Why are the devs screwing over agi/stealth in their POI design?

[Roland]

9 hours ago, hiemfire said:

Remain aware and have a back up plan at all times.

Can we just include this for every journal entry on every subject along with a repeating sound loop of "breathe in, breathe out, breathe in, breathe out, breathe in, breathe out" for the gamers that must need these sorts of directions....?

 

Look, I am all for journal entries that give tips but as @meganoth stated they should not include any under-the-hood information. I would not state that there are locations that will automatically ambush the player. Instead, journal tips should focus on what the player can do. So something like:

 

"If you are detected by enemies while attempting stealth you can run away and crouch hidden out of sight until you are once again undetected. After a short time the enemies will forget your presence and you can return and attempt to engage them again using stealth."

 

This journal tip gives the player advice on what they can do whenever they are detected whether it is by an auto-aggro volume or they accidentally made noise or stepped into a lighted space and were seen. It tells them that enemies have a short memory and can be hidden from which, if a player didn't realize, they might think that once detected they MUST switch to guns blazing. The player doesn't really need to know about auto-aggro volumes-- they just need to know how they can respond effectively whenever they are detected for any reason.

[Boidster]

7 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

A modlet does nothing for new players, nice of you to suggest it though, and FTS's description doesn't apply to aggressive volumes (a 65% boost of 0 is still 0).

You have it backwards, in my opinion. The description specifically informs you that you will not be 100% hidden while sneaking. It's not "65% of 0", it's "65% was not good enough here."

[Kalen]

56 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

First time through/initial clear after a reset or after the 3 day respawn timer with no reset?

First time through.... did it by accident once and intentionally once.  

[Roland]

10 hours ago, Tehnomaag said:

Ideally there would be an option, during the game setup to choose to override the sleeper volume behavior. Say,

• default (sleeper volumes behave as set by the POI designers)
• all auto-agro (all volumes rush you upon entry)
• all awake (the most underused flag, zombies are fully awake and with all senses on, but to no rush you outright before detecting you)
• all asleep (the "normal" sleepers upon whom you can practically step before they take note of you)
• all auto-agro volumes are instead turned into "awake" volumes

would be ideal. That way all the people who are happy as clams with the things as they currently hare can just not change that option, while all the people who do have some kind of problem with things as they are have an option to choose something that fits them better. 

 

Personally, I would not be opposed to options like this. But that is probably because I did not design a single POI. Including this in the game would be a tough sell for TFP because they have handcrafted the POI's and designed them with intent. Honestly, I'm just glad they still allow us to choose our own way and don't force us down the suggested pathway through the gauntlet...

 

The volumes are chosen purposefully to create specific gameplay experiences and risk of death to be sure but more importantly hopes of narrow escapes that result in players relating their gripping stories of survival to their friends. It is why they have resisted just creating procedurally generated rooms and interiors that would randomize the insides of POI's so they would be different every time you went in. The dungeon POI's are designed to play out in the way the designer wants it to be done and TFP want for every single POI in the game to be a hand-crafted design.

 

I really doubt they will just option out their work. It would be like a DM spending all week planning out an adventure for his group and coming up with all sorts of contingency plans that will challenge them depending on the choices he anticipates that they might make and then when Friday night comes around and they sit down to the table one of the players asks if they can implement an optional rule that would negate what the DM had planned. That option might result in a fun time for the players and maybe that DM would allow it during a future session but most likely he would say "No way and by the way, you've contracted a temporary facial skin rash that lowers your Charisma to 2 for the next 2 weeks of game time...."

 

Now, with any offering there will be those who disagree with the design and think it is lousy and unfair and bad. That is to be expected. But, I agree with you that your listed options would be fun to play around with. The POI's aren't MY babies.

[Krougal]

Now I'll have to admit I didn't know about the auto-aggro volumes before this discussion.

I always just assumed I screw up from time to time, which of course I see now is ludicrous!

 

While I don't like heavy-handed scripted events in general, I can't complain that they are over-used or overly punishing. If this were a game like Thief or Styx where getting spotted and/or having to kill means failure (in expert) then I too would be pissed, but it isn't. Kill the zeds and move on. People complaining that it wasn't disclosed to them that stealth might not be 100% effective in all circumstances really makes me SMH. I feel like some of you are just trolling at this point. This has turned into a tempest in a teapot. Maybe TFP should add: "Warning, you may be killed by zeds" to every description and every journal entry to prevent any future incidents like this.

