Structural integrity....

[Morloc]

 

Has anyone been having SI issues lately? I know this crops up from time to time, but I was just curious if it was just me.

 

I rode back to my workshop yesterday and heard that sound of stone breaking. The upper levels of my workshop tower were all crumbling. I hadn't added anything in game weeks, and there was no zombie damage to the still-standing lower half. While I understand why it was catastrophic based on my architecture, I just don't know what kicked it off. Many of the POIs I've been visiting (including vanilla) have been experiencing small collapses when I take out beds, curtains or sometimes just walking though.

 

Thanks,

 

-Morloc

[AtomicUs5000]

Someone posted about something falling apart at their base in the dev diary... perhaps yesterday or the day before.
Whether or not a bug report has been made, I have no idea.
When someone randomly posts in the dev diary about it instead of making a report leaves me thinking the player probably did something wrong, but for as long as you have played and know how things are supposed to work, I would now say that there must be some sort of bug going on.
I would report it.

[Boidster]

[bobrpggamer]

This happens from time to and it makes no sense when it does happen. I had a pair of lights drop attached on the very top of concrete block, so I suppose the weight of 2 industrial lights was too much stress for a reinforced concrete block.

[Axonius]

I've noticed a few zombies randomly chain-smacking buildings.  No aggro on me. Just hitting a building. 

[Pichii]

On 9/4/2020 at 9:18 AM, Morloc said:

 

Has anyone been having SI issues lately? I know this crops up from time to time, but I was just curious if it was just me.

 

I rode back to my workshop yesterday and heard that sound of stone breaking. The upper levels of my workshop tower were all crumbling. I hadn't added anything in game weeks, and there was no zombie damage to the still-standing lower half. While I understand why it was catastrophic based on my architecture, I just don't know what kicked it off. Many of the POIs I've been visiting (including vanilla) have been experiencing small collapses when I take out beds, curtains or sometimes just walking though.

 

Thanks,

 

-Morloc

Yes.
Me and my friend are currently diagnosing this issue and it appears that the SI physics are breaking when you switch from 1 material to another in the same area.
Example: You build a tower of wood and add a floor of steel to the wood tower.
The tower crumbles because the weight of the steel is 20ea but wood can only support a max of 60. 4 blocks causes a SI break, when it should not.
The games SI check seems to be breaking when calculating two differnt material supports on the same area.
Also, it breaks when connecting things from the center too.

Example: a + shaped setup 2 blocks for each appendage and no center- supported by a wood frame all the way around in a square with 4corner supports.
2 steel blocks in middle with no center for the +.
THe structure still stands when each support is holding 40. You place another steel block in the center to fill the + in; the entire + collapses.
Add a frame to a side without the center for + and that side collapses with the steel. Wood foundation still stands.

However, you can still build a tower as far up as you want with just wood frame, rebar frame, ect.
You build a wood tower and add 6 steel blocks and the steel blocks collapse.
Im going to file a bug report for this issue if I cannot find one already existing.

[ElCabong]

On 9/4/2020 at 12:33 PM, Axonius said:

I've noticed a few zombies randomly chain-smacking buildings.  No aggro on me. Just hitting a building. 

I've noticed that too.

[Morloc]

2 hours ago, Pichii said:

Im going to file a bug report for this issue if I cannot find one already existing.

 

Thank you. I could not really submit one because I was playing off of a save created one version earlier, and was also using Nitrogen/Compo.

 

 

-Morloc

[Kalen]

6 hours ago, Pichii said:

You build a wood tower and add 6 steel blocks and the steel blocks collapse.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but how is this a bug?   Wood blocks shouldn't support 6 steel blocks, right?

[Pichii]

7 hours ago, Kalen said:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but how is this a bug?   Wood blocks shouldn't support 6 steel blocks, right?

A wood tower can stack up till height map ends. (As tall as the game will let you) and it wont bust.
Add 6 steel blocks and only the steel collapses.

11 hours ago, Morloc said:

 

Thank you. I could not really submit one because I was playing off of a save created one version earlier, and was also using Nitrogen/Compo.

 

 

-Morloc

The Map generation mod shouldnt affect SI at all as far as the game is concerned its just a mapsave.
At most that mod could potentially affect zed spawning in biomes but thats pmuch it. Perhaps some loot table issues as they are linked to biomes now.
Theres nothing that nitrogen does that should interfere with SI checks as SI is calculated from bedrock up and the mod doesnt change how SI works or any of that, just how the map is RNGd'.
I was using nitrogen as well and 'all parts craftable' mods. I still dont think either of those two mods can cause a SI break tho. Neither of them mess with game physics.

