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Why are the devs screwing over agi/stealth in their POI design?

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9 minutes ago, Kalen said:

Yup, you would be in a house and you'd stir up the zombies in the neighboring houses.   When you went to loot those houses they'd be in shambles.

Ahh yes the good old days. It was like a pack of Endermen and Creepers stomping through your world.

Now between mostly sleepers and 1/4 zed block damage setting my world is mostly intact for me to wreck!

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Just now, Krougal said:

Ahh yes the good old days. It was like a pack of Endermen and Creepers stomping through your world.

Now between mostly sleepers and 1/4 zed block damage setting my world is mostly intact for me to wreck!

Especially if you're using shotguns and have all the perk mags for them... YouTubers grumping about the "low" RoF on the Auto-Shotgun absolutely amaze me. Especially when they're also talking about how easily shotguns tear blocks to shreds...

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11 hours ago, Tehnomaag said:

Another possibility might be that when a poi is visited the server somehow stores somewhere the state it was when it was visited and upon a next visit no longer loads the POI from the prefabs folder but actually picks up the stored copy of the POI with all the changes a player might have done when visiting it the previous time (all the broken walls, removed trash, looted containers, zombies already killed, etc). In that scenario, if you change the POI SleeperVolumeFlags in prefabs after the POI has been already visited by any player it might not register until someone gets a mission there and resets the POI, at which point I'd assume it would be freshly loaded from the prefabs and the new SleeperVolumeFlags register.

I did think of that which is why I tested in two different POIs. They were far from each other on the map, in chunks I had never before visited (used the POI teleporter to get there). I need to do a more controlled test, not using my live co-op game, which I don't want to tinker around with too much.

51 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

Padded has a flat -6% across the board on every piece. Steel (on the other end of the spectrum) I've seen with -4% and -3%. Those are not the numbers in green or red either, those are the items' base stats.

This all sounds like some silliness TFP just needs to fix by normalizing values to 0-100%. Naked survivor should have 0% resistance to critical damage. Armor, perks, and mods ought to add +xx% to that. Why they make it so weird? 🤪 (I get that the actual number being used behind the scenes in the calc might be negative, but for UI it should all be normalized for intuitiveness.)

 

And cold and heat resistance? Ugh. Puffer coat should give negative heat resistance. Fight me.

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22 minutes ago, Boidster said:

And cold and heat resistance? Ugh. Puffer coat should give negative heat resistance. Fight me.

It used to be this way (more or less). The temperatures also swung all over the place frequently. It was a nightmare.

Realistic? Sure. Fun? No.

 

53 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

Especially if you're using shotguns and have all the perk mags for them... YouTubers grumping about the "low" RoF on the Auto-Shotgun absolutely amaze me. Especially when they're also talking about how easily shotguns tear blocks to shreds...

Yeah :( I hate using shotguns because of that. Otherwise they would be my hordenight weapon of choice.

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Posted (edited)

The thing that your missing Diche_Bach is that zombies literally do not exist with in POIs at all in any from. Instead what happens is when a designer makes the POI they place spawn points into the rooms to make encounters. Then they draw a single box around the room that the spawn points are in and then not only choose how many points will be used but also pick one of 3 modes for the whole box. Which are Sleeper, Awake, and lastly Attack to determine how all the zombies in that room will behave.

 

Now for players nothing at all exists with in that box until they cross into it and at the point the specified number of spawners will activate to fill that room with zombies. Now if the designer did a good job drawing the box it would not be possible for the player to look into it with out triggering it. However in a lot of cases especially when players deviate from the intended path to bust wholes in POIs they can see the mechanic in action. AKA zombies popping into existence 

Edited by Danidas (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Krougal said:

Yeah :( I hate using shotguns because of that. Otherwise they would be my hordenight weapon of choice.

They're about as friendly to horde bases as dynamite. :D I don't use them either, both for that reason and the way they're set up being the opposite of my preference to make use of distance when in the open. When I'm in the range where a shotgun will hit something in 7d2d I'm either switching to a melee weapon or moving to open the distance.

Edited by hiemfire (see edit history)

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4 hours ago, Diche_Bach said:

If having sleepers inside structures is desirable for reasons which were obvious in past builds I can understand that. The most obvious "solution" would be that any and all sleepers ARE responsive to noise (however with caveats, see m ADDIT section below). It has to be noted that the present system DOES create breaches of immersion which look, at best comical. Check out my screen cap here: 

 

That type of thing is now going to become a very common experience for users who stop to consider how to survive with the least risk and most reward.

