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~Kevin~

So long 19, going back to 16

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It is curious that the spikes are treated like a block, but from my experiences the barbed wire isn't? Why wouldn't they both be treated the same, since you can walk through both. I like having trenches full of spikes, but I do believe placing spikes on the surface should work as well, sure it's less efficient but in the early game being able to just slap down some "oh s**t!" spikes would be nice. I know the game isn't going for realism, but if a zombie truly is braindead wouldn't it just walk towards it's target, regardless of what's in it's way?

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5 minutes ago, Vanetooth said:

It is curious that the spikes are treated like a block, but from my experiences the barbed wire isn't? Why wouldn't they both be treated the same, since you can walk through both. I like having trenches full of spikes, but I do believe placing spikes on the surface should work as well, sure it's less efficient but in the early game being able to just slap down some "oh s**t!" spikes would be nice. I know the game isn't going for realism, but if a zombie truly is braindead wouldn't it just walk towards it's target, regardless of what's in it's way?

Zombies see spikes in a similar way that they see blocks.   So ask yourself what you would expect if you dropped a block?   Would you expect the zombie to walk around it or try and walk through it?

 

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That's what I find weird, why would they perceive them as blocks when you can't actually stand on spikes. You can pass through barbed wire and spikes, yet they treat spikes like blocks and not barbed wire? My opinion, but spikes shouldn't be considered as blocks. You can't stand on them, so why would they see them as an obstacle?

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8 hours ago, alanea said:

well developers decided killing zombies by simple trench is far too easy and bulletproof with no upkeep.. so they capped hp loss to 1/3 making spikes must ....because zombies could fall in  but would dig and collapse your base

You don't need spikes. Just make an exit path for the zombie to walk out again and except for the occasional enraged zombie all still alive will try to walk out.

 

I have such a pit in my current horde base where I push them into the pit with a melee turrets (plural because it is a co-op game). I made the pit about 10 blocks deep only so the exit path wasn't too long and made the side to the base out of concrete because a few zombies enrage. Also I have a ledge to look into the pit from time to time, but it is seldom neccessary to intervene, the damage from the fall actually kills some zombies and most walk out for another round in front of our guns and top defenses. Later I added electric fences and dart traps to the exit so that even glowies usually die while trying to exit the pit.

 

16 minutes ago, Vanetooth said:

It is curious that the spikes are treated like a block, but from my experiences the barbed wire isn't? Why wouldn't they both be treated the same, since you can walk through both. I like having trenches full of spikes, but I do believe placing spikes on the surface should work as well, sure it's less efficient but in the early game being able to just slap down some "oh s**t!" spikes would be nice. I know the game isn't going for realism, but if a zombie truly is braindead wouldn't it just walk towards it's target, regardless of what's in it's way?

AFAIK barbed wire is treated as a block as well (even more jarring if you look at it).  I usually put them into trenches around the horde base and they get damaged or even removed everywhere, not only in a single spot.

 

The notion that they would walk into a highly visible trap like a spike trap is VERY "unrealistic". Braindead zombies (in any movie I have ever seen) are intelligent enough to go through doors instead of walking into a wall. So they CAN recognize matter blocking their way like a dog or an insect can. A spike trap as depicted in the game would be seen as a thingy blocking your way by any human-sized creature with the intelligence to recognize blocking matter.

 

 

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In World War Z they are seen just throwing their bodies at people, be it through fences, doors or even vehicles(like when they tipped the bus over or scaled the wall). In the Walking Dead they are seen just piling up against walls and spikes, literally a few scenes where they literally just walk into a spike and get impaled trying to eat people. Only other zombie movie I have seen was I Am Legend and there weren't many moments where he had primitive traps like spikes, he instead had explosives, which they did not avoid. Not sure which movies you have seen, but I am now intrigued.

Edit: Also just remembered the scene in WWZ where they found zekes just stuck in barbed wire fences all over the place.

Edited by Vanetooth (see edit history)
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36 minutes ago, Vanetooth said:

That's what I find weird, why would they perceive them as blocks when you can't actually stand on spikes. You can pass through barbed wire and spikes, yet they treat spikes like blocks and not barbed wire? My opinion, but spikes shouldn't be considered as blocks. You can't stand on them, so why would they see them as an obstacle?

