufficient hardware (at least for the level of optimization they can afford). Too few zombies, no detection of inside/outside or walls between sounds, all to save CPU cycles or development time.

 

I know you mean their hardware, but what we also need is that the game fully utilizes all cores of a CPU and not just 2. That would make a lot of things possible that are said to be to hardware intense right now. I get in the CPU Limit with a utilization of 30% on my CPU. I would have the power but the game doesn´t use it.

 

It´s 2020, no one plays on a dual core anymore (well hardly anyone) and a 6 core/12 Threads CPU is considered a budget option these days. Heck, you can get a R7 3700X with 8 cores and 16 Threads for 279€ right now.

Edited by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)
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3 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

I know you mean their hardware, but what we also need is that the game fully utilizes all cores of a CPU and not just 2. That would make a lot of things possible that are said to be to hardware intense right now. I get in the CPU Limit with a utilization of 30% on my CPU. I would have the power but the game doesn´t use it.

 

It´s 2020, no one plays on a dual core anymore (well hardly anyone) and a 6 core/12 Threads CPU is considered a budget option these days. Heck, you can get a R7 3700X with 8 cores and 16 Threads for 279€ right now.

I was making the point mostly about hardware (i.e. the minimum specs), but also about dev time. Corners have to be cut to finish in this millenia as well.

 

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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I would like to offer my perspective on why this is an issue for many of us, myself included. I created my account just to reply to this thread. So, hello all!

 

It has been stated that TFP want moments of direct confrontation in POIs. An understandable design decision. But the current handling of auto-aggro volumes in POIs is bad design. And I will explain why I say this.

 

I currently have over 2000 hrs played, I mod my game to have to have 4x zombies with respawn rate of 4 times a day, and my wandering hordes are 20-30 in size. So I get plenty of direct confrontation in the game. And I have played practically all weapon builds. With that said, when a game, any game, offers stealth options as part of game play, I tend to gravitate toward the stealth/sniper style of play. I just find it very enjoyable.

 

Now, I think we can all agree that games cheat. They know things the player does not, and they make decisions for reasons of game play, optimization, or whatever. When I stealth through a POI, the game knows I am there. But for immersion it pretends to not know I am there. It needs to do this in a way that makes me, the player, believe it is my skill and my character choices that are being rewarded.

 

In the current form of auto-aggro volumes, no matter my level of skill or perks, even if my stealth meter is on 3. The moment I set foot in the volume, the Z's aggro. It does not matter what I do. Venturing through the same POI layout, the first time - "Oh, crap!". The second time - "Really?". The third time - "This is bull, the game is cheating." And I have played enough that I know where pretty much every single auto-aggro is. It is no longer "Oh, crap!", it's just "oh, this one again. No stealth here."

 

A simple change of making auto-aggro volumes not 100% activation can fix this. If they had some percentage chance to trigger, regardless the player's stealth, that adds your direct confrontation moments. But when done well the player does not get the impression the game is cheating. If we didn't know auto-aggro volumes existed, over time, a very astute player may figure out that certain areas of POI's are tricky and dangerous to traverse, but many would just assume bad luck. And there would be a lot more of the "Oh, crap!" moments.

 

edit - also add a delay, entry of the volume can trigger the event (percent chance), but the aggro action does not occur until after some random time has passed. This would make it harder for the player to determine a pattern, which is obvious as it is now, with immediate aggro.

Edited by BaronSamedi (see edit history)
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2 hours ago, BaronSamedi said:

A simple change of making auto-aggro volumes not 100% activation can fix this. If they had some percentage chance to trigger, regardless the player's stealth, that adds your direct confrontation moments. But when done well the player does not get the impression the game is cheating. If we didn't know auto-aggro volumes existed, over time, a very astute player may figure out that certain areas of POI's are tricky and dangerous to traverse, but many would just assume bad luck. And there would be a lot more of the "Oh, crap!" moments.

 

edit - also add a delay, entry of the volume can trigger the event (percent chance), but the aggro action does not occur until after some random time has passed. This would make it harder for the player to determine a pattern, which is obvious as it is now, with immediate aggro.

Well done.... I think these are great suggestions.

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7 hours ago, BaronSamedi said:

I would like to offer my perspective on why this is an issue for many of us, myself included. I created my account just to reply to this thread. So, hello all!

Welcome to the forum and I am so glad a conversation such as this compelled you to sign up! :)

 

7 hours ago, BaronSamedi said:

It has been stated that TFP want moments of direct confrontation in POIs. An understandable design decision. But the current handling of auto-aggro volumes in POIs is bad design. And I will explain why I say this.