 

I realize that, if ALL zombies respond to enough noise then players can "game" that system by making a bunch of noise while in safety either outside a POI structure or otherwise, but those are the breaks. Either the game is "open world" or it is "linear" and if it is one then the degree to which it can involve elements of the other while still retaining a high degree of fidelity, immersion, and fun is necessarily limited.

 

ADDIT: one possible happy medium . . . set ALL zombies in the game to be sensitive to sensory inputs. Let us assume that the maximum level of sensory receptivity is "1000" for a wide awake monkey dude zombie roaming in the wilderness (or whichever one would represent "the most perceptive" and aware).

 

In addition to a basic sensory receptivity threshold (1, or 10, or 50 to 1000 or whatever was appropriate) which would be compared to the level of light/noise/other the player creates, zombie "sensation" could have a second variable regulating it which would be something like "Repetition Threshold." This variable would represent how many sequential cycles the zombie would have to be exposed to a sensory signal that exceeded their threshold. 1 would be the "most alert," 10 would mean that, even if the zombies sensation threshold is "500" it needs to receive a player generated signal that is >=500 ten times in a row in order to be alerted -> this, if properly tuned, could conceivable achieve the intended purpose of the "Stasis Zombies" without making them totally insensitive to noise.

My senses may be dulled from playing this game for a long time, but I don't see anything strange in your picture. A stealth player sees zombies in about that distance all the time, even in lesser distance if perked into the shadows. It can be assumed that if zombies "sleep", they are a lot less likey to notice noise and motion.

 

Now if you tell me you then stood up and shot your blunderbuss a few times and that zombies was still sleeping, then I would find something strange about the situation.

 

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8 hours ago, Kalen said:

True it is.   But it comes down to what it represents.   If we assume 100% crit resistance means you never get crit.... and 0% means you always get crit.   Anything that gets you close to 100 is good.   But, if the armor is giving you -4 or -6, yes the -4 is better.... but they both suck.  I'd rather have neither.   So that can't be what it means.

 

Unless, of course, you are right and empty armor has a base of -10.   But if thats true, that is silly.... you are more likely to be crit wearing armor?

My guess? This is just like how armor stats used to be displayed back in A17 (or was it 18?) . Remember when the "comparison" stats was added and it would show the difference on numbers compared to what you were seeing, instead of what you were wearing? Everyone had a mind@%$# at the time because it was very counter-intuitive.

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1 minute ago, th3s0n1c said:

My guess? This is just like how armor stats used to be displayed back in A17 (or was it 18?) . Remember when the "comparison" stats was added and it would show the difference on numbers compared to what you were seeing, instead of what you were wearing? Everyone had a mind@%$# at the time because it was very counter-intuitive.

Yeah could be.... hopefully they polish that up and make it a little more intuitive in the future.

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On 10/8/2020 at 7:34 PM, Lesdeth said:

I just tried it again. Half the rooms in shotgun and shamway will aggro after you kill one or two zeds with a crossbow or silenced sniper. Then you have to either shotgun or mp5 everything (slower run and gun basically) or run and hide which works maybe half the time with de-aggro, then start again. If there are many zeds, you have to do this 3 or 4 times to actually stealth kill everything, which makes the clear maybe 10x longer than run and gun. There are aggro rooms, which will automatically chase you, then you have to run and hide again to stealth kill instead of just throwing a grenade or two. This is with game stage 200. Agi builds are quite garbage. There is serious balance issues. This is with almost all of the books, tons of points, and t5-t6 armor and weapons.

I will time my runs on the next test to compare the two.

 

One question: You previously said you don't use NV-goggles. Did you increase brightness or how can you still see the zombies in the night?

 

 

I tried another shotgun messiah run as well, on insane difficulty with similar gear like last time. I mainly tried to count how many zombies I could kill while sleeping and how often I failed in this. And I just did the ground floor of the shotgun messiah, I don't expect further rooms to be any different. Mainly used the crossbow by the way.

 

Result: Only twice did I wake up zombies because of failed stealth on the whole ground floor, the other two instances were from failing to spot zombies

 

Further results: Silenced guns are still much more likely to wake up nearby zombies than the crossbow. And using small stones to distract zombies is a big help in re-stealthing

 

If anyone wants the details, read on:

---------------------------------------

I killed 2 in the first room but forgot to check the ceiling. Got a surprise later when I ran through unstealthed and got into a fight with 4 more.