I would guess they're treated as blocks because they are a visible obstacle.  

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29 minutes ago, Vanetooth said:

In World War Z they are seen just throwing their bodies at people, be it through fences, doors or even vehicles(like when they tipped the bus over or scaled the wall). In the Walking Dead they are seen just piling up against walls and spikes, literally a few scenes where they literally just walk into a spike and get impaled trying to eat people. Only other zombie movie I have seen was I Am Legend and there weren't many moments where he had primitive traps like spikes, he instead had explosives, which they did not avoid. Not sure which movies you have seen, but I am now intrigued.

Edit: Also just remembered the scene in WWZ where they found zekes just stuck in barbed wire fences all over the place.

Mmmh, there is a good case to be made for zombies in most movies only being able to smell and hear. They would sense doors by the smell or sound coming out of it.

 

In WWZ especially you could argue that the zombies are going by smell or sounds for most of the movie I think. But still the zeds seemed to know where the doors are even to hermetically sealed rooms if I remember the last confrontation in the lab correctly.

 

If there is no way to the living like when there is just a wall around jerusalem they pile onto walls and fences, that is true for 7D2D as well, not an indication whether they see doors or not.

 

I'm not talking about scenes with zombies in fences. If they can see anything in such a movie my argument goes they could also see (non-hidden massive) traps as objects and walk around them as well (even if their sight is heavily reduced). But I would have to watch lots of movies again to make certain the zombie couldn't just smell or hear. If anyone remembers a scene where a zombie sees a guy in >100 meters distance immediately that would help. I know one from a Romero movie, but he was the intelligent zombie leader. I know lots from humorous zombie movies but they probably don't count.

 

Even if we say zombies only smell or hear in most movies (and interpret that to find openings), my less stringent argument is that this is only possible for an intelligent being. It isn't a stretch to assume zombies can see as well, especially in a game where they obviously fix their gaze on you.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Vanetooth said:

That's what I find weird, why would they perceive them as blocks when you can't actually stand on spikes. You can pass through barbed wire and spikes, yet they treat spikes like blocks and not barbed wire? My opinion, but spikes shouldn't be considered as blocks. You can't stand on them, so why would they see them as an obstacle?

Sorry, but you actually can stand on spikes.

 

I made a fast test right now: Set a spike trap on the ground beside a wood block and stepped on it. While the trap was hurting me I was standing slightly lower than on the wood block but still about 4/5th of a block above ground. When the spike trap was destroyed I fell down the rest of the way to the street.

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That's interesting, I haven't personally tried but I just assumed you fell through them, since I consistently have zombies at the bottom of my spike trenches despite the top layer being intact. Maybe  they just glitched down, not too sure as I haven't been looking too closely. As for the zombies being able to see, thinking about it now, it makes sense that they can. In I Am Legend they clearly can see the guy through the glass. As for WWZ you have a point, that should have been air tight, yet somehow the zeke knew where the door was, my best guess is that either they can see, or the zeke could just smell where the guy had been? I imagine if they have hyper senses of hearing and scent that they could potentially tell where you have been, kinda like a hound follows a trail. The guy had to touch the keypad to open the door and stood there for a fair bit. Also if I remember correctly the zombie was already chasing him and the door just closed behind the human mid pursuit, so it is also likely that the zombie was just following him and then started running into the door. Not too sure tho, been a while since I've seen the movies.

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Something I learned a long time ago when it came to self awareness.  I hate to bring philosophy to a flame war, and I expect to get ignored, but.. for those that might appreciate:

 

(Paraphrasing) Mark Twain said something to the effect that those that feel the desire to complain have a mountain of reasons to choose from.

 

So, you CAN in fact live with a skeptical eye upon everything, but the moment you let it become the only lens you look at things with, then you become a hammer and every problem that arises starts to look like nails.  I dont care if its and intended feature or if it wasn't.  Up until shortly after this thread, I stopped using spikes (and even barb wire) altogether.  Missing neither of these things didn't break the game for me.

 

I guess what im leading up to is, take responsibility for your own brand of pessimism.   The world owes you nothing.  It was here long before you were.  