This was stated near the beginning of the conversation BEFORE we learned that auto-aggro rooms do not, in fact, force direct confrontation. You can still use stealth tactics to react to those rooms and gain the benefits of your perk multipliers for one-shot kill headshots as the zeds wander around unaware of you. I do feel that the devs do want direct confrontation in the game but as of now, auto-aggro rooms are not necessarily one of those times.

 

7 hours ago, BaronSamedi said:

I currently have over 2000 hrs played, I mod my game to have to have 4x zombies with respawn rate of 4 times a day, and my wandering hordes are 20-30 in size. So I get plenty of direct confrontation in the game. And I have played practically all weapon builds. With that said, when a game, any game, offers stealth options as part of game play, I tend to gravitate toward the stealth/sniper style of play. I just find it very enjoyable.

I hope you don't think that the developers need to design around your modification choices. They can't possibly know that because you have modded the game a certain way, that you have your fill and then some of direct confrontation. They can't remove instances of designed direct confrontation just because some people added more of their own in elsewhere. That was a choice to play a game you (or another modder) created and not the one the devs made.

 

7 hours ago, BaronSamedi said:

In the current form of auto-aggro volumes, no matter my level of skill or perks, even if my stealth meter is on 3. The moment I set foot in the volume, the Z's aggro. It does not matter what I do. Venturing through the same POI layout, the first time - "Oh, crap!". The second time - "Really?". The third time - "This is bull, the game is cheating." And I have played enough that I know where pretty much every single auto-aggro is. It is no longer "Oh, crap!", it's just "oh, this one again. No stealth here."

I want to address this issue. Unlike other stealth games, this game does not have any awake enemies or guards on sentry duty. Every single enemy is dormant so the stealth is very samey. The auto-aggro rooms give us enemies that are awake and aggravated but they don't immediately target you unless once they come out they happen to see you. In some other game this would be like coming to a hallway with some alert guards walking their rounds. Just because they are awake and active does not mean your stealth has failed. It means you have to change your tactics-- but they are still stealth tactic. Same in this game. You can hide and throw rocks to distract and you will evade them. Then you can take your headshots from crouched position and get your multipliers and bonuses and not alert nearby awake zombies.

 

The developers cannot just put already wandering and awake zombies in rooms or they will tear things apart before the player gets to them. They wake up upon entrance so that they are freshly awake enemies but they haven't destroyed everything while waiting for the player. The distinction you have to understand is that YOU did not wake them up. They are just awake. You can still use stealth in reaction to their status as awake and alert and aggravated enemies if you want. You can also go guns blazing if that is your choice.

7 hours ago, BaronSamedi said:

A simple change of making auto-aggro volumes not 100% activation can fix this. If they had some percentage chance to trigger, regardless the player's stealth, that adds your direct confrontation moments. But when done well the player does not get the impression the game is cheating. If we didn't know auto-aggro volumes existed, over time, a very astute player may figure out that certain areas of POI's are tricky and dangerous to traverse, but many would just assume bad luck. And there would be a lot more of the "Oh, crap!" moments.

 

edit - also add a delay, entry of the volume can trigger the event (percent chance), but the aggro action does not occur until after some random time has passed. This would make it harder for the player to determine a pattern, which is obvious as it is now, with immediate aggro.

Random chance for it to happen anywhere would be great. I agree with you that for those who are bothered by it, such a randomizer could make it so they don't notice or at least have a hard time ascribing it to a certain event. The delay idea....I think that would make it more of a death trap and more of an unfair event that you guys are already complaining about. Because it goes off the moment you enter the volume, you have time to react and space to backtrack to hide and re-emerge in stealth mode. If it delays and you are in the middle or far end of a room when it goes off then you really would be forced to shift into guns blazing because you could find yourself easily surrounded with no hiding places. What you propose sounds exactly like what you guys are complaining about right now whereas what we have right now is not a stealth breaker but a stealth shocker but the stealth player can react and continue to play in a completely stealthy manner to the trigger.

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Random chance for any room to start running at you..? Well, sounds better than a 100% at specific rooms. Maybe 20% for most (of the current 100%) rooms and that 100% for "boss rooms"?

 

I'd love to see a "lore mechanic" for it though... for example, stacks of empty cans, barrels, cooking ware, whatever excessively loud you can imagine falling over in the room. Sure it'll still feel unfair, as in "I wasn't even near that thing!", but piles of things may just collapse on their own over time. Alarms, toys, rotten ammo, animals (a chicken taking off and making noise).

Edited by theFlu (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Roland said:

The auto-aggro rooms give us enemies that are awake and aggravated but they don't immediately target you unless once they come out they happen to see you.