[Kalen]

Well, yeah the game only checks the sides of blocks for SI.   Each time you place a block it has to recalculate all the impacted blocks.   If the game checked blocks vertically as well, your computer would burst into flames.... because every block placed (or broken) would have to check all the blocks below it, above it and to the sides (and then each of the blocks checked would have to have its surrounding blocks checked.... and so on).   In a voxel world you just can't do that.   

 

[Pichii]

2 minutes ago, Kalen said:

Well, yeah the game only checks the sides of blocks for SI.   Each time you place a block it has to recalculate all the impacted blocks.   If the game checked blocks vertically as well, your computer would burst into flames.... because every block placed (or broken) would have to check all the blocks below it, above it and to the sides (and then each of the blocks checked would have to have its surrounding blocks checked.... and so on).   In a voxel world you just can't do that.   

 

?
Have the check stop after a few blocks. Im quite sure it already has similar functionality or else it would continue to check the entire world on the Y axis no?

[Kalen]

Just now, Pichii said:

?
Have the check stop after a few blocks. Im quite sure it already has similar functionality or else it would continue to check the entire world on the X axis no?

No, it checks horizontally until SI fails, so there is a limit.   Which is why sometimes when a mine collapses it doesn't completely collapse they way you might expect it to.   Any kind of a limit would have to be tracked adding to the cost to check.   SI has been with us for a very long time, I'd be surprised if TFP hadn't explored vertical limits at some point.

 

The solution to your particular problem is instead of, say, stacking 6 wood blocks then attaching steel to wood.... stack 5 wood blocks and 1 steel block then attack the steel to steel.

 

[Pichii]

4 minutes ago, Kalen said:

No, it checks horizontally until SI fails, so there is a limit.   Which is why sometimes when a mine collapses it doesn't completely collapse they way you might expect it to.   Any kind of a limit would have to be tracked adding to the cost to check.   SI has been with us for a very long time, I'd be surprised if TFP hadn't explored vertical limits at some point.

 

The solution to your particular problem is instead of, say, stacking 6 wood blocks then attaching steel to wood.... stack 5 wood blocks and 1 steel block then attack the steel to steel.

 

You seem to be operating under old info.
The devs are certainly messing with the SI atm, intentionally or not and thats because they are modifying and fixing blocks.
Hence why we now have our 1/8ths back when we didnt during the A19 EXP.
Also to note; the bugs with concrete blocks allowing demolisher explosions to bleed thru the walls.

It could be a bug with SI, It could simply be a bug with blocks. idk. Thats for the devs to decide. Not I. Its above my pay grade.

[Kalen]

Just now, Pichii said:

You seem to be operating under old info.
The devs are certainly messing with the SI atm, intentionally or not and thats because they are modifying and fixing blocks.
Hence why we now have our 1/8ths back when we didnt during the A19 EXP.
Also to note; the bugs with concrete blocks allowing demolisher explosions to bleed thru the walls.

Old info?  Everything I said is still true.... SI only checks horizontally (except to make sure there is something beneath it all the way to bedrock... and to check total weight attached to a side of a block)

 

I never implied that they don't still work on SI.  

[Pichii]

1 minute ago, Kalen said:

Old info?  Everything I said is still true.... SI only checks horizontally (except to make sure there is something beneath it all the way to bedrock... and to check total weight attached to a side of a block)

 

I never implied that they don't still work on SI.  

*shrug* Im telling you for absolute certain there is a bug with the SI or blocks.
From experience.
If you build that tower, it will fall if you change materials exactly where you changed materials at.
If you are randomly offering some factoid and im just misunderstanding, my apologies.

[Kalen]

1 minute ago, Pichii said:

*shrug* Im telling you for absolute certain there is a bug with the SI or blocks.
From experience.
If you build that tower, it will fall if you change materials exactly where you changed materials at.
If you are randomly offering some factoid and im just misunderstanding, my apologies.

You said you build a tower of wood.... then attached a floor of steel to the tower.   If you exceed the total weight of what the wood can support (which you would quickly do with steel) it will all collapse.   I'm fairly certain it has always been that way.   But I'm not saying you shouldn't submit a bug report if you feel its a bug.... I'm just saying I don't think it is.

[Pichii]

13 hours ago, Kalen said:

You said you build a tower of wood.... then attached a floor of steel to the tower.   If you exceed the total weight of what the wood can support (which you would quickly do with steel) it will all collapse.   I'm fairly certain it has always been that way.   But I'm not saying you shouldn't submit a bug report if you feel its a bug.... I'm just saying I don't think it is.

