UPdate 19.1 WHAT DO U DO WITH THE GAME ????? u ruin the GAME !!!!!! STOP IT !!!!!

[Kalen]

Just now, Boidster said:

Seriously. Zombies can't place blocks at all. So every thing we do (presuming we place at least one block in furtherance of our goals) is using blocks differently from zombies. If the survivor notices zombies have trouble climbing a block (or a ladder), or opening a door, or navigating a tunnel which opens 50 blocks away, it is incumbent upon the survivor to take all advantage of that knowledge to survive! Blow your "cheese" out a junk turret, internet!

 

(There is a meta-game here which is us players vs. TFP. I'm glad that they fixed the wedge thing, but not because it prevents "cheese", but because they upped their game a bit. I'm like, "FINE, let's see what you do about THIS NEW THING HA HA!" [Boidster dies almost immediately])

Pretty much how I feel.... the only reason I think of the steep blocks as kind of cheesy is because it most likely was not intended to work the way it did.   However, we as players had no way of actually knowing that until they said something and changed it.

[HungryZombie]

On 9/13/2020 at 8:02 AM, ~Kevin~ said:

How many complaints do the devs have to get before we go back to Alpha 16 and improve the game, rather than changing everything?

 

I like 19 better than 18, but both are trash compared to 16.  Devs, are you listening to your customers?????

 

How many of these rant threads have to appear before devs accept they made a mistake?

They are listening to their customers. Customers like me that enjoy the game now better than A16. Sorry you're on the wrong side of it.

[alanea]

22 minutes ago, Jeraal said:

Be careful. If you dislike alanea insulting people for having different views on the path of the game, he may drop a dislike bomb on you like I just got. I had 9 notifications of dislikes on various posts, all made within minutes of each other. I guess it was a carpet bombing. I'm still reeling from the impact. Honestly, when people start using the crying, whining and other personal attacks, I just stop reading their post and give a thumbs down. Out of curiosity, if people who like the changes are free to insult people who don't, is the term fanboy back on the table?

nope i just disrespect people  who find me out and bomb me with  5-10 dislikes  on various topics  within single minute  clearly showing they even didnt read posts  just wanted attack me .. and gladly return  favor

 

17 minutes ago, Kalen said:

There you go.... good approach.   Just ignore them.... attacking people with different opinions just makes you look bad.  Better to challenge their opinions than to name call.

i challenge them often   you could notice it if you watch me for while ... problem is those people  dont listen to anything they dont even discuss topic  they just yell  same thing  a16 best a16 best a19 sucks a16 best like trained monkey  if someone ignore you  .. its funny pimps  time to move on   a16  is gone and  wont return .. you can play old version  if you want ... but adding some insult to new version or glorifiing old alpha into most posts ... is just whining not discussion

i should ignore you  not because i disagree  but because all you want  is  some kind of reaction  .. so you can say again same thing ignoring all effort someone put into post  and nothing in world  will change that  .... its kinda  like trolling ... arguing with trolls just make them more visible ... instead solving issue

 

12 minutes ago, Boidster said:

Seriously. Zombies can't place blocks at all. So every thing we do (presuming we place at least one block in furtherance of our goals) is using blocks differently from zombies. If the survivor notices zombies have trouble climbing a block (or a ladder), or opening a door, or navigating a tunnel which opens 50 blocks away, it is incumbent upon the survivor to take all advantage of that knowledge to survive! Blow your "cheese" out a junk turret, internet!

 

(There is a meta-game here which is us players vs. TFP. I'm glad that they fixed the wedge thing, but not because it prevents "cheese", but because they upped their game a bit. I'm like, "FINE, let's see what you do about THIS NEW THING HA HA!" [Boidster dies almost immediately])

well ... no block  should stuck zombies forever ... or break ai so hard they spend whole horde night running on ramp  falling down  and repeat .. or just standing doing nothing those things are more ai  bugs than anything else

 

1 minute ago, HungryZombie said:

They are listening to their customers. Customers like me that enjoy the game now better than A16. Sorry you're on the wrong side of it.

 

yeah  most people enjoy game and sales  go well ..  sure some people dislike loot progression now .. but thats new  thing in game thats worked on a16  guys are just very small and very loud group .. thats slowly in decline     they listen to majority ....to limited degree as they have fixed vision of basics

[Kalen]

5 minutes ago, alanea said:

i challenge them often   you could notice it if you watch me for while ... problem is those people  dont listen to anything they dont even discuss topic  they just yell  same thing  a16 best a16 best a19 sucks a16 best like trained monkey

Except you don't just attack opinions you attack people.... you just did it there!   If someone likes LBD better than what we have now, thats a personal preference... you can't argue someone out of the way they feel.   Sure, you can point out why the current system seems better to you, but doing so while calling them "whiners" makes you look bad.  As far as I'm concerned, when you resort to name calling you've already lost no matter how compelling the rest of your argument may be.

