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Tehnomaag

What are the most efficient foods in a19 in regards of nutrition

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To my mild dismay it seems I do not see the recipes for foods in-game if I have not spent the points in cooking to learn the relevant recipes. So - surely someone has done the numbers and already knows what foods will give you the most "food" points per resources spent? Will these be the cooked potatoes? Corn on Cob? Or maybe vegetable or hobo stew?

 

Wiki seems to be somewhat ... outdated ... considering I have yet to get leaky bottom from eating any of the cooked or non-cooked foods and it still claims the 4% disease probability. So I have to assume wiki still has a18 numbers and so I cant trust it to be fully correct in regards of a19 content. 

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You can see the recipes.... it's just not obvious how.   When you search for the item, you need to click on the various buttons at the top

 

image.png.7b0a29de2d77e4fe075ac48cd18d9a46.png

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I've noticed the stews & the blueberry pie seem awfully filling. Don't know for sure the numbers but the meat stew is what I make 1st with all my ingredients. Definitely my go to.

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58 minutes ago, Kalen said:

You can see the recipes.... it's just not obvious how.   When you search for the item, you need to click on the various buttons at the top

 

image.png.7b0a29de2d77e4fe075ac48cd18d9a46.png

Ahh thanx for the hint. Now I know what to look. 

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I'm workin' on a thing. If it pans out I oughta have some hard numbers on this.

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Honestly, you don't really have to min/max food.   Meat Stew and Sham Chowder are my day-to-day food.   If meat is a problem, Veggie Stew (which is 100% farmable) is also good.   The best food is Spaghetti, so save those pasta and meat canned goods.

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Sheperds Pie, Gumbo Stew and Spaghetti are the most filling ones. They go from ~100-120 food with a huge stamina bonus that lasts pretty long. Not exact numbers here.

 

For those 3 you need several cannned foods and vegetables to cook them.

 

Most effiecent is propably the meat stew. Meat is easy to get in large numbers and the vegetables can be grown in your own garden.

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9 hours ago, Kalen said:

Honestly, you don't really have to min/max food.   Meat Stew and Sham Chowder are my day-to-day food.   If meat is a problem, Veggie Stew (which is 100% farmable) is also good.   The best food is Spaghetti, so save those pasta and meat canned goods.

It kind of depends on the scenario one is playing. There certainly are some scenarios where food can be a bit of an issue even mid-to-end game. Tweak few sliders, have bunch of people clumped up together in multiplayer with high stamina consumption activities and you can burn food real fast. 

 

For example, when mining I am consuming 15 food units (say, a boiled meat) about every 5 minutes. That means about 180 "food units" per hour or, roughly, 3 units of food every minute. Then tweak down loot rate some (ours is set down to 30%), increase the random walker and horde denisty some, maybe play on all snow biome where constant cold increases food consumption... 

I mean if you are clearing POI's with multiple people the amount of loot and as a result of found food is still the same as solo. You still get roughly the same amount of rotten meat to get the farm going, but with multiple people to feed will need much more food, etc. In our current game (4x4 km desert map, no loot respawn, as rough terrain as one can make in Nitrogen) we have cleared about 1 km radius around our base of yucca/cactus in our endless hunger, hitting every farm with respawning pig so that you can set your watch right by our schedule but food is still a bit of an issue. Not to the point we'd be starving to death but it has been about 10..12 h of playtime since I last was not at least hugry and my usual fed state is between hungry and very hungry somewhere. It does not help either that we cranked up the day length to 240 min, meaning there is about 9 to 12 hours between trader resets and you cant really rely on the farms with respawning pigs. At least all the cities on this map are wasteland so in our desperation we can gang up on zombie dogs and bears to get at least some rotting flesh to expand out farm, but it's like only about 40 plots currently. 

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4 hours ago, Tehnomaag said:

It kind of depends on the scenario one is playing. There certainly are some scenarios where food can be a bit of an issue even mid-to-end game. Tweak few sliders, have bunch of people clumped up together in multiplayer with high stamina consumption activities and you can burn food real fast. 

Good points, I don't generally play multiplayer anymore so I hadn't considered that.

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4 hours ago, Tehnomaag said:

It does not help either that we cranked up the day length to 240 min, meaning there is about 9 to 12 hours between trader resets and you cant really rely on the farms with respawning pigs.

It more depends on your scenarion, less on multiplayer. Longer days make it more difficult, because trader restock and vendor machines restock takes longer. How did you assume it should make it easier?