 

Then 2 halls and several rooms with altogether 19 zombies killed in their sleep. One zombie woke up because I didn't see him until I was practically standing on him. One other zombie needed two shots which woke up 2 more.

 

Then the cafeteria with the zombie-filled toilets in front. Killed 3 in the left toilet, then tried to kill the feral biker. Unlike most of the irradiated before he actually did not get killed in one shot and I needed to switch to vulture. This woke up others so I ran. After getting some distance I stealthed, ran a few meters further and threw small stones into far edges. Killed 4 easily.

 

The right side toilet still had 3 zombies I killed silently. This was in daytime btw. Then up the ramp, killed another 9 plus 3 vultures. The only one who needed a finisher shot from the desert vuiture was the biker, again. 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Then the cafeteria with the zombie-filled toilets in front. Killed 3 in the left toilet, then tried to kill the feral biker. Unlike most of the irradiated before he actually did not get killed in one shot and I needed to switch to vulture. This woke up others so I ran. After getting some distance I stealthed, ran a few meters further and threw small stones into far edges. Killed 4 easily.

 

The right side toilet still had 3 zombies I killed silently. This was in daytime btw. Then up the ramp, killed another 9 plus 3 vultures. The only one who needed a finisher shot from the desert vuiture was the biker, again. 

 

 

 

 

It's those armored heads. That's why I keep a silencer on my DV FTW!

 

Pistol - Silencer, 2x, Flashlight, Mag ext - General purpose assassinations

44 - Rad, Cripple, Reflex, Laser - Tougher stuff and 5% trading

DV - Silencer, 2x, Cripple, Mag ext - Assassinating tougher stuff

Xbow - 4x, Rad, Cripple, Poly - Sniping

SMG - Drum mag, Reflex, Fore grip, Muzzle break - @%$# has hit the fan, spec'd for hipshooting.

Machete - Fortifying grip, weighted head, rad remover, burning shaft - For when you feel like getting up close and personal

Edited by Krougal (see edit history)

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17 hours ago, Kalen said:

I would say the majority of zombies that an average player encounters in a game with default settings are sleepers.... so it would be more accurate, IMO, to say that zombies encountered in the wild are not congruent with the rest of the game.

 

Following that argument to its logical end. MAJORITY of sleepers (2/3, roughly) are pretty passive and you have to basically step on their fingers to get them to wake up. It is that about 1/3 of the sleeper volumes react to a player presence in given volume and not something that player does "wrong". 

If one includes the wilderness zombies as well (a minority, of total zombie population as you pointed out) I'd say that roughly 20 to 25% of all the zombies a player encounters are these auto agro ones.  

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6 hours ago, Krougal said:

It's those armored heads. That's why I keep a silencer on my DV FTW!

 

Pistol - Silencer, 2x, Flashlight, Mag ext - General purpose assassinations

44 - Rad, Cripple, Reflex, Laser - Tougher stuff and 5% trading

DV - Silencer, 2x, Cripple, Mag ext - Assassinating tougher stuff

Xbow - 4x, Rad, Cripple, Poly - Sniping

SMG - Drum mag, Reflex, Fore grip, Muzzle break - @%$# has hit the fan, spec'd for hipshooting.

Machete - Fortifying grip, weighted head, rad remover, burning shaft - For when you feel like getting up close and personal

My setup was pretty similar, I did not take a 44 with me and the DV had rad remover instead of mag extender. But I had Silencer in my DV and it still was noticable harder to keep the zombies asleep with the DV. If I remember correctly one of the two times I woke up zombies "guiltlessly" I was using the DV instead of the crossbow for the initial shot.

 

Two further improvements would still be possible by the way: I did take a stack covert cat candy with me but consistently forgot to take one at choke points, the cafeteria toilet would have been ideal for this. Not sure whether the 50% more damage would have been enough though. Also I did not wear the stealth boots. At level 100 that should be standard for a stealth player.

 

 

 

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On 10/5/2020 at 3:34 AM, Kalen said:

And it is.... I quite often stealth through a POI.   And when that fails, I switch to melee.   If there are too many to melee, I pull out my firearm.   If there are still too many (or I haven't found a firearm yet) I run like hell.   So I've engaged in up to 4 different play styles in the same POI.