[alanea]

4 minutes ago, Kalen said:

Except you don't just attack opinions you attack people.... you just did it there!   If someone likes LBD better than what we have now, thats a personal preference... you can't argue someone out of the way they feel.   Sure, you can point out why the current system seems better to you, but doing so while calling them "whiners" makes you look bad.  As far as I'm concerned, when you resort to name calling you've already lost no matter how compelling the rest of your argument may be.

nope i attack people for throwing that human turd on us over and over i respect if they like it  ....   but no one likes to read how they trashtalk everything just because its not a16 ... and atacking everyone that tells  them a16 or lbd is offtopic as soon as they stop bothering people with spaming that " preference"   regardless of topic theme  or complaining any new content  with  0 context or arguments i will have no reason tor eact at them at all

 

you cant really discuss something with person if all they want is to whine about loved a16  they dont want to talk they want just scream same opinion 1000th time  and attack anyone who disagree or feel bothered with that spam

 

[Jeraal]

23 minutes ago, alanea said:

nope i just disrespect people  who find me out and bomb me with  5-10 dislikes  on various topics  within single minute  clearly showing they even didnt read posts  just wanted attack me .. and gladly return  favor

...

I usually don't even pay attention to who is saying what. But, if you made repeated insults, I likely gave repeated dislikes. And if you have to insult people to try and make your point, your point isn't worth reading. Don't remember ever going to the trouble of looking for someone's posts just to drop dislikes either{my memory could be faulty however}. But, if it made you feel better...

[Kalen]

1 minute ago, alanea said:

nope i attack people for throwing that human turd on us over and over i respect if they like it  ....   but no one likes to read how they trashtalk everything just because its not a16 ... and atacking everyone that tells  them a16 or lbd is offtopic as soon as they stop bothering people with spaming that " preference"   regardless of topic theme  or complaining any new content  with  0 context or arguments i will have no reason tor eact at them at all

 

you cant really discuss something with person if all they want is to whine about loved a16  they dont want to talk they want just scream same opinion 1000th time  and attack anyone who disagree or feel bothered with that spam

 

Ok, whatever.... I tired.

 

You be you.

[Roland]

Simply, we all exploit situations to our benefit.  We exploit the fact that we can move faster than the zombies. Scout exploited the fact that they mostly don’t come out except at night...mostly. Shane exploited Otis. 
 

There’s nothing wrong with taking advantage of behavior we notice. I tend to clear POIs during the day rather than night as it gives me a clear advantage. 
 

Whats wrong is when behavior is malfunctioning and needs to be fixed and people build strategies based on the incorrect behavior. In my mind, it’s okay to do as long as everyone agrees it’s temporary until things get fixed and not get upset about “mah play style!!!”

 

So I say have fun doing whatever but just be prepared to have to switch things up as the devs polish things. Personally, I had some fun with the steep slope meta while it was here but moved on from it without any salt. 
 

Just don’t ruin my fun with hatches devs! 
 

 

[Kalen]

4 hours ago, Roland said:

Shane exploited Otis

Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life son.

[th3s0n1c]

The only thing that got patched that still upsets me to this day is  the hatch elevator. (I liked the mechanics, not the exploit per se)

[RipClaw]

9 hours ago, alanea said:

whining  is complaining about   game change  several alphas later when its  101%  sure  its not gonna be changed and its long  forgotten past its like people in real world who still refuse to accept results  of world  war or independence of usa on england  or even slavery abolition... and loudly scream around and demand change   some people are just triggered  by certain things and freeze stuck on some topics while majority move forward

What is the difference between someone discussing a topic over and over again about something that has been changed and that he don't like or someone wanting something changed but the developers don't want to change it?

 

For me both is whining. Only that whining in terms of "making the game harder for the player" is seen as positive here in the forum, while "making it easier for the player" is often seen as negative.
 

A few weeks ago in the Alpha 19 Dev Diary there was a lot of talk about disabling nerdpoling or creating an option to disable it. This went so far that Madmole put the topic on the "This topic is not discussed in the Dev Diary" list because it was brought up by the same person over and over again.
 

[mr.devolver]

11 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Screw that! I shouldn't have to mod a game in order to enjoy it!!!

Well, in that case, if you don't like the new version, you can always go back to the old Alpha, it's still there!

[Roland]

5 hours ago, RipClaw said:

What is the difference between someone discussing a topic over and over again about something that has been changed and that he don't like or someone wanting something changed but the developers don't want to change it?

 

For me both is whining. Only that whining in terms of "making the game harder for the player" is seen as positive here in the forum, while "making it easier for the player" is often seen as negative.
 