 

Honestly stealth is broken all around. I use the silencer more for effect than because it seems necessary, unlike other zombie games noise doesn't do much and seems to follow very strange rules. If sneaking the arrow in the head won't wake up the zed next to it, if not sneaking it will. That makes sense right? 😛

 

I haven't delved into POI creation but from this discussion and my own observations, I'm guessing it all has to do with the way the rooms are designed. Sometimes I can run past a building and everything in it aggros. Other times I can tear half the building down before a zed notices.

 

I seem to remember back before the days of POIs it being more like State of Decay where shooting unsupressed guns brings every zed in the area, and so it was an option of last resort. 

 

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, Krougal said:

Now I'll have to admit I didn't know about the auto-aggro volumes before this discussion.

I always just assumed I screw up from time to time, which of course I see now is ludicrous!

 

While I don't like heavy-handed scripted events in general, I can't complain that they are over-used or overly punishing. If this were a game like Thief or Styx where getting spotted and/or having to kill means failure (in expert) then I too would be pissed, but it isn't. Kill the zeds and move on. People complaining that it wasn't disclosed to them that stealth might not be 100% effective in all circumstances really makes me SMH. I feel like some of you are just trolling at this point. This has turned into a tempest in a teapot. Maybe TFP should add: "Warning, you may be killed by zeds" to every description and every journal entry to prevent any future incidents like this.

 

Honestly stealth is broken all around. I use the silencer more for effect than because it seems necessary, unlike other zombie games noise doesn't do much and seems to follow very strange rules. If sneaking the arrow in the head won't wake up the zed next to it, if not sneaking it will. That makes sense right? 😛

 

I haven't delved into POI creation but from this discussion and my own observations, I'm guessing it all has to do with the way the rooms are designed. Sometimes I can run past a building and everything in it aggros. Other times I can tear half the building down before a zed notices.

 

I seem to remember back before the days of POIs it being more like State of Decay where shooting unsupressed guns brings every zed in the area, and so it was an option of last resort. 

 

Stealth isn't broken, it may be unintuitive. You are the center of noise, even if the loudest sound is the panel breaking from an arrow you shot. There is also a random modifier involved (I suspect) so shooting a weapon 5 meters away from a zombie will not wake it in every case or let it sleep in every case.

 

This may make it difficult to notice the effect of a silencer. But seriously: Try to stealth your way through a poi once with and once without a silencer. You will notice a difference.

 

It is rather obvious that distance has a much larger effect on sound in the game than in reality. In reality you shoot a magnun and not only the full room, but every house in the neighborhood is on full alert. You shoot a magnum in the game and the chance that a zombie 12 meters away is woken is (at a guess) already less than 50%.

 

[Krougal]

8 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Stealth isn't broken, it may be unintuitive. You are the center of noise, even if the loudest sound is the panel breaking from an arrow you shot. There is also a random modifier involved (I suspect) so shooting a weapon 5 meters away from a zombie will not wake it in every case or let it sleep in every case.

 

This may make it difficult to notice the effect of a silencer. But seriously: Try to stealth your way through a poi once with and once without a silencer. You will notice a difference.

 

It is rather obvious that distance has a much larger effect on sound in the game than in reality. In reality you shoot a magnun and not only the full room, but every house in the neighborhood is on full alert. You shoot a magnum in the game and the chance that a zombie 12 meters away is woken is (at a guess) already less than 50%.

 

There is still sneaking or not sneaking. If I shoot a zed in the head with a silenced pistol it is still going to wake every zed in the room if I am not crouched.

Another example is when things go south with this strategy, I resort to the Dirty Harry special which yes, all the zeds in the room were already alerted so it's moot, but it doesn't seem to draw zeds from the rest of the house.

The way noise works is a lot of what I consider broken (possibly even the cause of all of it). 

It works well enough for game purposes once you get used to it, but it's still a @%$#ty system.

[Boidster]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

The volumes are chosen purposefully to create specific gameplay experiences and risk of death to be sure but more importantly quickly dashed hopes of narrow escapes that result in players relating their gripping stories of survival grisly death to their friends.

Fixt for my lived reality.