That was something Fataal was talking about possibly implementing as an adjustment, not what is in place. The testing done by meganoth, Boidster and Jugginator had the zombies time out. Zombies triggered by attack volumes are targeted on the player.

Edited by hiemfire (see edit history)
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4 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

That was something Fataal was talking about possibly implementing as an adjustment, not what is in place. The testing done by meganoth, Boidster and Jugginator had the zombies time out in their searching. Zombies triggered by attack volumes are targeted on the player.

I took @Roland comment to mean that since the game can't support having zombies already spawned in a room, auto aggro volumes are a way to simulate "awake and alert zombies".  Zombies that attack as soon as they "see" you, which they do as soon as you enter their line of sight (ie. their volume)

Edited by Kalen (see edit history)
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My method is to stay stealthed as long as possible. I sneak up tot he POI and find a way in. 99% of the time there is a way. The other 1% I may need to break down a door. I destroy every single piece of litter on the ground so I can not accidentally hit it. This results in lots of resources also. When I hit a roadblock in a building, I look for the way around. It always exists. I even have to leave POIs at times, load my truck, and return. No problems.

 

Now on bloodmoon nights? That's when we break out the boom-sticks!

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On 10/26/2020 at 5:16 AM, meganoth said:

I was making the point mostly about hardware (i.e. the minimum specs), but also about dev time. Corners have to be cut to finish in this millenia as well.

 

 

If the game stays with an empty world like this, it will hurt it more than a longer development. I was harvesting ressources at the Farmer Joes POI from compopack (it´s outside) the whole day. Not a single zombie. Nothing.  That can´t be what they want.

 

Same for multicore support, people having 6 cores is common these days. More and more games take advantage of that. People will think twice more often in the near future if they buy a game that doesn´t make use of all their cores. I will for sure, i have the power, i want to use it. Also this would mean that we can have more zombies without hurting peoples hardware that are on a budget.

Edited by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)
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22 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

If the game stays with an empty world like this, it will hurt it more than a longer development. I was harvesting ressources at the Farmer Joes POI from compopack (it´s outside) the whole day. Not a single zombie. Nothing.  That can´t be what they want.

 

Same for multicore support, people having 6 cores is common these days. More and more games take advantage of that. People will think twice more often in the near future if they buy a game that doesn´t make use of all their cores. I will for sure, i have the power, i want to use it. Also this would mean that we can have more zombies without hurting peoples hardware that are on a budget.

That woud be a good suggestion or question to Fataal, but has not much to do with the topic of this thread. Except to say that IF they add more parallelism and decide to continue development for much longer, eventually they might find the time to smooth out some corners they cut. Which is probably way down their list of things to do.

 

My guess is that they either

A) won't ever touch the minimal speccs and add a few options shortly before gold to adjust things like zombie frequency.

B) adjust the minimal speccs, but only once shortly before gold.

 

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On 10/25/2020 at 2:31 PM, Roland said:

Stealth is not for speed running efficiency players. I’ll grant you that. 
 

But then those players miss a lot more of the game than just stealth and feel forced into a much narrower set of tactics than how to respond to an auto aggro room. Of course, they set those limits on themselves and some of them even acknowledge that rather than coming here and complaining that the game screws them over....

For me, it is not a narrowing of tactics.

It is a lack of cause and effect with the lack of control over the environment.

If I screw up, fine, whip out the shotgun and blast their heads off.
*Magic* mechanics that I can't interact with with in game (disable in this case) = mechanics I will find ways to exploit, disrupt or abuse in ways that were not intended by the developer.

Edited by Jenshae (see edit history)
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22 minutes ago, Jenshae said:

For me, it is not a narrowing of tactics.

It is a lack of cause and effect with the lack of control over the environment.

If I screw up, fine, whip out the shotgun and blast their heads off.
*Magic* mechanics that I can't interact with with in game (disable in this case) = mechanics I will find ways to exploit, disrupt or abuse in ways that were not intended by the developer.

You can look at it this way. But from another viewpoint there are other events in the game that are out of your control as well, without a discernible cause that you can manipulate:

 

* The spawning of zombies. Is a wandering horde hitting you because you did something? Can you avoid their attack on your base? (actually you can, but only with the meta knowledge that the wandering hordes are not simulated over the whole world, their wandering is faked only in the area around you)

 

* Tthe whole horde night. Can you make the zombies just not find you on horde night, or is something you do the cause which you could avoid?

 

All of those are examples of challenges the devs put before you. If you don't like a challenge you may have to deal with it yourself any which way you like. Lots of people drove around in horde night or sat in a hole in A16 because they didn't like the horde night challenge.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jenshae said:

It is a lack of cause and effect with the lack of control over the environment.