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6 minutes ago, Ramethzer0 said:

I stopped using spikes (and even barb wire) altogether.

I stopped using spikes (and even barb wire)

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4 hours ago, Vanetooth said:

It is curious that the spikes are treated like a block, but from my experiences the barbed wire isn't? Why wouldn't they both be treated the same, since you can walk through both. I like having trenches full of spikes, but I do believe placing spikes on the surface should work as well, sure it's less efficient but in the early game being able to just slap down some "oh s**t!" spikes would be nice. I know the game isn't going for realism, but if a zombie truly is braindead wouldn't it just walk towards it's target, regardless of what's in it's way?

 

barbed wire isnt classic  block it  behave like half block  you can stand on it and it blocks your movement but it doesnt  zombies can try slip through  blocks with smaller  "collision"  but technically it takes still whole block

( you cant put anything else in samer block as barbed wire, )

 

you can see this mechanic best with  plates

 you can  rotate plate  to levitate on top part of block ...  but  still being supported by block under it  .. even barbed wires  can hold  barbed wires flying next to them  because from technical side its still full block

4 hours ago, Vanetooth said:

That's what I find weird, why would they perceive them as blocks when you can't actually stand on spikes. You can pass through barbed wire and spikes, yet they treat spikes like blocks and not barbed wire? My opinion, but spikes shouldn't be considered as blocks. You can't stand on them, so why would they see them as an obstacle?

 spikes damage you and get damaged but they block movement  .. unless you jump on them in such case you stand ont hem as any other block till they break ...  log spikes were different .... they were like  1/2  block  so zombies could walk into them ... but old dumb zombies didnt bother if  you put log spikes on groundf instead in  1 deep hole they would punch spike as obstacle

 

overall if you choose to  you can basically build base from spikes or even barbed wires

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

You don't need spikes. Just make an exit path for the zombie to walk out again and except for the occasional enraged zombie all still alive will try to walk out.

yeah well we talked about old times  where they  introduced this cap ...  16 and earlier zombies  were too dumb to path  more than  3-4  blocks  around  so didnt wouldnt see ramp out as a way  in a16  when you made 10 blocks  long wall in open terrain you will find it  sooner or later full of holes because zombies cant  find way around and punch through it  .. thats also why  waking zombies inside poi made issues ...  because you usually ended with  3-4  holes per side of house and zombies falling out :D

Quote

I have such a pit in my current horde base where I push them into the pit with a melee turrets (plural because it is a co-op game). I made the pit about 10 blocks deep only so the exit path wasn't too long and made the side to the base out of concrete because a few zombies enrage. Also I have a ledge to look into the pit from time to time, but it is seldom neccessary to intervene, the damage from the fall actually kills some zombies and most walk out for another round in front of our guns and top defenses. Later I added electric fences and dart traps to the exit so that even glowies usually die while trying to exit the pit.

 yeah well they made clearly some mistake while buffing melee turret ... i highly doubt it stays this way as its ridiculous and op to throw fat zombie  3blocks away  and dog  / vulture ocasionaly even  15-20 blocks

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AFAIK barbed wire is treated as a block as well (even more jarring if you look at it).  I usually put them into trenches around the horde base and they get damaged or even removed everywhere, not only in a single spot.

well barbed wires get damaged when they deal damage  so even if zombies ignored them they would break soon or later (unless you abuse that bug for noobs with garage door that magically allow barbed wite damage zombies through them but prevent wire fromdtaking durability damage)

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The notion that they would walk into a highly visible trap like a spike trap is VERY "unrealistic". Braindead zombies (in any movie I have ever seen) are intelligent enough to go through doors instead of walking into a wall. So they CAN recognize matter blocking their way like a dog or an insect can. A spike trap as depicted in the game would be seen as a thingy blocking your way by any human-sized creature with the intelligence to recognize blocking matter.

well 7 days zombies are supernatural and quite smart to start with  ..  not braindead keep in mind they have scouts ..  fiind forges .. hide on unreachable places to ambush prey  .. see path around obstacles for significant distance .. and even recognize that steel block is more durable than concrete  not to mention ability to climb laders or even realize exact distance they can jump ( i dont see  movie zombies make  26 meter jumps or take several bullets to head and keep walking btw)