First source for food are the vending machines. Don't just use that one from the trader, bookmark every working one you can find. Don't eat the cans if possible, keep them for cooking way way better meals.

I also don't know the struggle with meat. We are still drowning in meat. There are chickens and rabbits everywhere. Wolfs in the forest and coyotes in the desert. We just kill them on our way to the next quest. Nobody ever put a point into that hunting-skill that gives you more meat, because we have way enough meat anyway.

The most difficult thing is to get up a farm in the beginning. Not by crafting the plots, but finding seeds (or become able to craft them). It is even easier in the dessert. Just go farming for vultures. Endless rotten meat.

Ironically the first "valuable" food you can craft requires one of the least occuring ressources: Eggs for bacon and egs. Once you can craft vegetable stew, meat stew, sham chowder, eggs become almost worthless (only required for the cheese cake).

If you don't find the recipies early, especially in multiplayer it should not be an issue for ONE player to put some points into Lotl (2) and Master Chef (2). I'll never get why people max out their shotguns with dozens of points but still struggle with food on day 50 because they just refuse to put 4 points into lotl an MC. Yeah, great shotgun... will it kill the ferral before you starve?

I also dunno why people even loot regular pois anymore? Yes, we do that in the first few days, when all quest pois are far away. From like day 7 we only do quests. Why loot a random building, if you can loot a freshly reset building and get an additional reward for that? That makes the loot respawn value completely irrelevant.

 

Of course food becomes a little more an issue in multiplayer, but not that much. You can loot faster, you can loot more (because every player has his own inventory) or you can split up and loot different pois/do different quests in parallel. And of course 6 players require a bigger farm then one player.

 

We usually hope to find the meat stew receipe (or better) early. We try to stay feed till then with bacon & eggs. But if we still haven't found it by day 10-14, one player makes master chef to level 2, problem solved.

Same with seeds, if we haven't found seed receips for potatoes, corn and mushrooms, one player puts the second point into lotl.

And all problems are solved.

 

Nutrition: We mostly go for sham chowder, but also use fish tacos if we have salmon cans. Hobo stew is also fine with 90 food restored. Since we usually keep our food above 50% and with level 65 the max is still "only" 165 points, shepards pie (restores 105 iirc?), tuna toast and spaghetti (i still don't have the receipe for that in our current playthrough) is still almost "overpowered". I'm still not sure if the food counter ticks down based on food consumption or in general, if overeaten.

Edited by Liesel Weppen (see edit history)
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3 minutes ago, canadianbluebeer said:

Points in Iron Stomach offset food usage too.

 

 

That is true and every bit helps, but, unfortunately, this does not really provide enlightenment in regards of what to consume in what proportions to get the most nutrition out of your farm plots / gathered meat / eggs / etc... 

 

Ofc ideally the answer would be a bit more complex than that and also would address the question of "how many farm plots you need, per person, to survive 1h in 7d2d (farms regrow every 1 h, supposedly)" and "in what proportions should what be planted to maximize the nutrition value per farm plot per time unit" and so on. 

 

For example, I know, from experience, that full on max physical activity (max trex, 1 point in iron stomach) will use 180 nutrition points per hour or 3 points per minute. I must admit that I do not know what is the idle stamina/food consumption as I have never bothered to actually time the the time it takes to start starving again after eating a piece of food after starving conditions comes on and doing nothing. So if I would only grow yucca fruit for my needs I would need 180 farm plots to keep me mining (and a lot of time, actually, spent eating yucca), but lets suppose that I'm in a position to turn that yucca into yucca smoothie, which is giving whooping 20'ish units of food, now I would need only 9 of these per hour ... 

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I don't know about the absolute efficiency but I like meat stew and steak and potatoes as day to day food.  One takes potatoes and corn the other potatoes and mushrooms so I set up my farm with double potatoes vs the other two. 

 

I save all my Sham Chowders for horde night due to it's Fortitude buff.

 

The new uber recipes are very good but kind of expensive to make as far the (somewhat limited) canned food goes so I tend to save them (and their stamina buff) for when mining or other stam heavy activities.

 

Edit...and I forgot about Pumpkin Cheesecake for shopping trips :)

 

 

Edited by Ezed (see edit history)
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23 minutes ago, Tehnomaag said:

Ofc ideally the answer would be a bit more complex than that and also would address the question of "how many farm plots you need, per person, to survive 1h in 7d2d (farms regrow every 1 h, supposedly)" and "in what proportions should what be planted to maximize the nutrition value per farm plot per time unit" and so on. 