I am not arguing against there being triggers.
I am arguing against there being triggers that you can't spot, learn from and disarm; triggers that have no cause and effect.

It is the repetition and annoyance that comes with this cheesy mechanic that I despise so much.  "Oh yay. Here is that trigger room again. Time to knock holes in the wall to pop the zombies' heads."
There is a large Shamway, for example, I now always jump on the roof, smack it open then pop their heads from up there instead of going into the room.

If you could disarm the room, you then have more options.
- Disarm it slowly.
- Rush in guns blazing and clear it quickly.

 

By the time you have remembered where the trigger rooms are, they are not presenting any challenge, they are just vexing.

Edited by Jenshae (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Jenshae said:

I am not arguing against there being triggers.
I am arguing against there being triggers that you can't spot, learn from and disarm; triggers that have no cause and effect.

It is the repetition and annoyance that comes with this cheesy mechanic that I despise so much.  "Oh yay. Here is that trigger room again. Time to knock holes in the wall to pop the zombies' heads."
There is a large Shamway, for example, I now always jump on the roof, smack it open then pop their heads from up there instead of going into the room.

If you could disarm the room, you then have more options.
- Disarm it slowly.
- Rush in guns blazing and clear it quickly.

 

By the time you have remembered where the trigger rooms are, they are not presenting any challenge, they are just vexing.

The quote you were responding to was in response to a comment about there not being multiple ways to get through a POI.

 

Honestly, I think we've beat this dead horse enough.

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6 hours ago, Jenshae said:

I am not arguing against there being triggers.
I am arguing against there being triggers that you can't spot, learn from and disarm; triggers that have no cause and effect.

It is the repetition and annoyance that comes with this cheesy mechanic that I despise so much.  "Oh yay. Here is that trigger room again. Time to knock holes in the wall to pop the zombies' heads."
There is a large Shamway, for example, I now always jump on the roof, smack it open then pop their heads from up there instead of going into the room.

If you could disarm the room, you then have more options.
- Disarm it slowly.
- Rush in guns blazing and clear it quickly.

With all due respect, you need to read through the thread as all of this has been thoroughly discussed.

 

1) TFP currently has no plan to create triggers that can be disarmed. The rooms auto aggro because they are intended to do so. So making visual triggers would be even more aggravating because they would just be static art that couldn't be interacted with. At this late stage of development I don't see them going into these changes. The POI's are pretty much done. The only possible alteration that I have heard gaining any traction among the development team is the possibility of hiding a key somewhere in the POI that you will need to open the final loot room treasure box.

 

2) Your assertion that knocking holes in walls to pop zombies' heads is the ONLY ("repetitive and annoyance") stealthy tactic that can be used has been completely dismantled in this thread through actual testing. You can also retreat, hide, and then re-emerge to kill the zombies with all stealth bonuses in force. MAYBE.... using a combination of tactics such as wall breaking, guns blazing, hide and then strike, parkour to high ground, and chokepoint traps could help break up your monotany.

 

6 hours ago, Jenshae said:

By the time you have remembered where the trigger rooms are, they are not presenting any challenge, they are just vexing.

Since the revelation that came out of this thread that you can backtrack, hide, and then sneak back to stealth kill the now awake but meandering zombies I have been doing this more and more with ALL zombies. It has actually been fun to wake up a sleeper, ditch him, and then put an arrow in his head from stealth while he is moving around. It can be challenging at times if that is what you are looking for. I suggest you try it. It has made this thread worthwhile.

5 hours ago, Kalen said:

Honestly, I think we've beat this dead horse enough.

hmmmm....no.....It's definitely still gasping.

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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2 hours ago, Roland said:

So making visual triggers would be even more aggravating because they would just be static art that couldn't be interacted with

There's a sort of visual "trigger" (or rather, a clue) that cant be interacted with.. dog houses/carriers.. whenever there's one of those around, very likely there's a dog in the poi. Same for the cabinet doors zombies break through.

So I guess having a visual clue isnt that far from the way it is.

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5 hours ago, th3s0n1c said:

There's a sort of visual "trigger" (or rather, a clue) that cant be interacted with.. dog houses/carriers.. whenever there's one of those around, very likely there's a dog in the poi. Same for the cabinet doors zombies break through.

So I guess having a visual clue isnt that far from the way it is.