[Danidas]

I think the way the game works is all noise is emitted from the player no matter where logic would otherwise dictate it's source to be. As for said noise it diminishes for each block it has to travel by a certain amount or percent and zombies are only looking for sound events over a certain threshold. When you sneak it muffles all of your sound based on your sneak modifier that takes light levels and possible other items into account. Naturally with the effect of reducing your sound to hopefully be lower then the zombies threshold to wake. Also different actions produce different amounts of noise and only the actions the devs set to produce noise will do so.

 

As for zombies the game uses rather aggressive limits on zombies in the world. For example none of the zombies in a POI exist until you cross into one of the cube shaped sleeper volumes the level designer setup that activates the spawn points with in it. Which said sleeper volumes are always draw around different rooms or parts of the POI to setup specific encounters based on the whims of the designer. 

[hiemfire]

3 hours ago, Kalen said:

First time through.... did it by accident once and intentionally once.  

I have an image in my head of your first time triggering it that way being from getting launched upwards by one of the diabolical diagonal catwalks right under the room.

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

You are the center of noise, even if the loudest sound is the panel breaking from an arrow you shot.

Something I hope they adjust sometime, even if it makes stealth harder.

 

3 hours ago, Boidster said:

So I tried Ranger Station 06. Cleaned out lower floors, then went to top floor, two zombies drop from ceiling, I run downstairs and hide behind the yellow pallet. Zombies come down stairs and then just meander about.

 

Still after the point of failure.

Day time (just curious on this part)?

Also, run passed the threat to get away from the threat is really counterintuitive, though it might be possible there via backing out the window and dropping down a floor. Thank you for testing that one (honestly this is the only Aggressive Volume that has been specifically confirmed to me). My grumping aside you at least demonstrated they don't have the Blood Moon auto track when their volume is triggered. 

3 hours ago, Boidster said:

This was with only 3 ranks in FTS.

 

Interesting mod.

[hiemfire]

3 hours ago, Roland said:

"If you are detected by enemies while attempting stealth you can run away and crouch hidden out of sight until you are once again undetected. After a short time the enemies will forget your presence and you can return and attempt to engage them again using stealth."

Might help.

[Krougal]

3 hours ago, Boidster said:

 

 

Unrelated but, hey what mod is that?

[Kalen]

59 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

I have an image in my head of your first time triggering it that way being from getting launched upwards by one of the diabolical diagonal catwalks right under the room.

Hah.... and you are 100% correct

[hiemfire]

10 minutes ago, Kalen said:

Hah.... and you are 100% correct

I hate those, my wife is absolutely terrified of them. She had one toss her to the bottom of the Shamway Factory storage silo from the exterior mid high gantry on it.

[Boidster]

8 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

Still after the point of failure.

Day time (just curious on this part)?

Also, run passed the threat to get away from the threat is really counterintuitive, though it might be possible there via backing out the window and dropping down a floor).

Yeah, I get that you and I will never agree on the definition of "failure" here. The game specifically tells you that sneaking is not 100% effective. <shrug>

 

The test was in day time. I did not run past the threat, I did what I assume any player surprised by sudden ceiling zombies would do: I ran right the f*** back the way I came and looked for an object to hide behind (I previously had zero experience with ranger_station_06). It worked, and I was able to stealth-kill the zombies. <shrug again>

 

Ceiling zombie is watching you sneak...

40 minutes ago, Krougal said:

Unrelated but, hey what mod is that?

SMX UI

[hiemfire]

3 minutes ago, Boidster said:

The test was in day time. I did not run past the threat, I did what I assume any player surprised by sudden ceiling zombies would do: I ran right the f*** back the way I came and looked for an object to hide behind (I previously had zero experience with ranger_station_06). It worked, and I was able to stealth-kill the zombies. <shrug again>

So basement via the hole in the lower balcony supports in the back first? If so you went passed the POI's end loot on the way into the tower. Interesting, I found that route after following the lit one (takes you through the front utility access and over the broken antenna to the upper balcony) first. Entrance from the upper balcony is via a window with a noise trap on the sill (probably one of the things that irks me about the ranger stations, breaking the noise traps does nothing for you). Tried Ranger Station 7 (it's the one with the Station 69 sign out front) yet? The puppies love company.

[linewalker]

I'm trying to figure out why you need the game to tell you every little thing. 

 

Are you not capable of learning from experience?