A few weeks ago in the Alpha 19 Dev Diary there was a lot of talk about disabling nerdpoling or creating an option to disable it. This went so far that Madmole put the topic on the "This topic is not discussed in the Dev Diary" list because it was brought up by the same person over and over again.
 

Beyond whether something will make the game easier or harder there is the simple social aptitude of gracefully accepting a final decision by an authority within a certain sphere. Madmole has the right to make final decisions in this sphere. Campaigning and pushing for a feature or change while the possibility is still open is fine and something I wouldn’t call whining. I’ve pushed for food spoilage, stiffer death penalty (keeping debuffs), no nerdpoling, less onscreen indicators, one block egress, and item degradation with great vigor in the past in multiple posts. However, final design decisions went against my own wishes in all those cases. Once the final decision was made I stopped because that really is the dividing line between debating and just plain whining. 
 

What it all comes down to was whether a person’s Mom held firm or not when they were in the checkout line as a little kid pestering her for a treat. If her “no” was final and they got in trouble for whining and making a scene then they learned the lesson.

 

Child Development 101 

[Boidster]

5 minutes ago, Roland said:

no nerdpoling

 

Let's compromise - no nerdpoling when an enemy is targeting you. Because seriously, in peacetime nerdpoling is just shorthand for place block/place ladder/repeat. Saves a couple of wood and a little time, but either way you can't prevent a player in a voxel game from creating a one-block-wide tower. Unless they want to introduce maximum vertical (compression) weight into the SI.

 

7 minutes ago, Roland said:

What it all comes down to was whether a person’s Mom held firm or not when they were in the checkout line as a little kid pestering her for a treat. If her “no” was final and they got in trouble for whining and making a scene then they learned the lesson.

I modded the shopping cart when Mom wasn't watching.

[Roland]

53 minutes ago, Boidster said:

you can't prevent a player in a voxel game from creating a one-block-wide tower. Unless they want to introduce maximum vertical (compression) weight into the SI.

There actually is a mod that does it successfully by preventing you from placing a block if your feet aren’t planted. Sphereii did it. 
 

Of course, that mod also stops you from saving yourself from a long fall with a well-timed hay block placement....

[Boidster]

34 minutes ago, Roland said:

There actually is a mod that does it successfully by preventing you from placing a block if your feet aren’t planted. Sphereii did it.

Interesting! So if you are climbing a ladder, you can't place a block? That seems like it would impact a few different types of build techniques, not just nerdpoling. Hmm...what about ladders? Can you place ladders while on a ladder? Because if not then it really gets silly just trying to add a ladder to the side of your base. Nerdpole for lyfe, yo.

[alanea]

57 minutes ago, Roland said:

There actually is a mod that does it successfully by preventing you from placing a block if your feet aren’t planted. Sphereii did it. 
 

Of course, that mod also stops you from saving yourself from a long fall with a well-timed hay block placement....

that wont stop you frommaking "stairs"  from frames ... if they really wanted kill nerdpolers  climbing  directly on roof  for easy loot  they could  disable  placing blocks inside poi area .. unless its landclaimed( so you could still  rebuild  it in own house)

 

 honestly i wouldnt be surprised if they meant this ...  as devs make sure there is valid way through every poi withou single placed block

[RipClaw]

8 minutes ago, alanea said:

that wont stop you frommaking "stairs"  from frames ... if they really wanted kill nerdpolers  climbing  directly on roof  for easy loot  they could  disable  placing blocks inside poi area .. unless its landclaimed( so you could still  rebuild  it in own house)

You have an error in logic here. In order to place an LCB, there must already be an LCB in place that allows this to happen.

9 minutes ago, alanea said:

honestly i wouldnt be surprised if they meant this ...  as devs make sure there is valid way through every poi withou single placed block

From what I've heard so far, the most popular idea is that you need a key to open the reinforced chest at the end of the dungeon. The key can only be found inside the dungeon.

 

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Boidster said:

Interesting! So if you are climbing a ladder, you can't place a block? That seems like it would impact a few different types of build techniques, not just nerdpoling. Hmm...what about ladders? Can you place ladders while on a ladder? Because if not then it really gets silly just trying to add a ladder to the side of your base. Nerdpole for lyfe, yo.

No you could from a ladder if I remember correctly (this was A17). Just if you were airborne you could not. So no placing while in the middle of a jump. 

45 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

From what I've heard so far, the most popular idea is that you need a key to open the reinforced chest at the end of the dungeon. The key can only be found inside the dungeon.

Personally I think I prefer just spreading it around more. The key idea is going to just introduce more indestructible elements which I am very much against and/or invalidate lockpicking tools which would be dumb. 