Excellent point. Now making a similar visual cue for the auto-trigger rooms is the hard part. Anyone with a good idea?

 

I got two:

* A block that looks like an alarm system somewhere inside the room that has enough hitpoints so no normal player can destroy it in one hit. The disadvantage is that even this simple idea needs devs time. If you hit the box, the auto-trigger area has to trigger as well. If not, players will except that they can destroy the box and then enter the area without trigggering the zombies.

* If that alarm system block looks already well destroyed, you could argue that the rest of the alarm system must be hidden somewhere and still working. Now I would bet that most players won't make that connection until they have seen it dozens of times. For me an audio cue, i.e. an alarm sound going off the moment you enter the auto-trigger zone, would be preferable because everyone will get the right idea the first time.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)

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2 hours ago, meganoth said:

For me an audio cue, i.e. an alarm sound going off the moment you enter the auto-trigger zone, would be preferable because everyone will get the right idea the first time.

This would be fine but there still can't be visual speakers even though they exist because then players will cut through walls to destroy the speakers and be angry when they enter the room and the alarm still goes off and the room still auto-aggros.

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I do agree that a simple audio queue would be best here but would have to something outside the player control. For example a zombie sound or other natural sound like thunder which has no possible link to a block or item.

 

If we look at Bloodmoons they have a lot of visual and audio queues that something bad is about to happen. So it would make sense that auto aggro volumes would have a much more scaled down warning.

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1 hour ago, Roland said:

This would be fine but there still can't be visual speakers even though they exist because then players will cut through walls to destroy the speakers and be angry when they enter the room and the alarm still goes off and the room still auto-aggros.

Exactly. I probably should have said "**pure** audio cue" to avoid misunderstandings.

 

The player might ask "What made that alarm go off?" like he asks "What makes the zombies bleed?" or "How can the traders survive blood moon?" and it will be one of the mysteries he'll never solve.

 

39 minutes ago, Danidas said:

I do agree that a simple audio queue would be best here but would have to something outside the player control. For example a zombie sound or other natural sound like thunder which has no possible link to a block or item.

 

If we look at Bloodmoons they have a lot of visual and audio queues that something bad is about to happen. So it would make sense that auto aggro volumes would have a much more scaled down warning.

Sorry, but the audio cue is not for warning the player (this is a trap, POI designers surely celebrate whenever another 1000 players fell victim to their traps 😄). The audio cue is to EXPLAIN the trap to the player, it is for immersion.

 

If you hear an alarm and find no alarm klaxon, what would you think? Well, either you haven't found it or it was destroyed by a zombie or the speaker was embedded somewhere, for example in a wall or it was part of that PC in the other room. Did you look inside the PC case? Nope, because you can't.

 

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)

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15 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Sorry, but the audio cue is not for warning the player (this is a trap, POI designers surely celebrate whenever another 1000 players fell victim to their traps 😄). The audio cue is to EXPLAIN the trap to the player, it is for immersion.

 

If you hear an alarm and find no alarm klaxon, what would you think? Well, either you haven't found it or it was destroyed by a zombie or the speaker was embedded somewhere, for example in a wall or it was part of that PC in the other room. Did you look inside the PC case? Nope, because you can't.

Sorry should of been more clear, as what I was going for is a sound after the trap has been sprung to explain the trap. But for it to be a natural sound from a zombie, animal, or natural effect that is not tangible. Which will naturally work best if it uses a random sound every time or at least most of the time.

 

Basically I don't like the idea of using a sound that can be even remotely tied to a block.

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3 hours ago, meganoth said:

Excellent point. Now making a similar visual cue for the auto-trigger rooms is the hard part. Anyone with a good idea?

 

I got two:

* A block that looks like an alarm system somewhere inside the room that has enough hitpoints so no normal player can destroy it in one hit. The disadvantage is that even this simple idea needs devs time. If you hit the box, the auto-trigger area has to trigger as well. If not, players will except that they can destroy the box and then enter the area without trigggering the zombies.

* If that alarm system block looks already well destroyed, you could argue that the rest of the alarm system must be hidden somewhere and still working. Now I would bet that most players won't make that connection until they have seen it dozens of times. For me an audio cue, i.e. an alarm sound going off the moment you enter the auto-trigger zone, would be preferable because everyone will get the right idea the first time.

I like the alarm system idea.