If I screw up, fine, whip out the shotgun and blast their heads off.

its only a lack of cause and effect because you are using metagame knowledge.  If you knew nothing about auto attack volumes, then the effect of them would seem no different than you failing to be stealthy enough.

 

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45 minutes ago, Kalen said:

its only a lack of cause and effect because you are using metagame knowledge.  If you knew nothing about auto attack volumes, then the effect of them would seem no different than you failing to be stealthy enough.

 

I would disagree here.  I figured out that auto-attack volumes existed because of this behaviour.

 

First time I encountered it was in the new high school (randomly looting on Day 2 or 3).  Yeah, I thought I screwed up.  Then I went through a T1 house, and every single room aggro'd.  I told my teammates "19.1 borked stealth.  It doesn't work at all, every sleeper aggros on me, no matter what"

 

Then I did another POI, and had no issues, figured it was an intermittent bug.

 

Next I did the the fire_station_01, and determined it was an auto-aggro thing.  I found another high school, found that the same room aggro'd the same way, and decided I was definitely right.  This was all in one play session, maybe 3 hrs total.

 

Finally, I searched the boards for validation, and came across this thread.

 

Suggestion:  Make the sleepers in auto-aggro rooms always be out in the open, and preferably (at least one Z) in LOS of the expected entrance, and also some strong lights in the room.  When they break through a wall/cabinet, I know its not LOS.  When they come around a corner and I know I didn't step on trash or otherwise make noise, I know it wasn't me.  Improve the illusion of "they saw me" so it feels like "that room where they are looking right at the door, and there's a bright light right next to it, and man, its impossible to get through that without waking them up!"

 

I know its a new mechanic, but its effectively an illusion.  If the magician is fumbling around, and you see the card go up his sleeve, you're not fooled.  The POIs that utilize it need some improvement to make the illusion more effective.

Edited by stample (see edit history)
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14 minutes ago, Kalen said:

Yup, its still a metagame concept, however.

 

 

It is, but pretty much every time you choose game balance over realism, its a metagame concept.  My pickax does full damage but makes less noise if I'm crouched. My guns shoot more quietly when I'm crouched.  After I read this book, zombies drop loot more often.  Punching a zombie heals me.  An aloe-smeared strip of cloth undoes damage to my intestines from eating a moldy sandwich.  Partial physical blocks act as support as if they were solid blocks.  None of these are bad things, but understanding mechanics are the only way to effectively play a game that doesn't perfectly mimic reality.

 

You can't avoid seeing metagame concepts.  But we can get better at disguising (some of) them so they feel justified.  Brawler needs unrealistic bonuses so that punching a zombie as your go-to weapon doesn't seem completely suicidal.  Variety in base blocks are necessary, and the game engine wouldn't do well if partial blocks only supported a specific direction.  Damage is damage, and bandages fix damage.

 

Zombies instantly, magically know you're in the room as soon as you toe across that doorframe, even though they're behind a wall/ceiling doesn't feel justified to me.  Having zombies facing the door, and a spotlight on the door, and that's "why" they wake up, feels justified.

 

Having every sleeper volume auto-aggro, not justified.  There are (were?) four POIs like that.  One or two rooms max in any given POI, and not every POI even has one?  That seems ok.

 

I like the concept of auto-aggro, it just needs better window dressing, and needs to be less common.

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17 minutes ago, stample said:

Having every sleeper volume auto-aggro, not justified.  There are (were?) four POIs like that.  One or two rooms max in any given POI, and not every POI even has one?  That seems ok.

 

I like the concept of auto-aggro, it just needs better window dressing, and needs to be less common.

Fair enough, I can't dispute that

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3 hours ago, Jenshae said:

It is a lack of cause and effect with the lack of control over the environment.

To each their own, but I find that a game that allows for nothing out of the control of the player to be a very boring affair very quickly. Enabling God Mode and the creative menu is the extreme version of this. The game is no longer even a game when you as the player can control every aspect of what is happening. The cause is that something beyond your actions woke up the zombies and made them become aggravated. The effect is that now you as the player must react quickly in a number of ways already enumerated in this thread. For a survival game, in particular, having situations that happen no matter what the player does that the player must then react to on the fly that threatens their survival-- that is a much more interesting game in my opinion.

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2 hours ago, meganoth said:

You can look at it this way. But from another viewpoint there are other events in the game that are out of your control as well, without a discernible cause that you can manipulate:

 

* The spawning of zombies. Is a wandering horde hitting you because you did something? Can you avoid their attack on your base? (actually you can, but only with the meta knowledge that the wandering hordes are not simulated over the whole world, their wandering is faked only in the area around you)

 

* Tthe whole horde night. Can you make the zombies just not find you on horde night, or is something you do the cause which you could avoid?