 

traps are more about practical decision ... TFP  make clear  two things at every corner gameplay decisions>realism/immersion/logic

1) if they avoided spikes  then even very cheap  wood spikes  could discourage them more than endgame steel block

2) apart of that spikes would be useless if they decided to go around them and smash throught  some unprotected wall

 

spikes are clearly designed as turning resources into  "weapon"  that hurt some zombies  + slow them

same as doors exist to give you time while zombies trying to break them   if  they didnt ignored them as obstacle  zombies wouldnt  come to your vault doors  but smash random blocks instead

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

Mmmh, there is a good case to be made for zombies in most movies only being able to smell and hear. They would sense doors by the smell or sound coming out of it.

noise =they can hear you (you make noise by most things ... sneak just reduce it)

heat =  shooting breaking blocks or using (open fires ... but also workbench or alchemys tation) increase heat ="zombie attention ? " once your each some point zombies will come for you

smell =  was ingame mechanic if you carried meat  ... but it was removed   probably because it didnt worked too well and had sno significant impact

whats still ingame as far i know is spawning zombies around dead animals after some time

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If there is no way to the living like when there is just a wall around jerusalem they pile onto walls and fences, that is true for 7D2D as well, not an indication whether they see doors or not.

 in  7days its side effect  of mechanic that make them aim for same  block  they all want   hit that   vulnerable damaged spot .. but if theres too many they start pilling up  jumping on each other if they manage to pile up enought  to be  1 block under top they will jump on it  ... its kinda good thing i guess making  2  high wall quite unsafe 5+  mostly safe

Quote

I'm not talking about scenes with zombies in fences. If they can see anything in such a movie my argument goes they could also see (non-hidden massive) traps as objects and walk around them as well (even if their sight is heavily reduced). But I would have to watch lots of movies again to make certain the zombie couldn't just smell or hear. If anyone remembers a scene where a zombie sees a guy in >100 meters distance immediately that would help. I know one from a Romero movie, but he was the intelligent zombie leader. I know lots from humorous zombie movies but they probably don't count.

 

Even if we say zombies only smell or hear in most movies (and interpret that to find openings), my less stringent argument is that this is only possible for an intelligent being. It isn't a stretch to assume zombies can see as well, especially in a game where they obviously fix their gaze on you.

yeah problem is zombies arent one specific thing  there is like  50 variations of zombies that appeared in culture ,, most people love the dumb blind slow and weak rotten bodies from series like walking dead  .. but then we have stuff like last of  us  .. were are zombies quite boosted ... usually with some disadvantage  ( like clickers ... blind  but very sensitive to sounds .. also far stronger and faster than human)

 

to stuff like resident evil (cant say i know much about this universe)  but some zombies there are super fast super strong etc as well as smart ( using guns or vehicles )

and yes some zombies over universes can even communicate or form society

doom zombies are known for use of guns as well

Edited by alanea (see edit history)

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21 hours ago, katarynna said:

Zombies are not avoiding elevated spikes. Zombies are pathing around obstacles in their way.

 

A spike trap placed on the ground is treated by zombies just as a flagstone block placed on the ground. If there is open space to the sides, they go around it.

 

A spike trap sunk one block down into the ground is treated by zombies just like the ground is. They walk over it because it is not an obstacle in their path.

 

It is intended that zombies path around obstacles when they can. It is not intended that they see a spike trap sunk one block down so that it is level with the ground, recognize that it is a trap that will damage them, and therefore avoid it.

Except that that is not a hard and fast rule. I run horde nights on the ground, with spikes lining both sides of a road. Once they clear a path thru the spike they will NOT all funnel thru it to avoid the spikes. They WILL and DO run into the spikes just 10 or so spikes away.....

20 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

might be because you are on a flat terrain or something... I can just tell what I have experienced. In A18 it was 100% the case and in my limited time with A19 i can tell that at least my one base only got damaged from one side (even though it was the same distance in each direction) and all Z's were clumped on one spot.


About the spikes: No matter if intended or not, it shouldnt be. It is unintuitive, it doesnt look right (like the upside down spikeslogs) and I feel like Z's shouldnt see traps as Blocks and just walk right into them. Avoiding traps means that you need a hallway to FORCE them through traps (or make like a 1 deep trench that looks weird. Does it at least work in the way of slowing them down the right amount?)