[Boidster]

1 hour ago, hiemfire said:

So basement via the hole in the lower balcony supports in the back first? If so you went passed the POI's end loot on the way into the tower. Interesting, I found that route after following the lit one (takes you through the front utility access and over the broken antenna to the upper balcony) first.

Hmm...well I was not testing the One True Path vs other paths. I was only meaning to test "can I hide from auto-aggro zombies in the upper floor of the tower of ranger_station_06". I god-mode killed zombies on other floors (with AI disabled), then left god mode and sneaked up the stairs to the upper floor (it would be the underground path that gets you to those stairs). Zombies dropped and aggroed, there was some running, and they lost track of me after I hid behind the pallet.

 

I did try the other path just now, going through the window. After they aggroed I ran back around the balcony to behind some shamway boxes and they lost interest pretty quickly. It was daytime so being on the shaded side of the building helped.

[Lesdeth]

On 10/6/2020 at 8:02 AM, hiemfire said:

Okay, fair. So caught up in it my part of it I forgot about the guy who thinks sneaking around in heavy armor successfully should be a thing...

I said I tried to use light armor with an agi build on my difficulty and when you get jumped you die pretty much instantly, from auto aggro rooms to screamers outside causing hordes. You are stuck throwing grenades no matter what. Yeah, I am so sorry that I don't play on scrub settings... There should be a reason to use light armor and stealth. As it is now, it is completely worthless.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Lesdeth said:

Yeah, I am so sorry that I don't play on scrub settings...

No need to play on scrub settings bro. You’re just playing higher than your own skill level for a stealth approach. If you don’t want stealth to be “impossible” at your current settings and you refuse to lower the settings to the point where you can be successful with stealth, then your only Option is to mod. Go in and change all the auto aggro rooms to something easier for you. 

[Krougal]

51 minutes ago, Roland said:

No need to play on scrub settings bro. You’re just playing higher than your own skill level for a stealth approach. If you don’t want stealth to be “impossible” at your current settings and you refuse to lower the settings to the point where you can be successful with stealth, then your only Option is to mod. Go in and change all the auto aggro rooms to something easier for you. 

Roland! You just don't get it. You seem to think people learn a game and then adjust the difficulty level up to give themselves more challenge. That is not how it is done.

Playing on the most difficult settings is purely for epeen bragging rights. Otherwise the people who play on those settings wouldn't complain so much.

So it should be easy enough for them to do as they wish just so they can play on that level and look down on the rest of us, and they will start playing the game on those settings from day 1.

 

Game balanced around default settings? That's just crazy talk...

[Kalen]

35 minutes ago, Krougal said:

Playing on the most difficult settings is purely for epeen bragging rights. Otherwise the people who play on those settings wouldn't complain so much.

So it should be easy enough for them to do as they wish just so they can play on that level and look down on the rest of us, and they will start playing the game on those settings from day 1.

Yup, play on the hardest setting then complain that the game is hard.   Demand the game is changed so that the hardest settings are easier and talk down to "scrubs" that play on lower settings.   Seems reasonable  🙄

[Lesdeth]

I didn't complain that the game was hard. Wow you guys are a bit dense. I said Stealth is useless on my settings. Insane, Always Nightmare means light armor does next to nothing to keep you alive. Auto aggro rooms wreck your face. Wandering hordes will @%$# you.

 

You guys seem to be straw manning because your arguments are pretty bad... Basically your conclusion is: If you want stealth to work, lower your difficulty. That is quite idiotic...

[Kalen]

28 minutes ago, Lesdeth said:

Basically your conclusion is: If you want stealth to work, lower your difficulty.

Almost correct.... if YOU want stealth to work for YOU, lower your difficulty.

 

Its true that I don't play with the settings you do, but I know people that do... and they don't seem to have the same trouble you're having with stealth.

[Lesdeth]

5 minutes ago, Kalen said:

Almost correct.... if YOU want stealth to work for YOU, lower your difficulty.

 

Its true that I don't play with the settings you do, but I know people that do... and they don't seem to have the same trouble you're having with stealth.

I have watched a lot of people that play with the settings I do. It is always run and gun heavy armor, because Light armor is garbage on insane. Post day 30, you will get destroyed. What is wrong with you Kalen? You don't play on these settings and you say "I know people that do." Are you joking or something with your argument? No one stealths on Insane Always Nightmare. It is stupid to say that they do...