 

All of those are examples of challenges the devs put before you. If you don't like a challenge you may have to deal with it yourself any which way you like. Lots of people drove around in horde night or sat in a hole in A16 because they didn't like the horde night challenge.

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Roland said:

To each their own, but I find that a game that allows for nothing out of the control of the player to be a very boring affair very quickly. Enabling God Mode and the creative menu is the extreme version of this. The game is no longer even a game when you as the player can control every aspect of what is happening. The cause is that something beyond your actions woke up the zombies and made them become aggravated. The effect is that now you as the player must react quickly in a number of ways already enumerated in this thread. For a survival game, in particular, having situations that happen no matter what the player does that the player must then react to on the fly that threatens their survival-- that is a much more interesting game in my opinion.

I don't think Jenshae is advocating nothing should be out of their control, that's extreme.  Its the lack of control in an aspect which, in theory, you do have control.

 

We know we can't control random spawns or horde night, etc.  But stealthing through a POI feels skill-based, rather than random.  As though, as long as you're good, you won't get seen.  And then that isn't the case.  Even if you do your job perfectly, you "fail" to get through without being seen.

 

I think this is another point for "have an indication".  If the auto-aggro rooms had bright lights, and visible zombies, you'd know you there is no way to get past and adjust tactics accordingly.  Like a room being patrolled by guards where one is always facing the door.  If you know its impossible, it doesn't feel like you failed, or the game cheated you.  It just requires a different approach, and so it seems fair.

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38 minutes ago, stample said:

 

I don't think Jenshae is advocating nothing should be out of their control, that's extreme.  Its the lack of control in an aspect which, in theory, you do have control.

 

We know we can't control random spawns or horde night, etc.  But stealthing through a POI feels skill-based, rather than random.  As though, as long as you're good, you won't get seen.  And then that isn't the case.  Even if you do your job perfectly, you "fail" to get through without being seen.

 

I think this is another point for "have an indication".  If the auto-aggro rooms had bright lights, and visible zombies, you'd know you there is no way to get past and adjust tactics accordingly.  Like a room being patrolled by guards where one is always facing the door.  If you know its impossible, it doesn't feel like you failed, or the game cheated you.  It just requires a different approach, and so it seems fair.

I agree. I already agreed to something like this pages back. I'm fully on board with a visual or audio cue that gives the reason for why the zombies got aggravated that the player couldn't do anything about. I think, in fact, this is probably the third or fourth time I've agreed to this as people come into the thread and want to participate with the conversation without reading the conversation...

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19 minutes ago, stample said:

 

I don't think Jenshae is advocating nothing should be out of their control, that's extreme.  Its the lack of control in an aspect which, in theory, you do have control.

 

In practice stealth won't work in an acceptable time frame in an empty field in daylight, no matter how light your armor and how good your training is.

 

19 minutes ago, stample said:

We know we can't control random spawns or horde night, etc.  But stealthing through a POI feels skill-based, rather than random.  As though, as long as you're good, you won't get seen.  And then that isn't the case.  Even if you do your job perfectly, you "fail" to get through without being seen.

 

I think this is another point for "have an indication".  If the auto-aggro rooms had bright lights, and visible zombies, you'd know you there is no way to get past and adjust tactics accordingly.  Like a room being patrolled by guards where one is always facing the door.  If you know its impossible, it doesn't feel like you failed, or the game cheated you.  It just requires a different approach, and so it seems fair.

There were already losts of suggestions for indicatiors in this thread. This is a new one though. But if we assume that devs want this as some sort of a trap: If a trap is so obvious, does it still count as a trap?

 

We have people now who want control (i.e. the ability to avoid it completely if you didn't do anything "wrong") and Jenshae seems squarley in that group. We have people like you who want to be warned, but note this too changes the difficulty of these rooms substantially and does not just give a better feeling. If you want that you need an indication that is noticable only when it is already too late to prepare. And we have people who really want unpleasant surprises in the game (or at least have the signs be not so obvious).

 

Fairness? If you want fairness give the zombies guns 😁

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, meganoth said:

But if we assume that devs want this as some sort of a trap: If a trap is so obvious, does it still count as a trap?

This is a good point.

 

What it really comes down to for me is that regardless of how or why the zombies change from a state of sleeping to aggravation, I can still react in a stealthy manner. This has been tested and proven in this thread. I have started playing with this tactic in my own games of retreating and hiding and then stealth killing woken zombies. It's fun-- more fun, imo, than shooting immobile targets.

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