 

[...] So if I would only grow yucca fruit for my needs I would need 180 farm plots to keep me mining (and a lot of time, actually, spent eating yucca), but lets suppose that I'm in a position to turn that yucca into yucca smoothie, which is giving whooping 20'ish units of food, now I would need only 9 of these per hour ... 

3 times potatoes, 2 times corn, 1 times mushrooms imho is a good fromula.

 

Those 3 allow you to craft vegetable stew without any additional ingredients.

The rest depends on what you loot or can buy from trader/vending machinese and the formula is derived from experience, i usually need more potatoes than corn than mushrooms. That makes a correct calculation nearly impossible, because you can't rely on what you really get. Once we have enough dukes, we basically buy everything from the vending machines (except that cans, that can't be crafted into better food (chicken soup, cat food, ...). Currently we also don't buy sham cans, because we looted tons of them (T5 sham factory quest i came out with ~40 cans of sham...).

Basically the value depends on what you have. The chili dog is imho very good. Just a chili can and one corn meal... But at least in our game, the chili cans are one of the rarest... Most times i have ressouces for 5 times sham chowder but only one for a chili dog.

Since some people seem still struggling with meat, animal fat probably is even more limited for them. Well in this case everything that requires animal fat occurs even more expensive.

 

And all this is additionally limited by what receipes (or skills) you already have.

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1/5 master chef

bacon and eggs 36 food= very simple and effective way to use meat .. adding just eggs that are everywhere ( far better than cooking them for pathetic 5 food)

 

2/5 master chef

pumpkin bread = 12 food actually best endgame food 1x pumpkin  1x corn  while it can be tricky to get hands on (you need to loot pumpkins first) its made entirely from farmable items( so can be mass farmed unlike cans) offering  6 food /farm plot

 

vegetable stew  2nd   20food    2x corn  2x mushroom 2x potato fully farmable but offers just  20/6 = 3.33  foor per farm plot

 

in  the end it all depends on

1) do you want to hunt for meat/eggs ?  = bacon and eggs

2) do you want to bother stocking up/carrying fat as well ?  =  blueberry pie

3) do you want to be depending on limited amount of cans = all of can foods are  quite effective

or you want food limited only by garden size = vegetable early / pumpkin later

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To tell truth I don't use a lot of the high calorie foods in my SP. I mean with food tied to your stamina I try to never let mine go below 85% to keep my stamina up as far as possible. So unless something awful happens I don't get much chance to use the higher foods like meat stew, sham chowder (my goto on MP though :) ). Early game is harder to keep it up but later if I can hoard enough can foods I am fine snacking frequently.

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39 minutes ago, Gamida said:

I mean with food tied to your stamina I try to never let mine go below 85% to keep my stamina up as far as possible.

Are you playing A19, or still A18?

Food consumption ist tied to stamina use. If you use stamina, you burn food.

It is NOT the other way round, that your max stamina is tied to your fullness (like iirc in A18, where you still could overeat to keep stamina at max at least for a while?).

Only if your fullness goes below 50%, stamina is reduced a little. Don't know how much exactly, but still not even close to 50%. That is sill hard in early days, when you only have 100 stamina and no skills to regenerate and/or preserve stamina, but in later-game... i'm now at level 65, so 165 stamina, 165 food, and i don't even care about the max-stamina-debuff when blow 50% food (it's like ~130 then).

Since food lasts for a while, it is anoying to eat some cans every 2 minutes, that gives only 5-15 food. If i'm down to 50%, i'd need to eat 5-6 of the better 15-food-cans to fill up again.

Edited by Liesel Weppen (see edit history)
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Some really good points made. 

 

Animal fat, as far as I can see, is a bit easier to come by than fresh meat, as you get it also from vultures, zombie dogs, all animals you might hunt, random corpses, etc ... 

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Alright I'm back with some hard numbers for everybody to argue about. I loaded up all of the food items and their recipes into my handy-dandy database and then calculated a "total ingredient cost" for each one using these relative individual costs:

 

Ingredient Cost
All crops, empty cans/jars, river water, boiled water, Corn Meal 1
Meat, bones, fat, flesh, eggs, all canned food, Sham Sandwiches, Corn Bread 2
Bottle of Acid 3

 

Using those costs plus the # of food items obtained per recipe (only applies to Cans of Sham, which give 5 per recipe), I get the following results. These are sorted by Cost-Per-Food-Point, but I have highlighted the lowest Cost-Per-Health-Point item as well.

