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Structural integrity....

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4 minutes ago, Pichii said:

However, id still like to point out, it doesnt explain the collapse of the entire wood frame structure.
Like, i was framing a base and it collapsed with more than enough 'legs' to hold it up.

I'm not sure.... I apologize, but I'm still a little fuzzy on what the details of the situation was.

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7 hours ago, Pichii said:

"each of the 4 sides can hold 40, so 160 total" This explains the steel for sure. Didnt know it was per side.

However, id still like to point out, it doesnt explain the collapse of the entire wood frame structure.
Like, i was framing a base and it collapsed with more than enough 'legs' to hold it up.

*Note the wood frame structure is unrelated to the above ASCI art graphic. :x

I've read your posts in this thread and your bug report and it's really not clear to me what you are trying to build and where the failure point is. A little more detail on what you are doing and the failure point would be helpful to everyone involved here. Specifically, what were the dimensions of the wood frame structure that failed?

 

Regardless, you can calculate SI by counting the number of block faces providing support and multiplying that by the max horizontal support. To determine how many blocks that will hold divide that number by the block weight. For example, one wood block face can support 8 wood blocks (40/5 = 8). If you try to add more, the entire horizontal row of wood blocks will sheer at the vertical column. If you were trying to build an elevated rectangular wood platform , 4 vertical columns can support a platform with a maximum size of 68 wood blocks [ ((4x2)x40)/5) + 4 ].  Each vertical column will have 2 faces providing support so there is a total of 8 faces providing support [4 x 2]. Eight faces can support 64 blocks [ (8 x 40)/5) ]. Including the 4 blocks from the vertical columns that leaves us with a maximum platform of 68 blocks. The max dimensions of this platform would be 8 x 8 or 6 x 11 and you would be pretty much unable to place anything on the blocks in the center of the platform. 

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Im just going to chalk this up as a failure of my understanding of SI.
Ill keep an eye on things now that I have a much more clear understanding of its mechanics and if I run into the issue again, ill get accurate dimensions for the build for reproduction.
My apologies- I wasnt sure exactly how to explain and it shows.

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2 hours ago, Pichii said:

Im just going to chalk this up as a failure of my understanding of SI.
Ill keep an eye on things now that I have a much more clear understanding of its mechanics and if I run into the issue again, ill get accurate dimensions for the build for reproduction.
My apologies- I wasnt sure exactly how to explain and it shows.

Just an idea but if you have a spare map, you could just pop into creative mode and replicate the structure. I myself have lost the top of the decorative radio tower at the red mesa poi when i painted the lowest part purple. It doesnt make sense but im gonna try to experiment with it.

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A house I took over for a base two days ago, the south side of it completely collapsed. The only changes I had made were removing free-standing bookshelves and adding a few farm blocks on the flat roof. The basement walls were solid concrete and nothing happened to them, but the entire structure of the first and second floors, as well as the roof, completely collapsed. Fortunately I had a backup but I still lost several hours.

Upgrading a few strategic columns of blocks after restoring the backup worked, but I found it disturbing that a house with so few changes would collapse so easily. It's not as if I loaded the structure down with a huge concrete bunker or something.

 

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Farm plots on the roof would be the reason. As the crops grow, they have more weight. Once they reach full growth, they are often collapse part or all of the structure they are on. 

 

If you want a farm on your roof, you should add extra supports.

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39 minutes ago, GlassDeviant said:

A house I took over for a base two days ago, the south side of it completely collapsed. The only changes I had made were removing free-standing bookshelves and adding a few farm blocks on the flat roof. The basement walls were solid concrete and nothing happened to them, but the entire structure of the first and second floors, as well as the roof, completely collapsed. Fortunately I had a backup but I still lost several hours.

Upgrading a few strategic columns of blocks after restoring the backup worked, but I found it disturbing that a house with so few changes would collapse so easily. It's not as if I loaded the structure down with a huge concrete bunker or something.

 

Gameplay wise I find that ok, because taking over a poi saves you so much time and material, there should be serious downsides as well. It is seldom enough, I never though of checking for SI and the only collapses I had were from someone digging underneath the POI.

 

If you need a realistic justification for it, bombs were falling and tremors have damaged all buildings.

 

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I've had a confusing SI issue yesterday. In one of the garages, the blue one with the interactable rolling door. I destroyed all supporting wood blocks for the steel poles and they remained floating. And yes there was nothing supporting them at all as I placed frames on all sides where they could get support from, removed them and they stayed floating 😕

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1 hour ago, GlassDeviant said:

A house I took over for a base two days ago, the south side of it completely collapsed. The only changes I had made were removing free-standing bookshelves and adding a few farm blocks on the flat roof. The basement walls were solid concrete and nothing happened to them, but the entire structure of the first and second floors, as well as the roof, completely collapsed. Fortunately I had a backup but I still lost several hours.