From the top of my head, I've thought of a couple, might be able to come up with new ideas later, but for now they are:

 

- Pressure plates. One of the most underused systems in the game (I believe.. as I never see people using them - probably due to the fact they used to be bugged and cause lag) could be reversed to actually being used: Let's say that now-late-survivors tried setting up defense mechanisms to warn them about zombies coming in.. well, they perished and now they are zombies trapped inside their own safehouse and we activate their traps. (Could also be trip wires, but I figured pressure plates could use some love and would be more interesting if you could make them blend in with the floor - have them painted with the same color and blend in with plate blocks for height accuracy)

 

- Barricades. This would sort of ruin the idea of intended unobstructed path, but it could be used in a way that fits a concept: just like the ide above, former survivors barricated themselves in an area, they still perished and now are the zombies in there. You have to break through their barricades in order to advance, but in doing so, you wake them up. We already have barricades in the game, but they serve no purpose other than to block an unintended path, so I figured we could step up their game and bring in a little more meaning to them.

 

- Defect Blocks. You know those rotten blocks you step on and they give in into the ground? (not the ones that drop you into the basement or anything like that.. those that are just 1 block deep - usually found on small houses) What if the sound of those blocks breaking would wake up the zombies? 

Another related idea would be having defected blocks fall whenever you walk into an area (either by setting up a trap or just the vibration of your footsteps on old wooden floors/walls) and that would trigger the zombies. After all, a falling block makes quite some noise.. you destroy POIs/drop mine and you'll see it even calling screamers because of heat/noise.

 

- Hubcap mines. With either some sort of alarm triggering or acting like a flashbang. Nothing that would actually harm you, but would draw attention. Just thought they only seem fit on military camps and are poorly used on any other POIs designs.

 

- Warning sign: the good old visual clue left by a survivor that had been there a long time ago and barely escaped alive: "DEAD INSIDE" written off in blood on a wall.  Well.. at least you were warned, right? (easy to make: just a texture paint, could even be used for memes)

 

And last, but not least, following up on this idea:

3 hours ago, Danidas said:

I do agree that a simple audio queue would be best here but would have to something outside the player control. For example a zombie sound


- A POI Screamer/Siren/Witch (L4D2): The main concept would be having a zombie in an area that you NEED to go through (forcing confrontation, as intended by the devs when making aggro rooms). She's not sleeping, but she's just standing there. If you bother her or she sees you, she screams, waking up all zombies in the immediate area. This area would be all steel blocks with room for hidden sleepers (avoiding cheesing).

If you really wanna appeal to stealthers, have her hidden or surrounded by blocks. I dont know if there's a way to code that but literally the only way to kill her and prevent her scream would be:

-> To 1-shot her it would require a shot in the head with damage (output) requirement equivalent to having hidden strike 5 + steel arrows + at least an iron xbow/wooden bow Q5 or 6  worth of damage.

->There's only one very specific angle for you to be able to hit her in the head.

 

Once she's triggered, she loses this coding, screams and is just like any other zombie - statswise.

 

 I've been nurturing this idea for a while and I know it would require designing a new zombie, but more variety = more GG, right?

 

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46 minutes ago, th3s0n1c said:

I like the alarm system idea.

From the top of my head, I've thought of a couple, might be able to come up with new ideas later, but for now they are:

Good ideas.... But:

 

Either these traps are avoidable (by breaking or avoiding the blocks or killing the POI screamer) which TFP do not, apparently, want.

Or they're unavoidable, which, as @Roland stated, would be super frustrating for people to actually see the trap but still be unable to avoid.

 

To me, the best option would be some sort of "off camera" audio signal.   Not the most immersive idea, but at least it would clue the player in to the fact that something happened.

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57 minutes ago, th3s0n1c said:

If you really wanna appeal to stealthers, have her hidden or surrounded by blocks.

Let me see if I have your suggestion correct. New special mob who is always alert that triggers off of someone entering her/his los, is hidden so the only way to see them is by entering their view (including encasing the zombie in blocks to prevent them from being sniped from outside their view), has damage mitigation greater than an A18 zombie bear till triggered, convert blocks of all aggressive volumes to steel...

I think you are confusing "appeal to" with "@%$# over"... Nothing you suggested is appealing at all from a stealth perspective, though I can see the appeal to a run n' gunner who thinks stealth  = cheating.

Edited by hiemfire (see edit history)
  • Haha 1

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