 

Food Item Food Pts Health Pts Ingr. Cost Cost/Food Cost/Health
Fish Tacos 46 40 4 0.087 0.100
Spaghetti 122 61 12 0.098 0.197
Shepard's Pie 104 52 12 0.115 0.231
Gumbo Stew 112 56 13 0.116 0.232
Sham Chowder 53 80 7 0.132 0.088
Pumpkin Pie 50 25 8 0.160 0.320
Tuna Fish Gravy Toast 90 45 15 0.167 0.333
Pumpkin Cheesecake 42 21 8 0.191 0.381
Vegetable Stew 31 15 7 0.226 0.467
Blueberry Pie 45 22 11 0.244 0.500
Pumpkin Bread 12 6 3 0.250 0.500
Baked Potato 4 1 1 0.250 1.000
Chili Dog 53 30 14 0.264 0.467
Boiled Egg 10 5 3 0.300 0.600
Steak and Potatoes 50 25 16 0.320 0.640
Meat Stew 50 25 17 0.340 0.680
Bacon and Eggs 36 18 14 0.389 0.778
Corn-on-the-cob 5 2 2 0.400 1.000
Hobo Stew 64 32 27 0.422 0.844
Corn Meal 2 1 1 0.500 1.000
Corn Bread 4 2 2 0.500 1.000
Can of Sham 15 7 38 0.507 1.086
Grilled Meat 10 5 10 1.000 2.000
Charred Meat 10 5 10 1.000 2.000
Boiled Meat 10 15 11 1.100 0.733
Moldy Bread 4 0 21 5.250 NA

 

Now in handy chart form:

 

image.png.5ff46888c7b1c2244cedaf2b1bba08b0.png

 

 

Edited by Boidster (see edit history)
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Nice calculation, but imho just a theory with a subjective point system. E.g. i wouldn't rate vegetables you can grow on your own easily the same as items you can just loot (and therefore is a luck based factor). Meat and cans is way more "expensive" than a potato. Empty bottle, murky water and boiled water is worth almost nothing, as you can fetch such when ever you need it. Also that only applies if you assume you have all the items available.

 

In practice according to your calculations sham chowder is "better" than a meat stew. But it is worthless if you don't have a sham can, but 5 meat.

The baked potato is very good, because it costs almost nothing, but do you want to eat 20 potatoes to gain 80 food points? What's the stacksize? ;)

 

The real question is:

You have 2 potatoes, 2 corns, 1 fat, 1 sham can, 1 boiled water and 5 meat. What can you cook with them and which of these is better. In this case you should prefer the sham chowder.

Meat stew and steak & potato is almost the same from both "value" and ingredients, but if you have mushrooms but no corn, you can only cook meat stew (or the other way round).

 

And from the food value, as you can't overeat anymore and are lucky and find the receipe and the ingredients for spaghetti early, you can't really use that. Your max food is 100 and spaghetti refill 122. But most people don't just eat on the last point, but want to keep food above 50%. So you basically waste half the value if you eat spaghetti early game.

 

Since there is no wellness system anymore (sadly) and 7d2d doesn't have carbs/protein/fat-sytem like e.g. Green Hell, it doesn't really mater what you eat. Of course the higher tier receipes are better. Would be really bad game design, if they were not. ;)

Edited by Liesel Weppen (see edit history)

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34 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

Nice calculation, but imho just a theory with a subjective point system.

Of course. It's why I specifically suggested people would argue over it!

34 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

E.g. i wouldn't rate vegetables you can grow on your own easily the same as items you can just loot (and therefore is a luck based factor).

Well I didn't really do that - all of the lootable food items are rated as higher "cost" than crops (or Corn Meal, which is easily created from a crop). Maybe I misunderstand your point.

 

34 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

In practice according to your calculations sham chowder is "better" than a meat stew. But it is worthless if you don't have a sham can, but 5 meat.

The baked potato is very good, because it costs almost nothing, but do you want to eat 20 potatoes to gain 80 food points? What's the stacksize? ;)

 

The real question is:

So imma stop you right there. The real question is from OP:

On 9/15/2020 at 9:43 AM, Tehnomaag said:

So - surely someone has done the numbers and already knows what foods will give you the most "food" points per resources spent? Will these be the cooked potatoes? Corn on Cob? Or maybe vegetable or hobo stew?

I provided (a version of) those numbers. If you have different questions you want to ask, I can certainly try to help answer them with the data I have, using whatever assumptions you want to use!