[Kalen]

48 minutes ago, Roland said:

Personally I think I prefer just spreading it around more. The key idea is going to just introduce more indestructible elements which I am very much against and/or invalidate lockpicking tools which would be dumb. 

I kind of like the key idea... but only in limited quantities (say 10-20% of POIs).   Spreading out the loot I would use in the rest.   As much as I like the dungeon style POIs, I'm not really a fan of the loot room.   It, dare I say, breaks immersion 

 

[RipClaw]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

Personally I think I prefer just spreading it around more. The key idea is going to just introduce more indestructible elements which I am very much against and/or invalidate lockpicking tools which would be dumb. 

Spreading it out more evenly would be one option but I think it would lead to other problems like some players not being interested in completing a dungeon if they have already collected most of the good loot. The last part usually is the part with the toughest zombies. These are the end bosses that are supposed to protect the treasure.

 

[Jeraal]

1 hour ago, Kalen said:

I kind of like the key idea... but only in limited quantities (say 10-20% of POIs).   Spreading out the loot I would use in the rest.   As much as I like the dungeon style POIs, I'm not really a fan of the loot room.   It, dare I say, breaks immersion 

 

Not the "I" word! You'll invalidate your entire post!

[th3s0n1c]

6 hours ago, alanea said:

that wont stop you frommaking "stairs"  from frames ... if they really wanted kill nerdpolers  climbing  directly on roof  for easy loot  they could  disable  placing blocks inside poi area .. unless its landclaimed( so you could still  rebuild  it in own house)

 

 honestly i wouldnt be surprised if they meant this ...  as devs make sure there is valid way through every poi withou single placed block

I believe the biggest problem with nerdpoling is that you can pick up the blocks after.. it works both going up and going down. If you were to do that with other blocks, at least you would be accepting that you're losing the materials you spent to craft it. And would have to find another way to get down.

I believe they should remove placeable/removeable frames altogether (wooden, iron and rebar). And if the problem is regards mapping out buildings.. introduce a visual footprint system like many games do.

Or have all POI's act like a LCB'ed building (but still breakable). And for you to be able to build in there, you'd have to find the lcb and break it/turn it off (possibly on the final loot room).

[Boidster]

If the devs' idea is to fashion a thrilling ride through the POI with a big payoff at the end - which it seems they definitely want to continue to do - then I dunno if we'll ever be rid of "loot rooms". Or, at best, there might be a couple/few loot rooms all at the top level of the POI to ensure you enjoy the ride first. Doesn't work so well in T1/T2 POIs.

 

Also I expect that whatever change is made will depend on the resources required to implement it. I think that redoing most of the POIs to add appropriate loot rooms with appropriate One True Paths to them could be a lot more work than (programatically) replacing metal_loot_box_01 (or whatever it is) with keyed_metal_loot_box_01 and likewise for other Big Loot Containers.

 

Placing the key within the POI will require some changes to the code which generates (or resets for a quest) the POI, but I think they might be able to (also programmatically, not by hand) adjust loot tables so that the key can appear in the existing lootables. That is, the wouldn't have to go touch every POI by hand and place several "key container" objects around. They might just be able to adjust the loot for dressers, desks, kitchen cabinets, and whatnot to have a possibility of producing that POI's key.

 

Anywho, avoiding having to touch all the POIs by hand is probably a factor.

 

5 hours ago, Roland said:

Personally I think I prefer just spreading it around more. The key idea is going to just introduce more indestructible elements which I am very much against and/or invalidate lockpicking tools which would be dumb. 

That would be dumb. But how about this:

 

1) One Big Loot Container in the loot room is almost indestructible (say, 50,000 HP)

2) If the BLC is destroyed, either by smashing or by falling, its contents are lost - so you can remodel the loot room if you're making a base, but ixnay on breaking it for loot

3) Lockpicking still applies to BLC, but perhaps it requires perk level 2 or 3 to use it on them.

 

I think all of those rules would be easier to implement than a redesign of most POIs to incorporate multiple loot rooms. There's too much One True Path going on in them and it'd have to be reworked so the loot rooms were at least something of a challenge to get to.

[Kalen]

1 hour ago, th3s0n1c said:

I believe the biggest problem with nerdpoling is that you can pick up the blocks after.. it works both going up and going down. If you were to do that with other blocks, at least you would be accepting that you're losing the materials you spent to craft it. And would have to find another way to get down.

I dont think that would change a thing.   The loss in resources would be negligible (2 wood for a wood frame).   And no need to find another way down, after using the blocks to get up, you could just break them to get down and you'll even recoup some of the resources.

 

There are many ways to accomplish getting to various places in the game.  Nerdpoling is just the easiest.  Removing it will not change the behavior you're trying to remove at all.