I have loved very very many things Fataal did. Of all the Fun Pimps, he is definatly my favourite. Always trying to answer questions as best as he can and more or less always beeing very polite even on multiple repeated questions.
But this is flatout a mistake in my eyes. It has no ingame benefit. It might have a coding benefit. But simply looking at the ingame effect, it is worse in basicially every way.

They came from all sides in A18, also in A17. I have videos of horde nights showing it on YT. Even if they spawn off the side of a hill as shown in my A17 series in the snow biome.

 

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I know people depiction of zombies are different. Personally I lean towards the slow braindead ones that are only a threat because of their numbers, not their wits. But one thing I think I have noticed in almost every zombie movie/game/show is that they generally don't have a sense of self preservation. The closest comparable thing to Zombies or a zeke virus is rabies, and animals with rabies don't care if they get hurt. Again, I know this depends on the person, but in my opinion they should not avoid spikes or barbed wire. If they can supposedly see to avoid spikes at their waist level, why can't they see ones a block deep that they are about to step on? 

Just make spikes invisible to zombies, don't add them to their pathing calculation. They will take the shortest path to you ignoring the spikes, imitating a lack of self preservation and just pure desire to murder us.

1 hour ago, Ramethzer0 said:

Something I learned a long time ago when it came to self awareness.  I hate to bring philosophy to a flame war, and I expect to get ignored, but.. for those that might appreciate:

Was not aware this was a "flame war", I'm pretty chill and am rather enjoying this conversation and the difference of opinions. Been a while since I've actually had mature conversation with some pretty well educated lads :D

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14 minutes ago, Vanetooth said:

If they can supposedly see to avoid spikes at their waist level, why can't they see ones a block deep that they are about to step on? 

Again, because they don't see spikes.... they see a block in their way.   When its in the ground, it is no longer in their way.

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1 hour ago, JCrook1028 said:

...

Hmmm... the only explanation I can give is that maybe POIs and placed blocks interfere with spawns.
I've never been out that much in the open.

But I know that I was on a flat plane and I SAW them spawn in. But only from one side. The other side (we were 5 ppl) was completely ignored. We were able to concentrate fire on one side and only one other side was maybe blocked by a poi.

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1 hour ago, JCrook1028 said:

Except that that is not a hard and fast rule. I run horde nights on the ground, with spikes lining both sides of a road. Once they clear a path thru the spike they will NOT all funnel thru it to avoid the spikes. They WILL and DO run into the spikes just 10 or so spikes away.....

Sure, it all comes down to the cost of the path to you.   First of all, not all the zombies follow the same rules so maybe, for some of them, the cost of going over the spikes is less than the cost of moving around it.   Secondly, I don't know whether or not other zombies can impede their progress and add to the cost of the path.  If so, if the newly formed path through your spikes is crowded, it might cost less for other zombies to go over the spikes.   That's just speculation, though.

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1 hour ago, Kalen said:

Again, because they don't see spikes.... they see a block in their way.   When its in the ground, it is no longer in their way.

I understand that, I meant in a lore kind of way. Probably should have specified but I get why game mechanics wise they avoid spikes. I'm just trying to understand why they would make it the way they did. I can't really think up a logical reason why they would make the spikes considered as solid blocks. Based off the movies and shows I personally have seen, zombies would just charge at spikes, and the one movie I have seen that they would probably avoid them in, putting the spikes on the floor would be no different than if they were waist height. Both would be avoided. I'm just trying to understand the devs perspective, because from mine it doesn't make sense.

Edited by Vanetooth (see edit history)

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Just now, Vanetooth said:

I understand that, I meant in a lore kind of way. Probably should have specified but I get why game mechanics wise they avoid spikes. I'm just trying to understand why they would make it the way they did. I can't really think up a logical reason why they would make the spikes considered as solid blocks. Based off the movies and shows I personally have seen, zombies would just charge at spikes, and the one movie I have seen that they would probably avoid them in, putting the spikes on the floor would be no different than if they were waste height. Both would be avoided. I'm just trying to understand the devs perspective, because from mine it doesn't make sense.