Negative.
As you said yourself, building stright up isnt supposed to be checked. Yet it is.
Im done debating this with you my friend. lmao.

If you build a tower made of wood frames, 1 block high till the game wont let you- itll stand just fine.
If you change to a steel block anywhere on the wood frame tower, it breaks exactly at the steel block after a few blocks.
Even frames have mass and max weight.
It doesnt add up.

This isnt consistant nor intended behavior. xD Argue away.

[Laz Man]

On 9/19/2020 at 2:23 PM, Pichii said:

Yes.
Me and my friend are currently diagnosing this issue and it appears that the SI physics are breaking when you switch from 1 material to another in the same area.
Example: You build a tower of wood and add a floor of steel to the wood tower.
The tower crumbles because the weight of the steel is 20ea but wood can only support a max of 60. 4 blocks causes a SI break, when it should not.
The games SI check seems to be breaking when calculating two differnt material supports on the same area.
Also, it breaks when connecting things from the center too.

Example: a + shaped setup 2 blocks for each appendage and no center- supported by a wood frame all the way around in a square with 4corner supports.
2 steel blocks in middle with no center for the +.
THe structure still stands when each support is holding 40. You place another steel block in the center to fill the + in; the entire + collapses.
Add a frame to a side without the center for + and that side collapses with the steel. Wood foundation still stands.

However, you can still build a tower as far up as you want with just wood frame, rebar frame, ect.
You build a wood tower and add 6 steel blocks and the steel blocks collapse.
Im going to file a bug report for this issue if I cannot find one already existing.

Please do and include a video as it will help the QA team repro what your experiencing much easier.

[Kalen]

2 hours ago, Pichii said:

Negative.
As you said yourself, building stright up isnt supposed to be checked. Yet it is.
Im done debating this with you my friend. lmao.

If you build a tower made of wood frames, 1 block high till the game wont let you- itll stand just fine.
If you change to a steel block anywhere on the wood frame tower, it breaks exactly at the steel block after a few blocks.
Even frames have mass and max weight.
It doesnt add up.

This isnt consistant nor intended behavior. xD Argue away.

It's not really a debate, I'm trying to understand what you are experiencing.   I've tried to replicate the steps you've listed and I'm not getting the same results.

 

I built a tower of wood frames.... I made it about 50 blocks high..... at about 20 blocks, I put a steel block instead then went the rest of the way with wood frames.  It stood just fine.  Maybe I'm still misunderstanding you.... 

[Boidster]

14 hours ago, Pichii said:

If you build a tower made of wood frames, 1 block high till the game wont let you- itll stand just fine.
If you change to a steel block anywhere on the wood frame tower, it breaks exactly at the steel block after a few blocks.
Even frames have mass and max weight.
It doesnt add up.

 

A screenshot of your tower right before it fails would be super helpful. Weight limits only apply to what the side face of a block can support; there is no compression weight limit, as Kalen said. I still have 18.4 running and am quite willing to duplicate your example design in both versions to see if a new bug really has been introduced.

 

I get a lot of SI failures, but I can always explain it by me being stupid. I would love to determine that it's really a bug instead!

[Kalen]

On 9/19/2020 at 5:23 PM, Pichii said:

The tower crumbles because the weight of the steel is 20ea but wood can only support a max of 60.

Ah, I think I found your problem.... wood only supports 40, not 60

 

[Pichii]

On 9/24/2020 at 12:24 AM, Kalen said:

Ah, I think I found your problem.... wood only supports 40, not 60

 

Just curious but if you add a block into the center of the +, why does it still collapse then?
Stright across would be 60 but the structure itself is now braced?
Also, this still doesnt explain the entire wooden structure falling with a bracing setup ive used since A16 and know it worked on previous version of A19?

[Kalen]

Just now, Pichii said:

Just curious but if you add a block into the center of the +, why does it still collapse then?
Stright across would be 60 but the structure itself is now braced?

Because it still exceeds the total.... each of the 4 sides can hold 40, so 160 total.   9 steel blocks have a mass of 180.

[Pichii]

2 minutes ago, Kalen said:

Because it still exceeds the total.... each of the 4 sides can hold 40, so 160 total.   9 steel blocks have a mass of 180.

"each of the 4 sides can hold 40, so 160 total" This explains the steel for sure. Didnt know it was per side.

However, id still like to point out, it doesnt explain the collapse of the entire wood frame structure.
Like, i was framing a base and it collapsed with more than enough 'legs' to hold it up.

*Note the wood frame structure is unrelated to the above ASCI art graphic. :x