 

Edit to add: if you or anybody wants to suggest a different cost-weighting of the ingredients, I'm happy to re-run the numbers, though I'll just give out the top-5. I don't want to re-do the entire table every time. Maybe somebody thinks rotten flesh is super-easy to get and wants it at cost=1. No problem, can do.

Edited by Boidster (see edit history)
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37 minutes ago, Boidster said:

all of the lootable food items are rated as higher "cost" than crops (or Corn Meal, which is easily created from a crop).

You're right. I somehow missed that.

 

Quote

So imma stop you right there. The real question is from OP:

Right, but i asked what's the point of the question? How much is "one ressource"? And it's still somehow pointless. Even if baked potato turns out best, do you really want to deal with eating tons of cooked potatos?

Also the comparison between foods according to what you have/need is missing. If baked potatos where the best, so you should spend all your potatos into cooked potatos and then not be able to cook sham chowder, because you have no potatos left?

 

Quote

Edit to add: if you or anybody wants to suggest a different cost-weighting of the ingredients, I'm happy to re-run the numbers, though I'll just give out the top-5. I don't want to re-do the entire table every time. Maybe somebody thinks rotten flesh is super-easy to get and wants it at cost=1. No problem, can do.

I'd value glasses, murky and cooked water with (almost) zero. But you don't need to recalculate. I guess it wouldn't change much. Also i'd would value cans higher than meat. And eggs at least twice the value of meat. Once you've cleared out the surrounding bird nests, eggs are really hard to get.

Edited by Liesel Weppen (see edit history)

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14 minutes ago, Liesel Weppen said:

And it's still somehow pointless. Even if baked potato turns out best, do you really want to deal with eating tons of cooked potatos?

Well I guess I'd say this is why I like looking at hard data. Baked Potatoes clearly aren't best - at least not without some crazy assumptions about the "cost" of, say, water jars which would drastically increase the total cost of other items.

 

Baked Potatoes are, however, arguably better than Steak & Potatoes strictly on a cost-per-food basis. I don't know if that's "pointless" information; I'd argue that it can inform players to answer exactly the question you asked: do I want to carry a stack of Baked Potatoes and eat 10 at a time? Well I think that gets into your other questions about what is at hand? If I don't have a ton of meat and I'm not equipped yet to hunt it up efficiently, but I do have a sustainable potato crop going, maybe I would cook up potatoes in large batches. For food only, of course; it's not very good in terms of cost-per-health-point.

 

One thing I took from the data is that Veggie Stew is definitely a sweet spot for people not specializing in cooking. High value food with simple, 100% base-grown ingredients (assuming water is readily available at/near the base).

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2 minutes ago, Boidster said:

Well I guess I'd say this is why I like looking at hard data.

Well and i care more for the practical side.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Boidster said:

Baked Potatoes are, however, arguably better than Steak & Potatoes strictly on a cost-per-food basis. I don't know if that's "pointless" information;

Imho it is pointless information, because in a real game i'd only use this if i have ONLY potatoes, and can't cook anything else. And if i only have potatoes (or at least not enough to cook something else) there is no choice anyway.

 

2 minutes ago, Boidster said:

One thing I took from the data is that Veggie Stew is definitely a sweet spot for people not specializing in cooking. High value food with simple, 100% base-grown ingredients (assuming water is readily available at/near the base).

What is specializing in cooking? You need master chef 2 if you want to cook vegetable stew. If you have that you can also cook meat stew, steak & potatoes, blueberry pie and some pumpkin receips. Unless you didn't spec one point into master chef and are happy to have found the receipe (is there even a single receipe for vegetable stew?)

So yes, if you want to have most independent food supply, veggie is the way to go. But it doesn't save any skillpoints and since it is the only way to achieve this, the question how "valuable" it is, is useless. Could have said that without any "value" calculation, because it's the only thing that only requires player growable ingredients.

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2 hours ago, Boidster said:
Ingredient Cost
All crops, empty cans/jars, river water, boiled water, Corn Meal 1
Meat, bones, fat, flesh, eggs, all canned food, Sham Sandwiches, Corn Bread 2
Bottle of Acid 3

 

I absolutely love this approach.... I dont think I agree with the costs.   Just based on my own game, I end up with 10 times as many crops as I do canned goods, I'd put the cost of meat, bones, fat, flesh, eggs at 3.   Canned foods I'd have at 5.   See how that changes the calculations.    

 

Better yet, could you put in a google sheet so we could all play with the numbers?   That would be incredibly useful!

 

Either way, well done!

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