Gotcha.... if I had to guess the decision was based on performance.  Adding in an exception to the pathing for something like spikes would probably be costly given the number of zombies and spikes on a typical horde night.  

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On 9/18/2020 at 4:20 PM, Liesel Weppen said:

if your base is only 50 blocks away from a dessert, vultures may spawn there and come to you.

damn them gluttony vultures :D

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1 hour ago, Vanetooth said:

I understand that, I meant in a lore kind of way. Probably should have specified but I get why game mechanics wise they avoid spikes. I'm just trying to understand why they would make it the way they did. I can't really think up a logical reason why they would make the spikes considered as solid blocks.

Really? If you were chasing someone and there were a waist-high block in the way would you hurdle it or go around?  Would your answer change if it were spikes?  Why wouldn't they be treated the same? Whether solid or not it's still an obstacle.

And just to cover all my bases: let's assume you're not a hurdler or a parkour master.

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8 hours ago, Z-B said:

Really? If you were chasing someone and there were a waist-high block in the way would you hurdle it or go around?  Would your answer change if it were spikes?  Why wouldn't they be treated the same? Whether solid or not it's still an obstacle.

And just to cover all my bases: let's assume you're not a hurdler or a parkour master.

In the context of the game, I would not be the one doing the chasing.

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On 9/19/2020 at 4:03 PM, meganoth said:

Mmmh, there is a good case to be made for zombies in most movies only being able to smell and hear. They would sense doors by the smell or sound coming out of it.

 

In WWZ especially you could argue that the zombies are going by smell or sounds for most of the movie I think. But still the zeds seemed to know where the doors are even to hermetically sealed rooms if I remember the last confrontation in the lab correctly.

 

If there is no way to the living like when there is just a wall around jerusalem they pile onto walls and fences, that is true for 7D2D as well, not an indication whether they see doors or not.

 

I'm not talking about scenes with zombies in fences. If they can see anything in such a movie my argument goes they could also see (non-hidden massive) traps as objects and walk around them as well (even if their sight is heavily reduced). But I would have to watch lots of movies again to make certain the zombie couldn't just smell or hear. If anyone remembers a scene where a zombie sees a guy in >100 meters distance immediately that would help. I know one from a Romero movie, but he was the intelligent zombie leader. I know lots from humorous zombie movies but they probably don't count.

 

Even if we say zombies only smell or hear in most movies (and interpret that to find openings), my less stringent argument is that this is only possible for an intelligent being. It isn't a stretch to assume zombies can see as well, especially in a game where they obviously fix their gaze on you.

I disagree with being able to sense doors, a well made door is ofter just as sound/air proof as the walls its a matter of materials.

 

Honestly the best zombie setup i seen was in an old horror movie (i cant remember the title sadly), it was about some underground area laboratory experiments. The usual incompetence of the "survivors" led to their death.

There was a guy in the movie somekind of professor who tried his best to teach a zombie how to become human again aswell as search for cures, he gets killed by one of the soo called allies in the base. As the zombies wreck havoc and kill everyone this poor shambler finds out that his father was murdered, finds the weapon he was teached how to use, tracks down the dude in the base and kills him.

 

Using the above i think the ideal setup for zombie games should be similar:

 

  1. Regular shamblers as base zombies. Bare minimal pathing intelligence, would literally impale themselves to reach you.
  2. Learners mixed into the masses of deads, they know how to path or find weakspots, certain ones even use tools against you.
  3. Mutants. The regular commonground idea for special zombies.
  4. Neutral specials, zombie types what dont necessearly attack a player but pose an extreme danger when provoked.

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18 minutes ago, Solomon said:

I disagree with being able to sense doors, a well made door is ofter just as sound/air proof as the walls its a matter of materials.

I'm sorry, I should have used the word "doorway" instead in a lot of the previous posts, it was implied that the doors were open or at the least very permeable to get sounds and smells out.

 

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On 9/18/2020 at 2:56 PM, RipClaw said:

In A16 no schematic was needed to build the forge. The last time you needed a book to build a forge was AFAIK Alpha 12.
 

I don't believe that there was a schematic for the forge, but there definitely was for the bellows. The bellows was needed for the forge. 

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