Upgrading a few strategic columns of blocks after restoring the backup worked, but I found it disturbing that a house with so few changes would collapse so easily. It's not as if I loaded the structure down with a huge concrete bunker or something.

 

The game doesn't care what blocks are below beyond if blocks exist or not all the way to bedrock or not as those blocks have infinite structural Integrity regardless of what they are made of. Instead all that really matters is how many blocks are attached with out said infinite structural Integrity and what is the limit for the nearest most directly attached block with it. In other words the only blocks in a base that really matter are the ones the floor/roof connect to on the walls and that the walls continue all the way to bedrock.

 

1] Do I have blocks all the way to bedrock (yes or no): (if yes stop but if no go to question 2)

2] Did any block next to me but not above or below answer yes to first question: (if Yes go to question 3 if no go to 4)

3] What is the max support value of the block from question 2: (set value to my own minus 1 and go to question 5)

4] What is the highest value that is not above or below me: (set value to my own minus 1 and go to question 5)

5] How many blocks are there above or below me: (minus number from my value and go to question 6)

6] Is my value at 0: (Trigger fall and minus 1 from all connected blocks)

 

That is the basic logic of it.

 

Edited by Danidas (see edit history)

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I all these stability issues should be left alone ... and they add a new perk called "structural engineer" which checks your level before the patch to this applies.  If you need to read a book to make eggs and bacon, you need to read a book to build a house ;).  Then you can say, early game you *thought* a wood/stone/etc block could hold x other blocks, but you obviously were wrong about that because you didn't read the books.  The more you invest in the perk, the more the game engine actually uses the "real" values you see for the blocks....no?

 

Anyway: Yeah, I occasionally have stability issues as well, but I've gotten to where I build "way too dense/close/safe" vs "maxing out what the values say" and generally don't have issues anymore until I try to get creative and build some new structure out of frames to flesh something out.

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6 hours ago, doughphunghus said:

 

Anyway: Yeah, I occasionally have stability issues as well, but I've gotten to where I build "way too dense/close/safe" vs "maxing out what the values say" and generally don't have issues anymore until I try to get creative and build some new structure out of frames to flesh something out.

That was the issue that started this thread.
I built a base out of frames the way ive done since A16.
The frames got to about 10 high and then randomly collapsed as I was filling in frames for walls and upgrading them.
Adding supports at 1/2 the max (8 blocks is my max so I just put in supports every 4th block to workaround) 'fixes' the problem but I cannot accurately figure out what/where is going on to cause the collapse in the first place.

Also, if you had this issue, can you say whether or not you used the Nitrogen map maker mod or if you were vanilla?

Edited by Pichii (see edit history)

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3 hours ago, Pichii said:.

Also, if you had this issue, can you say whether or not you used the Nitrogen map maker mod or if you were vanilla?

I can’t say :(.  I’m normally using vanilla map generation, but I have played a bit of maps pulled from other things (like Darkness Falls, etc) so I don’t know what they used.  I don’t personally use Nitrogen when I autogen my own maps, and it’s not something that happens enough I’d be able to recall what game version I was using or anything (and I always play with a lot of mods). 

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Most failed structural Integrity fails are due to the game having limits on block fall checks to avoid overwhelming your processor. As it prefers to do big falls when your not around or far enough away that it can use lower levels of details and generally be less taxing. Also the game has a few fun exploitable bugs with structural Integrity such as the well known phantom door bug. Where a ghost of destroyed doors can remain and provide structural Integrity to blocks above where it was until the block under the now gone door is removed. Which naturally can be abused for magic floating bases the defile logic.

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Just a basic question but wouldnt it be easier at this point to present a patch what practically shows you how much weight a certain item holds?

 

Like a color coding going from green, yellow, red and black to show if something is on the verge of collapse. This way players could actually test out which parts of the SI system are now faulty instead of randomly guessing why removing dirt from under a wall collapses the very top and only the top 1 line of roof of a building.

 

 

Even removing the weight system could significantly improve the entire SI system because then you could program something like "A pillar of concrete can hold 4 blocks of any material horizontally without falling over".

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37 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Just a basic question but wouldnt it be easier at this point to present a patch what practically shows you how much weight a certain item holds?

 

Like a color coding going from green, yellow, red and black to show if something is on the verge of collapse. This way players could actually test out which parts of the SI system are now faulty instead of randomly guessing why removing dirt from under a wall collapses the very top and only the top 1 line of roof of a building.

 

 

Even removing the weight system could significantly improve the entire SI system because then you could program something like "A pillar of concrete can hold 4 blocks of any material horizontally without falling over".

Weight already doesn't matter and in fact never mattered at all as all it cares about is the total number of blocks being supported. Which each block material type has different limits on how many it can support. However said material support limits are meaningless if the block doesn't have a unbroken stack of blocks below it all the way to bedrock and also note that the materials used in said stack are meaningless. In other words when making a upside down L only the top vertical block matters for determining how long the horizontal line of blocks can be.

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48 minutes ago, Danidas said:

Weight already doesn't matter and in fact never mattered at all as all it cares about is the total number of blocks being supported. Which each block material type has different limits on how many it can support. However said material support limits are meaningless if the block doesn't have a unbroken stack of blocks below it all the way to bedrock and also note that the materials used in said stack are meaningless. In other words when making a upside down L only the top vertical block matters for determining how long the horizontal line of blocks can be.

Wait. Are you saying you can put the same amount of steel blocks or wood blocks on a supporting wood block ?

 

If yes, I'll test that and if I find out it isn't true I'll send you a bill for my wasted time. 😉

 

If no, how is that not the result of weight ?

 

 

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23 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Wait. Are you saying you can put the same amount of steel blocks or wood blocks on a supporting wood block ?

 

If yes, I'll test that and if I find out it isn't true I'll send you a bill for my wasted time. 😉

 

If no, how is that not the result of weight ?

 

 

Yep that is exactly what I'm saying.

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2 hours ago, Danidas said:

Yep that is exactly what I'm saying.

That is incorrect... mass of the block absolutely matters.   For example, a wood frame holds 40.  So you can attach 2 steel blocks.  Try to add a 3rd and it collapses.   However, you can add a bunch of wooden frames without a problem.

 

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I read all that, in a summary for the experience; it seems there's at least three different versions of SI going on.. or people just experience that same game wildly different. My money's on the latter.

 

@Pichii, regarding your old faithful base; I'm pretty sure some of the numbers for weight and 'glue' have been changing lately (in A19 patches if I'm not mistaken, but could've been A18 already), although I think most of them went towards "more sturdy", but it might be that I missed some change. The only downgrade I've noticed was that Rebar was given "stone" values, which makes sense since it'll be stone soon after. But check them out, might explain something.

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@Danidas: You should find my bill in your email 😉:

 

A19.2_2020-10-29_02-09-37.thumb.jpg.bf2b422c7292e121b1667f4398dfa2db.jpg

 

Both sides extend to maximum length before collapse: 2 steel or 8 wood blocks

 

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8 hours ago, meganoth said:

@Danidas: You should find my bill in your email 😉:

 

A19.2_2020-10-29_02-09-37.thumb.jpg.bf2b422c7292e121b1667f4398dfa2db.jpg

 

Both sides extend to maximum length before collapse: 2 steel or 8 wood blocks

 

Okay back again to my suggestion wouldnt it be better if the system would ditch the weight system and instead go for a maximum amount of blocks per support?

 

That would make sure you dont have to worry about unknown variables and such.

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1 hour ago, Solomon said:

Okay back again to my suggestion wouldnt it be better if the system would ditch the weight system and instead go for a maximum amount of blocks per support?

 

That would make sure you dont have to worry about unknown variables and such.

Disagree.... using a system of maximum blocks would make a steel block no different than a wood frame for the purposes of SI and that doesn't make any sense.

 

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1 minute ago, Kalen said:

Disagree.... using a system of maximum blocks would make a steel block no different than a wood frame for the purposes of SI and that doesn't make any sense.

 

Nonono, you misunderstood me.

 

I only critize the weight system because it can be chaothic from time to time.

 

What i meant is a maximum block support system where each of your base support blocks could only handle a select amount of blocks going horizontally.

 

  1. Wood can hold 4
  2. Stone can hold 5
  3. Concrete can hold 6
  4. Steel can hold 7

Everything over the limit causes a collapse, but not because weights but because on number of blocks. It makes SI calculation much easier althought it practically makes the mechanics "dumber".

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5 minutes ago, Solomon said:

Nonono, you misunderstood me.

 

I only critize the weight system because it can be chaothic from time to time.

 

What i meant is a maximum block support system where each of your base support blocks could only handle a select amount of blocks going horizontally.

 

  1. Wood can hold 4
  2. Stone can hold 5
  3. Concrete can hold 6
  4. Steel can hold 7

Everything over the limit causes a collapse, but not because weights but because on number of blocks. It makes SI calculation much easier althought it practically makes the mechanics "dumber".

I understood you.... but what youre saying is that wood, for example, could hold only 4 blocks, whether those blocks are steel blocks or wood frames.   I find that too simple a system.   Building should be more complicated than just counting blocks, IMO.

 

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4 hours ago, Solomon said:

Okay back again to my suggestion wouldnt it be better if the system would ditch the weight system and instead go for a maximum amount of blocks per support?

 

That would make sure you dont have to worry about unknown variables and such.

I agree that the information how much something can hold is slightly hidden. A block in my inventory tells me immediately what it can hold and its weight, but a block in the world does not.

 

Such an information deficit happens when you want to attach blocks to an existing poi and it happens when you upgrade. On the other hand the game gives you the means to find out. For example: If you want to find out how much weight some block can hold, just add wood frames until they collapse. Multiply the max number of wood frames it held by 5 (the weight of a wood frame) and you have the weight it can hold.

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)

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